General Discussion Has Survived (just)

Community mods is a good idea, as long as theyre the right ones

 

Threatening to ban people because they disagree with a decision DTG are making just shows the attitude DTG has towards it's customers.

 

I would also like to state that Wikipedia, one of the largest sites on the Internet, is largely but not exclusively run by volunteer administrators.

I understand that Wikipedia is based in a different country and works on a different business model, but it shows that a site that the public can edit can be successfully moderated by its community.

 

Thats not a threat. Lol

 

Indeed, many of the thousands of 'independent' forums and sites across the internet.
I imagine Dovetail's concern is if anything happens in their name - although if they hand the forums to the community their name would likely be removed anyway. So I fail to see the issue with that one.

 

JJ-dogg,
Could you please just stop it now!!

One post from you would have been enough, but no – it’s precisely because of people like you that DTG decided to remove the General Discussion forum.

And all the users here spent 12 pages pleading with DTG not to do it, and pointing out that it might also require banning a user.

And what are you doing here? You want to have a pointless discussion about why you were banned – are you actually all right?
If I’d been candacedtg, I’d have given you a 24-hour ban here.

And please just reply to my post.

 

OK, can you please calm down?

I was just replying to someone in a way that was not related to anything me and Candace had said. Besides, we both have decided to stop talking about it, so why are you bringing it up?

I just made a simple reply to someone, and I was going to keep it that way. Dude, just relax, OK?

 

This guy will never learn .. so I just gave him a “Perma-Ban” myself - jj-dogg ——> ignore list. There are times one must take matters into their own hands and not wait for higher authorities .


I feel if more would take similar actions to the chronic offenders rather than reacting and engaging, many of the more “salty threads” would peter out quite quickly.

Edit - After thought - before someone comes in and starts they have the right to talk or criticize in any manner they want , I agree wholeheartedly with your freedom of speech - Spent 22 years in uniform protecting that right. But Freedom of speech does not mean I have to listen to nor read it.

good day

 

I understood that reference!

 

You were allegedly given 5 warnings though if I read that correctly.

 

Glad someone did

 

What did I just say? Candace and I have agreed that we are not going to talk about this in the general discussion.

 

Two quick notes:

There was a reference earlier in the thread to the allegedly small number of participants in the GD. However, if the previously quoted statistics are correct, this section has the overwhelming number of participants in the forums overall. Also, DTG should pay attention to the number of views in the threads, not just the posts. I, for one, do not post frequently, but I visit the GD daily - virtually never the other sections.

For an example of how independent forums can operate, take a look at Xplane.org. No affiliation whatever with Laminar Research, the developer of Xplane and has been running for years with strong moderator control. Unlike DTG, Laminar has close and responsive relations with it's user base, so criticism has a less tense outlet, but of course does not have the millstone of consoles limiting flexibility (no criticism of consoles themselves, just the limitations they impose)

 

Could you clarify what you wrote here, as there are two DTG employees on the list of moderators for /r/TrainSimWorld. If they aren't imposters pretending to be employees, they are still indirectly moderating the subreddit, and can potentially remove harmful comments to DTGs image?

 

Yeah, sure. I was just pointing out the contradiction is all.

 

What JJ did may have been wrong but ganging up on him is not much better.

Again behavior they want to curtail.

Theae GD threads shos the positives of having a GD forum, but at the same time they have shown its flaws and why DTG want to get rid of them as well.

It would be missed but I won't be that upset if it goes.

 

Yeah I know I’ve seen them post semi-regularly, they were also pretty active around the leaking of a couple of TSW versions.

They certainly step in when they want to - not saying it’s a bad thing but they absolutely can & do exercise control over that particular community.

 

No, nor was that the reason for her statement. All the stuff DTG lets go, yet people never stop trying.

 

Thank you! Like, I can't stress how guilty I feel for causing a back and forth between me and a mod in a general forum. I feel bad enough as it is, so to be ganged up on, it makes me feel like I’m some sort of pariah.

