British Locos/rolling Stock With Switched-off Lights (ai) And Missing Driver Models.

Are there any plans to sort out the following:

HST - no cab light and missing driver.
166 - no cab light.
101 - no cab light or passenger lights.
37 - no cab light.
31 - no cab light and missing driver on Tees Valley (driver appears on West Somerset).
47 - no cab light on Trans Pennine and West Somerset, no marker lights on West Somerset.
45 - no cab light.
40 - no cab light.
08 - no cab light.
09 - no cab light or marker lights.
Mk1 - no passenger lights on West Somerset.
33 - no cab light or marker lights.
52 - no cab light or marker lights.

I tend to avoid services that take place early in the morning or late at night because the lack of AI train lighting is that much more noticeable and thus more immersion breaking. I'm assuming that this is an oversight as the 66 has all it's lights on, even those in the rear facing cab.
Can anyone confirm if AI controlled Electrostars will have their interior lights on?

 

Why on earth would an AI train be driving with cab lights on? You aren't even allowed to drive with cab lights on?

 

Every loco / unit you've mentioned has cab lights!
The 101 on NTP and TVL doesn't have passenger lights on during darkness (AI) you have to activate them manually if you are driving though.

 

I'm aware that they have lights, what I meant was that their lights are not switched on. I'm fairly certain that having both interior and exterior lights turned on is standard practice irrespective of the time of day. Passing a 101 in Standedge tunnel in complete darkness (apart from markers), for example, is extremely odd.

 

Well there's a reason you don't drive with interior lights on at night, same as reason as why you don't do that in your car. That's what instrument lights, desk lights etc. are for. Also, if you're aware they exist, what's the big deal? Just switch them on if you really want them on...

Them being on in the CL66 is a bug most likely, especially if it's the rear cab as well.

 

Where did you get this idea from? It’s not normal but there’s nothing stopping you from doing so.

There are still issues, however, of AI trains running with no lights or tail lights at the front.

 

Would someone with practical knowledge of actual railroading please respond to this thread? I lack that knowledge, but it seems to me that all trains running during hours of darkness should display running lights (markers or headlights, depending on the country) and that running with cab lights on or off during those same hours should make no difference. Keep in mind that highway conditions and railway conditions are completely different in regard to exterior lighting, since railroad engines run on tracks and are controlled by dispatchers. Can switches be thrown by mistake (or malice)? Of course, but that strikes me as the exception, not the rule.

 

In the UK, all trains on the mainline network MUST have headlights on at the front and tail lights at the rear regardless of whether it’s day time or night time. If daylight, then lights will be set to ‘day running’ (headlight will be on the right/non driver’s side and marker light on left/driver’s side). If night time, then lights will be set to ‘night running’ (opposite to day running so headlight will be on left/driver’s side and marker light on right/non drivers side. Having said this, new trains or refurbished trains now seem to have headlights at both sides and tend to be blinding for drivers going past- for example, Class 68/88, 800, etc... which we might see in future content. Tail lights on passenger trains are 2 red lights. For freight trains, it is just a tail lamp fitted on the rear vehicle/trailer.

There are very strict rules about failure of headlights even if it’s day time and even if the marker lights are working. If headlight failure, 20mph maximum unless a portable headlamp can be obtained in which 75mph maximum.

If taking a train to a depot, when you are within depot limits, this is the only time headlights aren’t used and instead you would change the lights to marker lights (marker lights on both sides) at the front of the train (tail lights still at rear). This is so that you aren’t blinding railway staff/shunters in the depot.

This is the basics although there are so many other confusing rules for the out of course situations, etc... Here are a few examples:
1. If making a wrong direction move of less than 400m, you don’t change the lights over so tail lights would be at the front of the movement and headlights at the rear- By the way, you can’t just flick it into reverse; if you have overran the station, you have to demobilise the cab, do the walk of shame to the other cab, set the cab up (remember, leave exterior lights as they are) and drive from there.

2. Shunting locomotives in depots will have one tail and one marker light on each end of the locomotive- e.g. the 08 pilot engine on the West Somerset Railway. This is because they are constantly going forwards and backwards. (Most normal mainline trains are not capable of this, usually just shunt locomotives confined to depots)

3. If on a locomotive/unit going to rescue a train and you need to do a wrong direction move in order to access the failed train, you have headlights in both directions.

