PC Missing A Stop

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by rat7_mobile, Apr 12, 2020.

  1. rat7_mobile

    rat7_mobile Well-Known Member

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    In the Tree Valley scenarios, I often miss stop because of the badly working braking system in the flat nose passenger train,

    So by the time I get the train to stop, 90% of the times I am a few 1000 m pass the station, and when I back up to the station. there is a red light for the track I am supposed to be using, and it never goes back to green, I waitted for 30 minutes

    So my question is, how do I get to finish these run, since the game does let you do it at a speed that it can be stopped proplerly

    PS that same thing is happening with the Peninsular Coridor scenario as well

    PS do not give me another lecture on how to use the LAP, as the only way to make those trains to slow/stop is to empty the air tank, and once it is stopped to get back forward at slow speed
     
  2. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    Apply the brakes sooner.
     
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  3. rat7_mobile

    rat7_mobile Well-Known Member

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    If I apply the brake sooner, then I miss the station ahead of time, there is no way to make it works with these rediculous brake system

    Since those brake are a ll or nothing deal. also it takes like 5 minutes each time you aplly the brake for them to recharge
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2020
  4. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    First thing to look for in the cab is the brake application gauge (not the air tanks, the actual brake pipe pressure)
    When applying the brakes, as in going PAST lap to apply, this gauge will go up and you will slow down properly. If you just dump the entire reservoir then you're probably not braking as hard as you would if you did it properly
    I know TSW documentation is pretty LOVE on this, but you should get some idea from this one:

    It's in a BR class 101 but the principles are the same
     
  5. rat7_mobile

    rat7_mobile Well-Known Member

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    But the problem is there is no information about what is the brake pressure, and beside by the time I get to see some sign of slowing down the tank is already empty.

    And the one in the picture, is the tree valley and the northern pennsylvania, and this one as no gauge that are working, and I have to guess when the brakes are full, and it is easy to know it is empty, there is no more leaking noise
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2020
  6. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    If it's the 101 on the Tees Valley line you're on about then it's the same unit as the one I just sent in the video... Same gauge and everything...
     
  7. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Just had a quick look, if you're using the normal HUD in game, the brake vacuum gauge is also simulated on the HUD, bottom right dial is titled "VAC" and this shows the brake pressure
     
  8. rat7_mobile

    rat7_mobile Well-Known Member

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    but it does not show what pressure to apply for braking, and the recharged tank is about half way in the gauge, I presume that it is calibrated for other train, and therefore only show partial information

    And that same gauge in the american train is showing the fuel level
     
  9. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    The ONLY way to be able to operate these trains properly is to operate the brakes as intended, which relies on using the LAP position on the brakes to hold the correct brake pressure. Emptying the air tank is not the way to do it. As you say, this has been explained to you in depth on more than one occasion, so no point going over it again here.

    To be blunt, maybe a train simulator just isn’t the game for you, unless you just want to drive the easier trains and leave the ones with lapping brakes alone. There is no other way of driving them than using the brakes the correct way and therefore no other way anyone here can help you.
     
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  10. rat7_mobile

    rat7_mobile Well-Known Member

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    Is there not a way to change the settings of the brake so it would work like the german train, one step on the brake and you from 200km to 0 in a few seconds, the two passenger in the USA and in the tree valley have the weirdes braking system ever, and no wonder no one ride the trian in the USA or Britain
     
  11. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately not, they come as they are.
     
  12. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    In real life the trains don't work that way. A full HST at 125mph takes about 2 miles to perform a full stop,

    The 101, being designed and built in the 50s, these things are seriously analogue, so things like regulators etc hadn't been invented (those are what control application, lapping etc in modern locos)

    You can either learn to deal with things as they were (and don't forget these units ran for almost fifty years in mainline service, the last of which to be withdrawn is still operational in preservation to this date (53 years old) shows that they DO work and CAN be driven) or go drive something else.

    On the dial I would aim for about 10 and then go from there. If you're slowing too much then increase SOME pressure (not all of it unless that's what you want) and if you're not slowing enough then release the pressure SOME and the brakes will apply more.
     