 

Gratitude.

 

As Bob Mortimer used to say, on Vic Reeves' Big Night Out, "that was MY idea". In a different thread, though, and not exactly as some are remembering:

 

Is it really a good idea to start having a go at the staff at the one moment we want them to reconsider their decision? No wonder they want to shut down the forums, it is almost as if some people are trying to accelerate its demise! Have some self introspection for heavens sake.

 

This conspiracy nonsense that we're closing GD to silence criticism has to stop. The CM's allow all feedback as long as it is within the rules. We need criticism when things aren't right to know what we should be fixing! It's actually far more important than praise in most cases when written correctly. I believe one of the CM's cleared that up earlier in the thread.

 

I've been away from the forums for a short while, but normally I like to read discussions regarding upcoming DLC:s and be a passenger onboard the hype trains. We have some well known and respected users contributing a lot to the community and then we have some weirdos for sure (remember Synthetic Angel?) Without forums I will probably have much less interest in buying some nice routes/locos on release day. I know there will still be preview streams etc, but the feeling of something new coming will just not be the same, it will be more like a bunch of zeroes and ones with no "speculation and discussion history" between roadmap announcement and the release day. Hopefully you understand what I mean.

 

Thank you Sir... It was an adventurious time --- Honored to serve

 

We could always start hiding our discussion in the feedback threads?

"Unfortunately I had an issue with this service not working, which really made me think about..."

"The scenery is absolutely breathtaking, it really reminded me of that time back in the day with..."

"Unfortunately I won't be buying this one because of "*reasons*, it was far too similar to that time when..."

 

Bring in the TSW version of VAR.

Call it FAR - Forum Assistant Referee.

Go too FAR and it's a ban!

 

Only if we can cut to a live video feed of the Community manager that's been put on FAR standing proudly at their computer in a referee outfit like they do in the football.

 

They've been clearing that up for years. Maybe someday...

 

thank you for all of the input and attention you’ve given us over the last couple of days. i absolutely agree with the idea of this community corner; whilst general discussion in its current state may be gone in a few days time, i think it’s still crucial that we have an area that has the same functions and purpose

 

Just start commenting on another thread man and let this one cool down for a bit.

 

Can we get yellow and red flags too?
And a proper conductor's hat too of course.

 

It seems like negotiations between the Forums Community and DTG are underway.

It seems like all eyes are on Monday, for the final verdict.

A large number of DTG staff members are currently off due to it being the weekend.

I imagine Monday is an ample time to come to a conclusion on the matter. And put this to rest.

whatever the verdict is, this choice is out of our hands, if DTG goes ahead with this, despite the backlash to it, we have no control over it.

if this goes ahead, it will be the end of the forums, and a sad day.

 

I'm extremely sorry to be losing the beating heart of this forum, but I'm also sorry because for me it feels symptomatic of a deeper malaise.

In the context of longstanding, ongoing and seemingly insoluble issues with the TSW core, plus DTG giving the appearance of washing their hands of new route development and leaving it to third parties, plus the cancellation of a much-typed new IP, plus the almost unbearable pressures on the gaming industry in general, it feels like another nail in the TSW coffin, and potentially the DTG coffin too. Sorry to be so negative, but we've had few reasons for optimism for some time now, and with so many devs going to the wall the relentless problems and rancour we're seeing surrounding TSW and the community which sustains it feels like a very bad omen.

Regarding the forum specifically, hopefully talk of an independent alternative will be more than just talk and we can find a new home to chat about our hobby. I'm not going to waste time debating the economic and practical considerations to DTG's decision to shut down General Discussion, except to say that in the short to medium term at least it will undoubtedly hit DTG in the pocket as I and others will buy less DLC without the excitement, insights and hype generated in these threads.

