My Thoughts On Tsw2

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by jagay, Jun 14, 2020.

  1. jagay

    jagay Member

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    As a preface, I should mention I've worked in the games industry for 21 years (nothing to do with trains) and am also a fan of sims, trains, models and model rail. So, I'm the prime demographic for TSW and the like.

    The announcement explanation for why TSW2 is a new SKU and not an incremental update is quite literally meaningless. Dovetail established a model of releasing a game and then selling a lot of expensive DPC for it, and then continually upgrading that game releasing annual updates to the core game for years to come. That's what they did with TSxxxx and what they were doing with TSW for the past two years. Their consumers have an expectation for them to continue to do this.

    Their stated reason for TSW2 to be a new purchase is that it's all new, but the old content will be transferable to it (that is, your license to the content will entitle you to ported versions of that content on the new game). Obviously then, if they chose to, they could have released their new game as TSW2021, it would have been a big download, and from the end user's perspective the game would have become better with yet another annual update and their content would continue to work on it. They chose not to do this. This is a business decision. They obviously felt they needed to recoup their costs, and so are asking their players to put a new game to play their DLC on. It's about money, that's all. Thing is, it's also three new routes and new tech, so it's not bad as a value proposition, but the messaging..ugh.

    As a consumer, I'm not thrilled. This breaks their compact with their audience, as they've deviated form their existing model and made this move counter to our expectations. As a consumer, I know that at the end of the day, this is going to cost me money I had not expected to spend. However, my pockets are deep enough that I'll pony up all the same, but I do want the best train sim experience I can get, and as compared to the cost of my library of DLC, this really is not a huge deal.

    Now, as someone who's worked on games, in both big studios and independents, I'm much more sympathetic. Those of you who play TSW, do realize, even though this is what you are into (really into, if you're reading these boards), it's also incredibly niche. Simulators are niche. Train simulators moreso. There's a market for this sort of game, but it's not anything like what exists for other genres. Dovetail have obviously been trying to broaden their appeal by going cross platform on consoles, adding lots of tutorials, supporting (only) the most common controller (and not the obvious one for their genre)- these are also business decisions.

    So, obviously I don't know anything about their financials, but I know the industry well enough to know that the path to riches does not come by spending huge on AAA development in something incredibly niche when your business model does not rely on subscription. In order for them to keep putting out their product, they need to continually monetize us. Someone buying 1 or 2 DLC a year on the steam sale won't keep their lights on.

    Also realize, those of you reading this, you are not the average TSW consumers, you are the hardcore, given that you are here on this forum. For each of you, there's plenty more who are way more casual. Yes, there are whales who will buy all the DLC, but they are the exception. For many in their user-base, they are into what they are into, and that only. Money aside, they do not want the rest of what Dovetail are selling. Personally, I like the Big Four era, particularly the GWR. So, any DLC in the southwest of England I'll buy on day one, and any modern traction in the US or Germany I'll pass on. Consider how poorly they are able to monetize their base when some percentage of their base have tunnel vision like me- A niche within a niche within a niece.

    So what I'm saying is ultimately this: I like TSW, I like train simulators, and I want them not to go away. (I have edited this next bit, on further reflection) I am not certain Dovetail was cognizant of how disliked this announcement would be taken by some. I suspect each of us has our own personal knitpicks, one or more of: editor, price, stats retention, station sounds, whatever. Personally, none of those are deal breakers for me, balanced against new content, controller support, the actual promise of steam traction and longer routes. So, given that I'm okay with TSW2.

