Class 47 Vs 45

Discussion in 'Troubleshooting' started by grafspee12, Apr 18, 2020.

  1. grafspee12

    grafspee12 New Member

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    I'm running freight services in NTP with those.
    Class 47 is slower then 45 in climbs, am i missing something. What i read about those locos class 47 is much more power full loco.
     
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  2. Tonto62

    Tonto62 Well-Known Member

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    I bought Trans Pennine about 12 months ago on PS4. I noticed straight away that the class 47, although the most powerful in real life and the most numerous diesel on BR was underpowered. Many people have mentioned it on here, sent tickets etc. but nothing has been done about it. A few words of explanation would be very welcome from Dovetail. Is it too hard or impossible to fix? Or are we all driving it incorrectly? The loco looks great but I never use it because it's performance is so unrealistic. Perhaps they could offer us a class 25 in recompense. It could push at the back.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2020
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  3. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    Are you on PC (this is the PC area of the forum)? The only reason I ask is that there is a long-standing problem with the Class 47 on consoles. DTG are aware of the problem but have so far not been able to fix it. I never drive it because of this issue and I’m very unhappy about it. The Class 47 on WSR also suffers from the same issue but on that route the speed limit never goes above 25mph so it’s not so much of an issue but you do need full power to reach the 25mph.
     
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  4. Trim

    Trim Active Member

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    I cannot say that I had noticed any problem with the 47 on a PC, despite reading numerous complaints on here. It certainly appears to be a little quicker on passenger trains, due, primarily I think, to its better electrcial system meaning it can be accelerated quicker. Acceleration counts for very little on the freight trains though, and it is speed up the gradients that is the best indication of performance. I have no idea how the generators and motors compare between the two classes, but there is almost no difference in engine output. The class 45 is 2,500 hp (1,864 kW) and the class 47 is 2,580 hp (1,920 kW), a difference of 3%. The 20 ton difference in locomotive weights might have an effect with lighter trains, but probably not when you're pulling over 900 tons.

    Using the same test train as last time (https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/train-weight.21783/), 6E85 10:40 Manchester to Leeds loaded oil, I found almost no difference between the class 45 and the class 47, and both performed significantly better than the class 40, which is to be expected, since the class 40 engine only produces 2,000 hp (1,490 kW).

    At the top of Miles Platting bank, I was doing 14 mph with both a class 45 and a class 47, having been doing 17 mph before hitting the 1 in 47:
    upload_2020-4-18_14-53-41.jpeg

    upload_2020-4-18_14-53-59.jpeg

    At Diggle signalbox, I was doing 43 mph in the class 45 and class 42 mph in the class 47. Perhaps the class 47 ought to have been a little quicker, I don't really see the difference as being significant, or a problem.
    upload_2020-4-18_14-55-1.jpeg

    upload_2020-4-18_14-55-19.jpeg
     
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  5. grafspee12

    grafspee12 New Member

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    Exactly class 47 has 700 hp more and its lighter then class 45. Still slower then 45
     
  6. grafspee12

    grafspee12 New Member

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    Ok this is derated engine 2580 hp, so why class 47 was 3 mph slower then class 45 with tanks train.
    Class 47 toped at 22mph with 1% climb
    Class 45 did 25 mph with 1% climb
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2020
  7. grafspee12

    grafspee12 New Member

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  8. Trim

    Trim Active Member

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    You appear to expect the speed up a bank with a heavy train to be entirely dependent on engine power. While engine power is a very important factor, it is not the only one. What is the gearing? What is the electrical control system? I don't know the answer to these questions, but I do know that class 47s had two different electrical control systems depending on whether they were intended primarily for heavy freight or for express passenger, with the heavy freight locomotives having series-parallel wiring and the passenger locomotives having all-parallel. The class 47/4s in TSW are the all-parallel type. Although I am reasonably familiar with dc traction control, I do not know how it works in a diesel electric locomotive; what triggers the resistors to be switched in and out. I suspect that these sorts of speeds are too slow for full parallel (with no resistors in circuit), in which case, part of the electricity being generated is just being burned away as heat. Perhaps the class 45 is set up so that it wastes less energy at these speeds; dc traction control is not particularly efficient.