I've been playing TSW since the 2020 iteration, have owned and played the arse off every single subsequent 'annual update' ever since with a total XBOX playtime of around 2,000 hours at least, and have purchased around 100 DLCs. From the very beginning this forum, and specifically TSW General Discussion, has been an absolutely invaluable source of information and inspiration and I will miss it. Thanks to all of you that have made the forum a place I've enjoyed regularly visiting, and all the best!

 

The timing of all of this, given the inevitable announcement of Train Sim World 7 in the coming weeks, does seem to indicate that Dovetail Games wants to avoid the bad publicity of the annual release instead of actually making the game worth buying. As others have discussed, we have reached a point where the Train Sim World codebase is nearly a decade old. It is clear to me that this game is getting pushed really far. What Dovetail Games should be doing, in my opinion, is fixing Train Sim World 6 and then putting focus into developing a UE5 Train Simulator instead of a Train Sim World 7.

 

I have been a member of these forums since the day they opened and to be brutal, I can say I have not seen any instances where DTG squashed legitimate constructive criticism. Yes some post have been deleted but more from the caustic personal attacks, comments spammed across multiple threads, plane out arguments for argument sake. Some people have been banned not for criticism of the product itself, but their presentation of such criticisms.

So to state the conspiracy theory they are doing so to squash criticism to me is ludicrous. As some CM s who are still in these forums have pointed out… is the constant need to quell useless arguing, trolling and really unnecessary angst such causes. Calling Developers lazy, incompetent, liars, uncaring slobs that only care about money would probably never happen in a face to face conversation, but only by those that hide behind keyboards.

While I dislike the approach or decision to end this category, we, as the community, are culpable for some of the current situation.

I know I am of much older generation, but one of my guidelines while interacting in the forums ( or any social interaction really) is “ what would my Mother think of my behavior”. Laugh if you will, but it does give one pause if that snappy comment, name calling or angry rebuttal is really necessary.

 

I don’t fully lean into ‘quashing criticism’ reasoning, but I do think it’s at least a factor.
DTG have been getting flak for a few years now over the renumbering & release tactic, along with a very widespread complaint over the console issues. So much community media around TSW now includes ‘blurry textures’ as a talking point.

Outside of TSC & TSW communities, DTG has a very poor reputation, to the point it’s difficult to bring up these titles without the first response being negative. I think that broadly bad reputation is now becoming overwhelming behind the curtains, simply because of how terrible the console experience has become.

I think DTG has always struggled trying to become bigger, whether it’s doing yearly releases, building for consoles, publishing for other devs or making new games - they’ve pretty consistently fell on their face. I think this forum decision is both a PR & big business oriented decision. They’re probably not happy we’ve been consistently able to guess when the next game comes out & the first thing we do with it is say we don’t want it. They’re equally likely unhappy that searching TSW stuff often leads to their forum where one of the most consistent & prominent issue is the console experience.

Overall I think there are several factors built into this decision & it’s faulty logic to say ‘they haven’t done it before so they aren’t doing it now’.

 

Yeah it’s always been my stance that they never had enough time between TSW3 & 4 to properly develop it, then when they were playing catchup they compounded the issue with 5.

Honestly I think the biggest reason they do it is so they can ‘sunset’ content from fixes & they see it as a bizarre way to keep the game optimised by boxing off core variations. I know they’ve always used the line it’s the best way for visibility, but it’s not like there aren’t ways to spotlight your game updates & also I’d have to wonder how their strategy is fairing given the ever increasing wave of AI slop releases on storefronts.

I guess we’ll see how TSW7 shapes up with DTG effectively letting Rivet develop for them, I thought TSW6 was really great in the first few weeks but it quickly became clear there was still no focus on core health or quality control.

 

I share Es4t's opinion. I would also say something to the members here that I could also say to the devs, as you have probably seen yesterday. As professional as they are, and they are productive in how they make their games, they can say some questionable things that I can disagree with. But then again, I can be questionable and abrasive and loud. Contradicting opinions are probably what make a communication so enticing.

Whatever happens with this discussion, it’ll be upsetting. But we are all human and we have our own lives. It’s going to take a lot more than a discussion forum to tear us down.