4. If you ever do see 1 tail light instead of 2 on a passenger train, it is because the auxiliaries have been tripped- usually this would be done in a depot for maintenance purposes so you shouldn’t see this.

I made a post a few days ago on a different thread about tail lights and how it should automatically be on when you select a service in TSW. It might be of interest to you as I explain the importance of tail lights and what lighting should be select for intermediate cabs in multiple formations to ensure fail-safe method of working with regard to accidental train division.
https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/tail-lights-and-short-platforms.19779/#post-112501

With regard to interior lights, there is nothing wrong with having the cab light on or off depending on your choice. Most drivers would have it off but if you’re scared of the dark...

 

Generally true, but you don't have to go back many years for running without front lights at all to be fine on some lines, in Britain at least. Although main line trains have used indicator lights since the nineteenth century, where I worked in the eighties and nineties (not a main line) only required a headlight at night if we were to go over an automated level crossing, until (as I recall) the early 1990s, when headlights become compulsory. Where I worked never had tail lights at all, although of course main line railways did.

Cab lights were always turned off, without exception, because the reflection on the windscreen affected your ability to see signals, as well as wrecking your night vision. Perhaps it is different on modern trains with all sorts of safety devices in the cab. On DMUs, drivers would always close the blinds between the cab and the passenger saloon at night because of the reflection from the saloon lighting (this option isn't available in TSW, which I find rather odd, although TSW does not really render reflections on glass at all).

Possibly, but unless you are shunting in a yard at 10 mph or less, you would have no chance of stopping in time if you saw the switch blades set incorrectly. There are only very limited circumstances where drivers are even expected to look at switch blades, so not being able to see them at night is no handicap.

 

Haha haha, are you even a driver or you didn’t read what I wrote? I said wrong direction move when you are an assisting train moving towards a failed train. I’ll give you another chance to read before I embarrass you by showing you the exact quotation in the rule book.

 

Oh and while you’re at it, please let me know where it says I can’t have my light on in the cab. I’ll be sure to speak to my driver managers so they brief everyone and put an operational notice up in the booking on point. Thanks in advance

 

Probably because it’s so rare for trains having to be rescued and even rarer for a wrong direction move in this situation... just as much as, for example, having to use an Signal Post Telephone (for a driver) to speak to the signaller is almost never done now. You said I was incorrect, but the rulebook clearly states the contrary. Interesting, in the biannual rules test we have to do, this exact question comes up so it’s something the company takes seriously. I don’t believe you’re a driver, I think you’re someone whose jealous of drivers because you’ve failed to be able to become one yourself. OR maybe you’re one of these anoraks who work for West Coast Railways or some other heritage company who think the rulebook doesn’t apply to them hence why they isolate the AWS/TPWS on a steam train without permission from the signaller and nearly collide with a HST at Wooten Bassett junction which is why they lost their mainline license for 8 months or so.

You failed to address the second part. I tell you what... if you, a driver manager, platform staff, train enthusiast, etc... ever come up to my cab and challenge me about my light being on, I will indeed turn if off. Oh and by the way, my key will be taken out and a swift call to control and the signaller will be made to let them know that I’m refusing to take the train further due to harassment. I write this in jest, I hope, because I have not heard something so preposterous in my life... not allowed to have a cab light on... what planet are you on.... there’s no way you’re a driver

For the rest of the community here, I’ll attach the screenshot of the rulebook so you understand what we are talking about. And, as a driver, if I did see a locomotive/train making a wrong direction move towards a failed train with tail lights on towards me, an urgent call (yellow button on the GSMR) will be made to the signaller to let them know immediately, that’s of course the below situation doesn’t happen to me.* The reason why this rule is in place is so it doesn't cause alert to other drivers; remember the rule book and rail industry as a whole is reactive not proactive. Only when something happens (incident, accident, derailment, etc...), will they make a new rule to prevent it from happening again so something must have happened in history for this rule to come into force.