    What I take exception to is the messaging. Their explanation of why TSW2 is a new SKU is meaningless: "We need to bring Train Sim World forward – advance the engine, evolve SimuGraph® (Dovetail’s own physics engine that powers Train Sim World), add new features and capabilities for more types of train simulation such as High Speed, long freight, and in the future Steam Engines, Multiplayer and more." really is just that- meaningless. You could summarize this as "We needed to make the game better and add features", which is true of every annual iteration. What's different is this one was more expensive to develop and they need to recoup that. That I do understand, and I'll follow them down this path because making games is not easy, not cheap, and this is a game targeted at a tiny audience that includes me, and I want them to keep making it.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2020
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  2. JJTimothy

    JJTimothy Well-Known Member

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    This is the point I tried to make elsewhere but stated more clearly and trotting out that last statement which, as you say, is no more than they've been doing for years just makes one wonder what the real reason is and why they can't be up front about it.

    I also wonder how much this will actually gain them. Yes- some people will buy everything in sight so ka-ching. Others will buy a new edition of TS, and presumably TSW now, to get the new routes but they'd have done that if it was released as TSW2021 anyway. I don't think I can be unique in allocating a certain budget for train simulation so if I do ever buy TSW2 it will be with money that would have gone on towards DLC so, again, no gain.
     
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  3. ASRGT

    ASRGT Well-Known Member

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    Spot on.
     
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  4. Cael

    Cael Well-Known Member

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    It seems that vocal disappointed buyers made a dent in their profits deep enough to warrant a change in approach. That may be why they're continuing forward with TSW2, a new product, rather than TSW2021. A clean slate approach with an upgraded engine.

    Although after the Q&A session, I'm rather disappointed with how little has changed.

    From a buyer's perspective, the new TSW2 is going to cost the same as a new route DLC (the equivalent of 24.99 pounds) for either 2 or 3 new routes, depending on whether you're a console player or not, so it's actually not a bad deal. Plus it will create some marketing splash to attract new customers and lure back the old ones.
     
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  5. SamYeager270

    SamYeager270 Well-Known Member

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    Definite thumbs up to jagay for his post.

    For me one of the most disappointing aspects was the list of features that Matt confirmed will NOT appear in TSW2 such as PIS and station announcements which really leaves me wondering what's the point of TSW2 for me apart from adhesion in new/modified DLC. I'm sure there's lots of benefits for the development team otherwise they wouldn't have done it but if there were advantages for the punters then DTG didn't seem that bothered about telling us what they were. Apart from adhesion the only touted advantage seemed to be is that it moves them nearing to being able to produce steam DLC but even then they apparently need another large update (paid?) before it's likely to happen.
     
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  6. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    They definitely seem to have hit the price point right because there are plenty of people who have said "It's only 24.99 for three routes".

    So it appears that 24.99 is bang on for what some people are prepared to shell out (or convince Parents, Guardians or Responsible Adult to pay) without knowing what they're getting. Hopefully, as more information is released we'll get a better idea, but the Underground without "Mind The Gap" isn't the underground, CSX is a re-hash of maybe the oldest DLC (which are too difficult to port across apparently) and hopefully the ICE will be ok.

    I've read people saying that it's only 8.99 per route and that routes are 24.99 so that in itself makes it a good deal. That's a reasonable point but realistically DTG are like DFS, there's always something on sale! (For non UK members, DFS is a furniture retailer who have a reputation for having constant sales).

    Only those who must have the newest DLC at the moment it's released will pay 24.99.

    I've got most of the TSW2020 DLC's and the most I've paid for a route is 14.99 for Peninsula Corridor. The most for a loco add on is 7.19 for the Class 52. So if you're prepared to wait you will get a proper deal.

    Just go on steamdb and it tells you there how much stuff really sells for.
     
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  7. Rudolf

    Rudolf Well-Known Member

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    Well said jagay.
    If I look at my steam friends, 11 own TSW out of over 30. I am the one that played by far the most hours. 3-4 people play it seriously and own a number of DLC. The others may have play 20-30 hours. Three bought the game but never played it.
    DTG did an amazing job in this market, I think now over 50 people are working for the company, they once started of as a Kuju team with 6 persons. I believe TS2020 is still their cash cow and I really cannot imagine they make any profit on TSW. It must be costing them a huge amount of money every year. So, it really is a long term investment to learn the technology and bring simulation further.
    I think, where they failed is in communications. There is nice group of fans and I remember in the beginning of "Railsimulator", that a number of people where cooperating with the developers to solve an issue with localization. Teh community also helped a lot by developing the first third party routes in the UKTS Route Building challenges.
    We can do a lot to help and make TSW a success if DTG only would let us help and organize that process. Hopefully this will change now.
     
