Errors In Official Scenarios?

Discussion in 'Technical Reports' started by Cyclone, May 25, 2020.

  1. Cyclone

    Cyclone Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    3,160
    Likes Received:
    1,051
    Not sure how these get addressed, but I am witnessing them on streams and something seems off with the fact that they can even happen. Take for instance this clip of a green signal followed immediately by a green on another track and a red directly in front (all visible in the clip). The scenario is included in the USATC S160 Loco DLC. I would imagine that DTG needs to revisit these and fix the errors, updating the scenario ASAP. That doesn't require checking against 650 other DLC to fix and should be fixable in short order.

    Also captured one from the fifth scenario in the South Wales Coastal route once, but that one was an AI collision.
     
  2. Tomas9970

    Tomas9970 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2018
    Messages:
    924
    Likes Received:
    877
    The USATC S160 is made by a thrid party as stated on the store page so I think you should report the bug to them instead.
     
  3. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2020
    Messages:
    1,195
    Likes Received:
    1,626
    Actually, since Dovetail Games is the publisher of this DLC, it is perfectly legitimate to flag any issues direct with Dovetail - they take ultimate responsibility for the sale and marketing of the product (on Steam).
     
  4. Cyclone

    Cyclone Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    3,160
    Likes Received:
    1,051
    So it sounds like both are viable, or both together. In any case, I found their blog and have posted the clip in response to their blog post announcing the release of the DLC in June of 2016. Since posts have to be approved, it will no doubt be seen. We will see if a fix is done for it and any other scenarios. I'm guessing it's a 32 bit versus 64 bit thing, but what do I know?
     
  5. Marc von Hoffrichter

    Marc von Hoffrichter Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2018
    Messages:
    60
    Likes Received:
    38
    Man I hate that. Especially on a career scenario. It seems to be happening more and more now too.
    Edit: Perhaps something to do with the LED Signals issue?
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2020
  6. Cyclone

    Cyclone Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    3,160
    Likes Received:
    1,051
    No idea. But I do know I saw a lovely highlight recently where a train derailed on the switch from right to left lane because the junction changed to the other track mid-transfer, giving that track a clear green signal, and then...well, you can guess what happened next, but watch for yourself. Watch to at least 7 minutes in. I promise you it's worth it.

    I'm going to presume this is the signal issue you speak of, but you tell me.
     
  7. Marc von Hoffrichter

    Marc von Hoffrichter Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2018
    Messages:
    60
    Likes Received:
    38
    Did you check the 2D may to see if the run on points were set? Looks to be a disconnect betwix the up and down crossing. I don't think it has anything to do with the Signals issue though. Appears to reset half way through on the down main. You had the right of way though. The ground frame indicated that.
    No wonder they got rid of the old SDJR. :)
    I don't think the scenario loads properly. I say that due to the deformed sprites inside.
    Can you reinstall SDJR dlc?
     
  8. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2016
    Messages:
    8,421
    Likes Received:
    2,675
    Amazing thread where nobody thinks it could be the person playing the game that is a fault

    UK Semaphore Signals only have two lights in them.
    A Distant Signal (the arm of which is Yellow) has a Yellow and Green Lens
    When Horizontal and Showing Yellow it means the Next signal is at RED
    When at an angle it means the Next Signal is Clear

    A Stop Signal (the arm of which is Red) has a Red and Green Lens
    When Horizontal it means Stop
    When at an angle it means proceed but it does not mean every other signal is also green

    There was nothing wrong with the signal in that clip
    - There was something wrong with the Driver
    Schnauzahpowahz

    From getting near the first signal I could see the next was at Danger but the driver in the clip kept full power on.

    RTFM

    Peter
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2020
  9. Cyclone

    Cyclone Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    3,160
    Likes Received:
    1,051
    I still find it strange that a green signal is a clear proceed aspect and then the next signal is a red, so I guess it's just very easy to SPAD with these. I'll just have to be careful with these when I drive them, I guess. I'm sure the real-life layout is simulated, but I find it odd there is no distant signal present in this layout to warn of the upcoming red, since that would be showing the yellow. Will take getting used to.