 

People are human. Sometimes honest criticism does appear as "mean" even if it's honest. If I say well, you can't get a date because you're fat... you should exercise more and watch your diet".... that could be objectively true but also "mean" and NOT what the other person wants to hear. That would be called "rude" by quite a few people. The person having the problem dating might even recognize that or be "working on it" but they still don't want to hear it.
That's often compounded because let's be fair some of us are very socially awkward at best.
Yes there are people that are mean or insulting.
However, much of it is perception, tone and social awkwardness.
Add into that frustration with something people are passionate about, and you get quite a mess sometimes.
Very few however if you asked them would say their intent was to be insulting or rude.
Again... it comes down to perception and that's a very personal tricky thing to judge.

 

Maybe if they addressed the criticisms about the blurry textures and stopped the yearly releases, people wouldn't complain about them anymore.

 

Consider the criticisms about the blurry texture?
They shouldn't even be selling a product like that.
What would you think if a car dealer saw a car with patchy paint?

 

Nothing wrong with contrary opinions and nothing in my post even comes close to saying everyone should think the same. And if one puts forth criticism in a respectful manner, there is no need to hide behind a keyboard. I concur that difference of opinions put forth in a respectful and non emotional manner does lead to improvements. But stating devs are incompetent, lazy, uncaring does cloud the debate, moving away from the just of the debate to put others into a defensive stance. You can disagree, but that is what I learned over many decades of conflict resolution in my career…

anyway I do hope this sub- forum remains

best

 

Well if people still bought the cars, the dealer wouldn’t bother spending money to sort them out.

It’s exactly the issue with blurry textures, it’s obviously not enough of a problem to drop sales. Just look at the feedback threads, you can see the same handful of people talking about how bad they are in that route, but then they’re saying the same thing after they bought the next one & the one after that. Even ambassadors have now taken to saying things like ‘they’re there but I’ve seen worse so it’s not that bad’. An easy thing to say for people who get their content library for free after moving it over to PC.

Customers putting more money into TSW has never solved any issue we’ve had with it, other than increasing the quantity of DLC.

 

I think there is definitely room for discussion and for finding a middle ground. As far as I’m concerned, the general discussion section can remain open, but very simply: if you want to start a thread, it should always require approval from a moderator first. This way, we can limit the number of threads, and people who want to discuss something will first need to search the forum to see whether a thread already exists and whether they can find the information there or contribute with their own story or question. This could take a lot of work off the moderators’ shoulders.

The question, however, is whether they will keep all existing threads. Ninety percent of the threads are duplicates that basically say the same thing, so it might be an option to only keep what the community considers truly important (which has already been mentioned). The forum really needs to be reduced in size it currently takes up so many gigabytes of data, which means extra server storage and costs, so cleaning it up is definitely necessary.

In short, there is plenty to consider in terms of what can be done, but people will also need to accept that not all expectations can be met.

 

They would say "that's extra lightweight paint, it makes the car go faster".

 

Whatever they need to do to keep a general discussion area open is fine with me.

The difference between a hobbyist forum general discussion area and my experience with various Discord servers over the years is that on a forum, I don't have to read about someone's UwU furry feet obsessions and other such nonsense when I'm just trying to discuss my hobby of interest. I'd like to keep that. But hey, maybe the TSW Discord is different (I doubt it). I won't be joining it to find out. Much like this forum tends to skew toward a given demographic, I find that to also be the case for Discord. The platform's reputation speaks for itself.

No online community is above reproach. In many cases, they simply have different expressions of similar problems (egoism, etc.).

inb4 "oldmanyellsatcloud" etc etc.

 

Are duplicate threads the REAL huge issue? A thread that's not commented on just drops off quickly and one that is getting commented on is popular so it's justified having it.

Isn't the bigger issue moderation of the community guidelines on attacking other users?

 

Agree totally. Not to mention that duplicate threads can be easily merged by the mods...you know, moderating and all.