    I have no idea whether class 47 performance is modelled correctly in-game, but it does not seem to me to be sufficiently wrong to cause me to question it.

    Edit: I have now read a little more about dc traction control in diesel electrics and it is rather different from straight dc electric traction control, using the main generator rather than resistor banks to control the current through the motors. Some locomotives do have series/parallel switching (but not the 47/4), but in general the main control appears to be reducing the field strength as the speed increases to reduce the back-emf which restricts the current. This appears to happen only in one or two stages,
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2020
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  9. Tonto62

    Tonto62 Well-Known Member

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    I think perhaps the original poster is on a console and posted here by mistake. I understand the 47 is fine on PC but believe me, it's a different story on a PS4.
     
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  10. Trim

    Trim Active Member

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    Oh, I do believe you; there are enough accounts of it to make that clear.

    However, grafspee12's accounts in his laters posts are of the class 47 on the PC. The class 47 will be doing 38 mph at Deighton and 22 at Marsden (or very close, at any rate) on a 13-tank loaded oil train heading towards Manchester.
     
  11. Tonto62

    Tonto62 Well-Known Member

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    I didn't realise he was on PC. I've just done a quick experiment of my own on the 0821 Leeds to Manchester, first with the 47 then again with the 45. The 47 on full power reached 50 mph at Morley tunnel. The Peak had to be throttled back and braked to observe the 50 mph limit on the way to Morley. Dewsbury was reached 1 1\2 minutes late with the 47, on time with the 45. The 47 passed Mirfield at 60mph, the 45 was doing about 69 at that point. The 47 was 2 1\2 mins down at Huddersfield, the Peak was on time. It's a real problem, I wish they'd fix it, the 47 is a nice engine to drive but it feels like the handbrake is on. It wasn't, I checked. ;)
     
  12. grafspee12

    grafspee12 New Member

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    I just tested 45 vs 47 on East Coast.
    47 top speed 79 mph second try 80 mph
    45 top speed 85 mph
    So 47 is bad at freight is bad at passenger trains.
    just tested class 40 out of curiosity.
    top speed in class 40 78 mph !!!
    Almost 600hp less then class 47 it is simply 600 hp worth of waste in that case.
    Something is off way off.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2020
  13. grafspee12

    grafspee12 New Member

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    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Class 47 is always slower then 45 no matter what.
     
  14. dave55007

    dave55007 Well-Known Member

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    MMM, might have to verify that :D
     
  15. Rob39

    Rob39 Well-Known Member

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    Its a well known issue. The console class 47 NTP and WSR has an issue losing amps at full throttle.The DTG team are aware of this, have been shown in streams. From what they were saying. The fix isnt as quick and simple as some of us would think.
     
  16. dave55007

    dave55007 Well-Known Member

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    Reading through the rest of the thread (should have done that before), I can see that it is a known issue. I think Trim has a good point, gearing, electrics etc were all part of the package and acceleration over a relatively short distance was no indicator of power. Cl 45 and 47 were very close in HP anyway. Adhesion could be a factor too, the Peaks were heavier than the Duffs and that may have actually aided adhesion and hence acceleration, especially for a heavier train.
     
  17. Trim

    Trim Active Member

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    You always lose amps as the speed increases; this is unavoidable with a dc motor, due to back-emf being protportional to the speed. I have now read up a little more on dc traction control in diesel electrics, which is rather different from straight dc electric traction control and uses the generator output rather than resistor grids to control current through the motors. Although this is clearly more efficient, it cannot be particularly simple. Some locomotives do have series-parallel control but not the 47/4 (and not, apparently, the 45 either). The only straight electrical control is field weakening, which appears to be in three stages in the class 47 if it has been modelled correctly (which I realise is rather doubtful). You will see the current jump up at 30 mph, 45 mph and 60 mph.

    The class 40 (and, if I remember correctly, the class 31 and 37) have rather more elaborate electrical control - at least they do in the game - but I have no idea what lies behind the changes in traction current.
     