    Also 749006 I agree, from the angle on review you can clearly see the horizontal bar ahead (and looking right, the green aspect two tracks over), so there was a chance to react, but it's a thing where you run on other tracks that do have built-in yellows as warnings and that carried into his playing there, I guess, so he didn't think to expect it to possibly go from green to red.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2020
  10. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2016
    Messages:
    8,421
    Likes Received:
    2,675
    It comes down to not understanding how Semaphore Signals work.
    If you watch this from 18mins it explains how they work


    Peter
     
  11. Cyclone

    Cyclone Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    3,160
    Likes Received:
    1,051
    So I found the VOD. The distant signal was green. So neither of the signals that he came across should have been red because the distant signal gave him a clear, by this understanding. I wonder if the train ahead (because the distant had been yellow a moment before) was not clear of the point to make the regular signal green but cleared the distant signal...but this also doesn't make sense. I wonder if he sonehow routed onto the wrong track? Still doesn't make sense.

    The only thing I can imagine is improper linking of the distant signal on the route itself. It should be linked to BOTH of the signals behind it. But it correctly linked and showed only the first green signal, not the second, which was red, with a distant green suggesting all was fine. And for some reason, the green signal existed two lines over, which makes me think it could also be a routing issue and the distant signal was correct, just for some reason he ended up on the wrong path. But there was no path over to the correct signal, either.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2020
    • Like Like x 1
  12. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2016
    Messages:
    8,421
    Likes Received:
    2,675
    It is not a bi directional route - you can only go one way on each of the two lines
    The Signals can only link to the next signal in advance of it.
    The Signal on the other line cleared because there was nothing coming from the opposite direction - it happens on all TS Routes it was not a "Correct Signal" if there was no path to it
    The Signal before the Station only routes in to the Platform or the main line - it does not allow a wrong direction move

    The Distant is Clear but it only applies to the Next Signal
    Screenshot_Riviera Line in the Fifties_50.60830--3.44493_12-01-24.jpg

    The Home Signal is also Clear to the through road
    Screenshot_Riviera Line in the Fifties_50.60247--3.44426_12-02-23.jpg
    The Next Stop Signal is RED and I can see it BEFORE I pass the Signalbox
    Screenshot_Riviera Line in the Fifties_50.60173--3.44406_12-02-30a.jpg

    So why did the guy in the Video keep full power on?
     
  13. Cyclone

    Cyclone Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    3,160
    Likes Received:
    1,051
    Based on his personal camera, I think he didn't see the screen for a moment, so when he looked up and realized it was red, he had no time to react. It's possible he might have expected a yellow not knowing how they work, true. But I know when I see the stop arm horizontal, my gut reaction is hold up, I can't go through that. He certainly didn't intentionally blow a red, he just didn't expect a red.

    My thinking behind the signal being linked to multiple signals comes from the video you linked (I've seen it as well, watched a lot of PTGRail's videos), where it says multiple main signals can be linked to one distant signal. And no, just because you have that understanding doesn't mean you stop looking at the signals to make sure the way is actually clear. I'm not excusing inattentiveness. I'm just trying to understand why that particular signal was red as it's a very easy thing for ANYONE to do after seeing a previous green - and I guarantee you I'll do it by accident at some point, as well. I would have thought that stop arm being horizontal would have been tied to the distant signal not in that clip, and about a minute or so further back before the green signal at the start of the clip. The distant signal was green, so if PTGRail's video is correct, why are both main signals not tied to that distant signal? It seems odd that there was no advance warning of that red when the distant signal might have been able to give that warning, so I guess my personal confusion is why that distant signal did not warn of that red on the main.

    (It's worth noting that the distant signal WAS yellow, then it turned green, so it's clear that a train was ahead and probably the one that has station clearance. Semaphone signals are harder signals, I guess.)
     
  14. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2016
    Messages:
    8,421
    Likes Received:
    2,675
    I could not find the video on his Youtube page and I think he was doing it for fun on Twitter
    Even though we can see the Signal is showing Stop he still keeps full power on.
    The Scenario ends due to points set against the train and maybe the whole point was a demonstration of what happens?

    The signals on that route only have one marker which is next to the post in the Editor
    It needs to have more than one to read both signals

    Peter
     
  15. Cyclone

    Cyclone Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    3,160
    Likes Received:
    1,051
    You tell me. (That is the VOD.)

    He scanned ahead at 3:54:50ish and saw the yellow distant signal.
    He passed an earlier main (also seen in the scan) at 3:56:01. Green.
    The distant signal previously scanned was passed at 3:57:19. By now, it was green.
    The next two signals are main. The first is passed shortly after 3:57:45. In that still, you can see a stop arm on the other track to the right, before the signal that was green, meaning that there was a train in that block. (There wasn't.) As he continues on, there is suddenly a green light behind the stop arm and there is a red light on his track. That seems off.