*Just to picture it: there are two lines; one is the Up Main and the other is the Down Main; you’re travelling on the Up Main at 125mph; a Class 57 on the Down Main is travelling in the same direction as you with tail lights on the rear (side facing you); remember, no one has told you anything untoward is happening; it’s pitch black and raining, you come around the bend and see tail lights; you **** your pants and hit the emergency plunger thinking that it’s on your line and an emergency call to the signaller.

edit: image taken down so you’ll have to believe me

 

A) I never said once I was a driver. B) I respect all grades, C) your arrogance is amazing.

 

No, your arrogance is amazing because you’re saying I’m wrong when I’m a driver and clearly telling you something contrary to what you’re saying and you’re still arguing and won’t admit you’re wrong. All you had to say was sorry that you made a mistake but no, too much pride so you just basically tell me that A) I’m talking rubbish even though I’m a driver B) The rulebook is talking rubbish even though it is what ALL drivers must follow- this is the basis of driver training and is something we get assessed on regularly.

Yes, drivers seem to get a reputation for being ‘arrogant’ and ‘big headed’ especially from staff of your grade or other customer service staff; rather, some staff such as yourself can be so rude and jealous which is why we won’t bother saying hello, etc,,,, You’re not anonymous and so it is interesting to note that ‘you want to be a driver later in your career;’ that will never happen with your lack of respect towards your (would be) driver instructors, rulebook and working instructions and you would be a very dangerous person to be put in charge of a train on the mainline.

For the benefit of the rest of the community here and for the posters who asked the question initially, could you please stop being big headed and kill your pride, just admit you’ve made a mistake and edit you’re initial post to say what you’ve said is wrong. Some people may may genuinely find my post interesting and informative; your post is misleading and incorrect so please take it down to avoid confusing people.

 

I would happily admit I was wrong if it wasn't for your big-headed attitude. I'm not jealous of drivers, get over yourself. You don't know me, you're wrong, I'm not jealous, far from it. But again your arrogance "look me I'm a driver, you're not a driver I am the driver!" attitude is wholly down to you, I have nothing against the driver grade, but I have an issue with arrogant people like yourself. You certainly do not help that reputation.

"All I had to do was say sorry", to inflate your already overinflated ego on a power trip? Nah. Your immediate response "I’ll give you another chance to read before I embarrass you", how arrogant and big headed, let alone condescending attitude is that? Get out of it.

 

Ok, I apologise.

I’ll ask you again, for the benefit the community, can you please edit your initial post; it is confusing and misleading.

Have a nice day

 

I have removed my original comment as it transpires I was wrong. I apologise

 

Thanks. Hey, I apologise too. It can be frustrating when I make a large informative post and someone pulls a one liner saying that I’m wrong when, with respect, they don’t really know what they’re talking about.

Sorry again and have a nice weekend

 

Ah internet forums. They do tend to get rather heated often over relatively minor comments. Glad to see you have both resolved things between you.

However Olaf the Snowman on your image above it does say at the top "Printing of this manual is not permitted". Posting it on a forum probably includes this I would think. Maybe best if you deleted it, just in case. Don't want you to get into trouble for breaking the rules of the rulebook.

 

haha, yeah when you read back a day later, you think to yourself “why on Earth was I acting like a complete moron.”
To be fair, I probably come across as an annoying 10year old kid with my profile rather than a professional driver haha

Thanks for that, I’ll remove it now

 

Well you are an actor so let's just say you were playing a part...
Enjoy the rest of the weekend.

 

Good grief! My simple request for information based upon professional experience has fallen victim to two towering egotists! At first, I thought my question had been answered, now I'm not sure who or what to believe.
I'll try again, in different terms: will someone with professional experience please provide a link to a book of regulations regarding the use of engine lights that can be read without getting caught up in a porridge-tossing battle? Also, rule books that cover German and U.S. railroads would be welcome -- perhaps other nations as well, such as Canada and Italy, even though they have yet to be represented in TSW.

 

It depends on the era as well, of course. Olaf is a current driver so he is well placed to answer any questions about the rules in Britain today.