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  18. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

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    Maybe not a quick fix, but FOURTEEN MONTHS later, the chance of it now getting a fix on consoles seems about as likely as the one for the 155. Stable it up and use the 45 instead! ;)
     
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  19. Rob39

    Rob39 Well-Known Member

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    The twitch stream where TrainSim-Matt drove it live on ps4 whilst in conversation with DominusEdwardius was autumn last year if I remember.
     
  20. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

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    NTP was released in January 2019 on consoles. I mean, autumn may have been the first time they actually tested it on a console, but any basic QA process really should have raised the issue prior to release.
     
  21. Rob39

    Rob39 Well-Known Member

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    Not to go too deep because I dont know the exact issue. The NTP has the same or a very similar simugraph set up to the WSR 47 on console. The WSR is a 25mph line, so wasnt noticed by anyone devs or users. So when implementeing the NTP 47 it was presumed a tried and tested model. The fact that this problem dosent appear on PC also helped to hide this annomaly.
    Im sure someone more informed can elaborate TrainSim-Dmitri
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2020
  22. DominusEdwardius

    DominusEdwardius Well-Known Member

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    To be fair, it isn't actually the easiest of issues to spot without the heavy freight pack, for the most part it generally keeps time well enough with the express trains so with its QA pass it isn't surprising nobody noticed as you would have to be very familiar with 47s to actually notice it was misbehaving. Mean it took until the heavy freight pack and Mid June 2019 for anybody to actually notice and report it on here.
     
  23. Rob39

    Rob39 Well-Known Member

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    Did you find what the difference was between WSR NTP console version and WSR NTP PC version?
     
  24. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

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    True enough I suppose, and WSR doesn't have the tough gradients that NTP does. I don't have the Heavy Freight pack, but I played with the 47 a bit and, not knowing the train in detail, just assumed it was supposed to be a crusty old bag of BR crap, so played with the 45 instead from that point on (which also feels pretty shoddy compared to the 37 on TVL). Kind of a shame for the person who spent time making the 47, but hey if they're not going to dust off the PS4 to test it in a few different situations, they can't expect people to keep using it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2020
  25. Rob39

    Rob39 Well-Known Member

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    I started to take notice of the 47 after seeing posts on here about it underperforming and the comparisons between seeing it climb versus the 45 and 40.
     
  26. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    I noticed the problem the first time I tried to drive it (on NTP) when I first bought the game for PS4 last August, before I got the heavy freight pack and before I joined the forum. It’s a pretty obvious flaw. My first post here was about it. And I’m still not happy about it. To find out when I posted about it that it was already a long-standing issue was bad enough but I thought a fix would come for it before now. If DTG release another route that uses it in its current broken state I will be very annoyed and probably explode.
     
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  27. dave55007

    dave55007 Well-Known Member

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    It's a Duff, what can you expect? Its all in the name.:D
     
  28. GothicMatt

    GothicMatt Active Member

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    Well the class 47 has now been fixed in the latest update
     
  29. Lolster274

    Lolster274 New Member

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    Hi all. Having worked with both 45 and 47s i have seen this in reality in the late 80s. Although 47s had 80more HP and were around 18tonnes lighter than 45s, they were not as good on accelerating from a standing start or climbing hills as a 45. As has been rightly highlighted on here previously, field weakening and superior electrical control equipment played a big factor between these two machines. A 45 had six stages of field weakening with the highest stage around 78 mph whereas a 47 only had 3 with highest stage around 65mph meaning they were loosing tractive effort from then on.

    It’s one the reasons if you check the trailing tonneages in old BR working timetables that 45s had a higher equivalent trailing tonnage timing load than a 47 and to prove this 1S13 Bristol - Edinburgh sleeper with 16 bogies was booked a 45 between Bristol and Birmingham (via Lickey or diverted via Stourbridge) both arduous routes. 45 also cost more to build than a 47 too so probably proves the saying you get what you pay for!,

    Don’t be fooled by the slight power increase or 5mph top end. It wasn’t unknown for a 45 to be off the clock. 45s also rode much better and if you asked a driver which one he’d prefer, the vast majority would choose a 45 over a 47. The 45 undoubtedly was a superior machine even if it did hammer the track to pieces but I think the comparisons on the game are absolutely about right with the 45 performing better just like reality.
     
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