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  13. rat7_mobile

    rat7_mobile Well-Known Member

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  14. Olaf the Snowman

    Olaf the Snowman Well-Known Member

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    I have to agree. We’ve had this discussion before and I did recommend in that thread to play around with the turbo (Class 166) for a while as it such an easy traction to operate. Once you’ve perfected that, then move on to the next difficulty. You wouldn’t play a shooter for the first time and choose Insane difficulty so why do it on TSW?

    I’ve always said and I will say again that enjoy the game anyway you want so of course, I’m not saying only drive the turbo and nothing else. But if you want to get better at the game and genuinely learn to operate traction properly, you need to start at the basics and there is nothing more simpler than a turbo- combined power brake controller, instantaneous brake response with 3 step brake, a flat and straight route (GWML) and just a giant speedometer right in front of you... what’s not to like. There’s nothing to be embarrassed about because operating trains are not easy and can take lots of practice so let’s start small. If you’re able to take videos or screen capture, then post it here and we can give advice on how you’re doing,
     
  15. rat7_mobile

    rat7_mobile Well-Known Member

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    But you can not choose what you are driving when you are in the journey of the scenario, you have to drive the train that is given to you at the time, beside, I do not have any problem with any of the other train that have a good working braking system

    And the foundametal of my question is, what do I have to do to get the green light back to continue the run, when I have back tracked to the station, loaded the passengers, but I never ger the reen again, it is stuck in RED

    PS I to not own any camera, video or still, so I can not make a video or take pictures
     
  16. LT586

    LT586 Well-Known Member

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    Try driving the Class 101 as a starting point. The American locos I am unfamiliar with but it’s not step braking it’s a lap so apply some pressure, apply some more, get your speed down to 30mph approaching a station.

    1.5 miles out from a Station you should be doing 40 or 45 then by 0.9 you should be 30, by time you’re 500 or so yards out you should be 25 and 300 yards 9-10mph

    Really keep an eye on the brakes, hold it in lap and watch the gauges, apply, let go, apply let go, and leave it in hold.

    But it’s a case of learning, thankfully if you’ve played Train Simulator, a Class 68, 86 and others are similar
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2020
  17. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

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    First off, if you blasted past a station in real life, you would be looking for another job immediately. Second, TSW is a simulator (even with all its warts) as many explained and one must learn the systems and how they work, third, I find the the older style lap brakes to be very easy to use once you understand them.

    Many others have giving you some very good advice and approaches on how to use the brakes. Trains are not going to react like cars when it comes to brakes. You have to:anticipate, just like when I drove ships for a living, momentum is a b**ch. As a very rough rule of thumb, dependent on weight of the train and speed, I will straight setting up for a stop about 1.5 miles out - power off, apply a few psi of brake pressure with the goal to cross the platform end at no more than 30 mph. Very easy to do with lap brakes. If you are slowing too much, you should have enough room to release and continue to creep to desired stop, then with such low momentum, apply just enough to come to a smooth stop.

    It does take practice and a willingness to learn the systems and routes, but is very satisfying with this older equipment to come to a stop on the mark with a single brake application.
     
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  18. Olaf the Snowman

    Olaf the Snowman Well-Known Member

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    That’s a gross exaggeration. Across the country, station overrun or fail to call happens dozens of time a year. Normally usually down to forgetting that you’re booked to stop there rather than misjudging your braking though. It will go down as a safety of the line incident and there will be a meeting with your manager, an action plan, etc... but it’s not the end of the world and you almost certainly would never be sacked over one incident.
     
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  19. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

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    Not sure which systems you are familiar, but having a driver that has blasted through a station usually will include a SPAD. Not many operating companies View drivers with SPADs as a good risk. Definitely not going to get one an employee of the quarter award and too many repeated offenses probably are not tolerated.
     
  20. Olaf the Snowman

    Olaf the Snowman Well-Known Member

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    Sorry but it’s untrue. SPADs and station overruns happen occasionally but surprisingly, station overrun and SPAD together are extremely uncommon and I certainly haven’t heard of one at my company for a long time. Most stations have a proceed aspect at the end of the station. It’s only a few big stations that you’re always checked down to and have a red at the end of platform because it is a station where TRTS needs to be operated by the dispatcher such as Reading. When’s the last time you’ve heard Reading (or similar) being overran? Also, due to the very nature of big stations and all the junctions and crossovers, it is TPWS’d to death so you have no choice but to come in slowly otherwise you’ll get tripped- so even if you wanted to SPAD, it ain’t going to happen because the grids will get to you first.