    So again, perhaps I'm misunderstanding something, but other than his failure to pay attention to what was ahead, I thought he did everything else right. And if he had stopped in time, would he have been able to finish the scenario? Would that stop arm have gone away? Has anyone else played that scenario and knows what happens there?
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2020
  16. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2016
    Messages:
    8,421
    Likes Received:
    2,675
    I do not know what a VOD is?

    It does not matter what the indications of previous signals were
    He might have "scanned" a distant signal at 3:54:50ish but that signal only applied to the next Stop Signal and nothing else
    Yes he passed the Distant at 3:57:19.showing the next Stop Signal was Clear.

    It does not matter about signals on other lines - they do not apply to the direction of travel of the train
    He went past the first stop signal around 3:57:45 whilst looking at some notes or his Keyboard
    He then looked up to see a Signal Showing RED
    "other than his failure to pay attention to what was ahead" that is part of the drivers job and when they don't accidents occur

    The Stop arm would not have gone away but it would have changed from Red to Green when the line was clear
    I think it was a Career Scenario which came with the loco as a normal Scenario does not end the game if you have a Spad

    Peter
     
  17. Cyclone

    Cyclone Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    3,160
    Likes Received:
    1,051
    Yeah, I think it was a career scenario. I just found that signal setup odd, that what happened on the other line was a sudden green signal with no train present on that line, and a red before it. I wonder if perhaps that was a train that he doesn't have, and possibly the consist was therefore invisible, but that seems unlikely since this came WITH the DLC.

    Doesn't change the fact he had to stop on his line. Just seems odd how that one worked.
     
  18. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2018
    Messages:
    10,832
    Likes Received:
    10,482
    I've just watched the vid
    As he's coming through the station before Dawlish Warren he gets a yellow which then clears, in fact he slows down until he sees the next signal which is clear. He then drives as if that hasn't happened and proceeds up to 52mph through a station which has two signals within a third of a mile as shown on the HUD

    To me it seems likely that a train in front was being caught up which triggered the previous warning, and with two signals in quick succession around Dawlish Warren he went from clear to not clear very quickly.

    Likely there should have been a distant signal warning of the red ahead, but he didn't drive defensively that's for sure.
     
  19. Cyclone

    Cyclone Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    3,160
    Likes Received:
    1,051
    I agree, when I reviewed the video I concluded he didn't consider the train ahead of him that triggered the warning on his track. I still don't know how the green signal showed up on the track to the right, that is probably the most mystifying part of this. I winder if it's a back and forth switch, meaning the junction is cleared from the track that is not passable, but that would not make sense if both tracks wound up blocked.

    But yes, even when he saw the yellow, he could have checked the 2D map by hitting 9, moving ahead of him, seeing the train, and changing his speed setting to a lower speed to maintain the ability to stop if the red did not clear.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2020
  20. Marc von Hoffrichter

    Marc von Hoffrichter Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2018
    Messages:
    60
    Likes Received:
    38
    ^^ This ^^ ...is spot on. The distant indicates a warning, ergo the next signal will be at danger, if the movement ahead has not cleared the block, then check the map if in doubt.
     
  21. Cyclone

    Cyclone Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    3,160
    Likes Received:
    1,051
    And at the very least, you know you saw the yellow, so don't increase your damn speed. LOL Defensive driving will be part of my repertoire, I'm just trying to resolve an audio latency issue before I start playing fully. So far, I have identified that it might be NVIDIA or Elgato (I have some six sound drivers, but NVIDIA didn't have problems before the update), and research is leading me to a problem with something I don't know whether I have that may not be supported by the new driver, so I have to identify if that or something else is the issue.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2020
    • Like Like x 1
  22. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2018
    Messages:
    10,832
    Likes Received:
    10,482
    Some people don't like doing so, but then he didn't stay in cab so doubt he's a "purist driver"... I would have been checking for sure as soon as that warning came up
    In real life of course the driver would have had route knowledge and known all of the signal locations and which have remotes and which don't
     
    • Like Like x 1
  23. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2016
    Messages:
    8,421
    Likes Received:
    2,675
    The way the system works the signals will clear if there is no train around
     

Share This Page