Historically, very few British locomotives or multiple units had headlights that had any degree of intensity, but used indicators to identify the type of train to railway workers. On steam locomotives, white-painted oil lamps were used, and early diesel locomotives used discs, as seen in one version of the TSW class 40. They were lit at night, but were barely visible at a distance, and weren't there to provide warning, as such. The 1950 rule book says:

119 Each engine, or leading engine when two or more engines are coupled together and each rail motor, motor train, or electric train, or push and pull train must carry the prescribed head lamps, discs, or indicators, and destination boards where provided. The head lamps and indicators must be alight after sunset and during fog or falling snow, and where otherwise specified.​

In general, this policy continued up until 1976, when headcodes ceased to be used and there was no need to identify the type of train by lamps or discs. The appropriate rule from the 1972 rule book (before this change) is similar to the 1950 version, except now lamps need to be lit during the daytime as well. There is still no mention of headlights, and I suspect that 1972 must just predate their introduction on some routes, such as the Mid Wales Line from Shrewsbury to Llanelli.

7. 1.1 Before starting, Drivers must ensure that the prescribed headcode or indicators are correctly exhibited and in good order. They must be illuminated by day and night except when the train or locomotive is stabled.​

Subsequent rules say that in the event of all lamps failing, the driver should use a handlamp (part of a driver's essential equipment). Handlamps are designed to fit on locomotive lamp brackets.

Destination blinds also had to illuminated at day and night when the train was in service.

Tail lamps are a little more interesting. Following a rule that says that all trains must have "a tail lamp in working order on the rear of the last vehicle" (it no longer mentions "properly cleaned and trimmed" as the 1950 book does, when tail lamps were almost invariably oil lamps), we then find the lamp does not always have to be turned on:

7.3.5 In every case the tail lamp must show a red light after sunset, during fog or falling snow, when passing through tunnels in a section where there is a block failure, or where otherwise specified.​

I won't go through all the arrangements for lamps with divided trains or wrong line working, but finally we come to:

12.2 Lights on shunting locomotives
Locomotives employed exclusively for shunting at stations or yards will, by day and night, exhibit one red light and one white light at both ends of the locomotive, one over each buffer.​

I can find nothing in the 1972 rule book about cab lights, but since drivers had to physically see often rather dimly-lit track-side signals, I can assure you that cab lights were invariably turned off when running at night, at least until very recently.

I mention all this even though TSW does not have any British routes from before 1976, because it sets the tone for what followed.

By 1988, headcodes of all descriptions had been abandoned (except possibly on the Southern Region), and marker lights were the norm, either two dots in the headcode box (as in the TSW class 31) or built-in marker lights like the class 45 and 47. Proper headlights were being introduced, and the Tees Valley class 37 has both a headlight and a pair of marker lights.

The 1988 rule book is essentially the same as the 1972 one, but removes any reference to "prescribed headcode or indicators" and adds a note about headlights:

8.1 Headlights, Marker lights and Headcodes
8.1 .1 The Driver must by day and night ensure that:
(a) marker and/or headcode lights at the front of the train are illuminated when on a running line or whenever moving on any line or siding
(b) where provided, one headlight is illuminated (and the correct day/night beam is in use) whenever moving on a running line. The headlight must not be used in depots, yards or sidings or when stabled on a running line​

The tail lamp rule has been simplified, and the new rule about tunnels means tail lamps now needed to be illuminated during the day on many routes:

8.3 Tail lamps
8.3.1 The Guard must ensure that his train has a tail lamp in working order on the rear of the last vehicle when on a running line or through/reception siding. The tail lamp must show a red light during darkness, fog or falling snow and when passing through a tunnel.​

Incidentally, the answer to the question about wrong line running was different in 1988 from how things are today. The 1988 rule book makes no specific mention about rescuing a failed train, but simply says:

8.7.1 If the train is to move in the wrong direction for more than 1/4 mile (or 400 metres), the headlights, marker lights and headcodes must be illuminated in accordance with this Section H at the leading end of the movement and a red light at the rear. When such illumination is not available, a handlamp(s) may be used instead.​

Again, there is no mention of cab lights.

There was another major update to the 1972 rule book in 1990, but I don't have a copy. The really big change was in 1996 when the first version of the current rule book was introduced.

 

Thanks, Trim -- that's the most thorough and well-researched reply I can recall seeing in these forums.