    When you have a red at the end of a small(ish) station- take Slough as an example- you’re going to be extremely cautious because 9.5 times out of 10 youre running on greens when coming to Slough. So on the unusual occurrence it’s a red, you’re going to have adrenaline running through your body and therefore be extremely cautious. Not to mention, TOCs defensive driving policy where you got to be 20mph 200 yards away from the red, etc...

    I’ve said in the previous post and I’ll say it again, the most common reason why people overrun a station is due to forgetting that they are stopping there in the first place. Once they’ve realised, it’s too late and they might overrun the station by a few coach lengths if not more. Obviously in these scenarios, you wouldn’t be coming down to a red and therefore no SPAD would occur. It is extremely rare that overeats happen due drivers misjudging their braking; perhaps a couple in the autumn during slippery season but otherwise very rare.


    Agreed but it’s very different to what you said previously about looking for another job immediately which was an exaggeration. The only way that would happen is if you have had several incidents in a short space of time OR you were under the influence of alcohol/drugs OR you were using your mobile phone as there is a zero tolerance policy to this now.

    Come to think of it, re-reading your first statement, are you possibly talking about something like the underground or light railways? If a station overrun will usually include a SPAD, it’s the only example I can think of because you’re always approaching a red. I can’t really think anywhere on the mainline though.
     
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  21. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

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    Yes - I was looking at a SPAD mostly - overruns I will bow to your experiences.. thanks for clarifying.
     
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  22. -PjM-

    -PjM- Well-Known Member

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    What would happen then? Is there a procedure that has to be followed? Presumably they couldn't just reverse.
     
  23. Olaf the Snowman

    Olaf the Snowman Well-Known Member

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    It’s complicated. In some ways, it is better to just fail to call completely than overrun because at least there will be minimum disruption.

    The rulebook instruction is as long as the below conditions are met, you may with the permission of the signaller, set back. This is one reason why a wrong direction move may be made.
    1. You’ve gone past the station by no more than 400 metres (0.25 miles)
    2. You’ve gone past no Automatic half barrier crossings between the station and your train

    You will obviously contact the signaller and reach a clear understanding. If applicable, you will contact the guard and inform them what’s happening. You will then switch ends and do the walk of shame to the other cab. You can’t just flick it into reverse... I mention this because believe it or not, I have heard a driver do this before and it is a very serious offence.

    Special instruction as well is that you do not change the exterior lights. So when you switch ends, you will have tail lights on at the ‘front’ end driving towards the station and you will have headlights on at the ‘rear’ of the train. Obviously once back at the station, you will walk back to the other end and contact the signaller to get the signal cleared again. Unlike TSW, the signal should clear again :).

    Back at the depot, you will need to fill in an incident form and have a meeting with your manager. (That’s if your manager isn’t waiting for you on the platform) It will be go on your Safety on the line record which makes it difficult if you want to change companies particularly to intercity companies because they are competitive so a clean record is pretty much a necessity. An action plan will be made between the driver and manager to try and prevent this from happening again. Depending on severity and amount on incidents you’ve had, you may be taken off driving temporarily and be put on training courses/ with an instructor. Also, an action plan may include additional driving assessments/download of the data recorder by a manager.


    Here’s a video of an overrun. Interestingly, the driver puts marker lights on when setting back. Maybe the line is bidirectional so it’s not a wrong direction move.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2020
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  24. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

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    We've all spent quite a lot of time trying to help you figure out the manual lap brakes so if you're not willing or able to spend the time getting to grips with correct operation, and do still want to play Peninsula Corridor, you might be better off buying the Baby Bullet DLC. That has much simpler operation at both the loco and cab car ends.
     
  25. -PjM-

    -PjM- Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Olaf the Snowman for a very detailed answer.

    Made me smile. It'd be a bit of a bummer if nobody wanted to get off when you'd returned to the station. :)
     
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