  8. Sumit

    Sumit Member

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    DTG may go bankrupt
    I heard they have 5 million euro loans from banks and others. Someone at discord shares the annual statement also.
    They need to upgrade the TS also otherwise the game is loosing the grip
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2020
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  9. fanta1682002

    fanta1682002 Well-Known Member

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    DTG may go bankrupt?
     
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  10. Sumit

    Sumit Member

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    people lost trust on tsw
     
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  11. jagay

    jagay Member

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    I don't think you should draw much inference from those numbers, it's typical stuff, does not seem scary to me.

    My point was and is, this hobby of ours in very niche. Their business model is to sell us bespoke bits of stuff, once, and then continue to support it. This is why need to keep selling stuff. I think with TSW2 the messaging could and should have been better, but the offering is fine.

    The only real difference between TSW2 and what might have been called "TSW2021", from the consumer perspective, is that your stats progression is not carried forward. Everything else is tech under the hood. As a consumer, it's going to look a bit better, run a bit better, have some new stuff, include my old stuff, essentially the same game. Yet, by calling it an all new game that we will feel compelled to buy, it leaves a slight bad taste, as we just bought into TSW after having had TSxxxx for years and years.

    Had they pitched it as "TSW2021 but we're resetting progression for the new engine and you get 3 new routes for 25 pounds" I think the news would have been better received. I'm buying it, I'm looking forward to it, but that announcement left me cold.

    They had me at it getting proper controller support- that's been top of my wishlist for years.

    I'm likly in the minority on this, but I'm not upset about no editor. Trainz has a public editor, and a huge amount of routes of very mixed quality. The experience for a new player is all over the place, and navigating and downloading all that stuff is not exactly 'turnkey'. For them to make money, since they cannot sell content, they instead sell subscriptions that essentially give ease of use in accessing all that stuff. If DTG were to put out their editor, they would lose their monopoly on their content, and then how would they pay their bills? Would you rather pay a subscription monthly for access to all their routes, or continue to buy what you want a la carte? I prefer the latter which is why I don't feel a need their editor.
     
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  12. Gabriel12499

    Gabriel12499 Member

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    [removed by Protagonist - already posted elsewhere. Please re-read the forum rules.]
     
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  13. Trooper117

    Trooper117 Active Member

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    Very good post, thank you!
     
  14. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    Brilliant OP. I have been trying to find meaning, for the way that TSW 2021 is being launched.... as "TSW2". And my thinking is this:

    If they had launched this as an annual update with the name "TSW 2021", what real difference would it have made...., compared to the previous year? And I really do mean this - what if they just used the "TSW 2021" name this time around? None of the other planned changes would be affected (they would all be implemented)..... so.... what would that actually mean....? It would mean this:

    1. For anyone that did not buy TSW 2021, or any further DLC (at all), there would be no difference at all.

    Okay.... but what if you bought TSW 2021...... as your first ever purchase? Then you'd get this:

    2. You would get TSW 2021, includng three routes with the features from the new engine. If you subsequently purchased pre-2021 DLC, then these would have limited "preserved" features, and would not work with the Livery Designer or Scenario Planner. You would experience no difference at all.

    But what if you already own TSW 2020 DLC, and then you buy TSW 2021? Then you get this:

    3. You would get TSW 2021, includng three routes with some additional features from the new engine. You could keep your copy of TSW 2020 (and the stats progress). You could also download a "copy" (or "preserved" version) of your TSW 2020 DLC into TSW 2021, where it will retain its old feature set. You could choose to not download all of your old DLC into TSW 2021, but keep them under TSW 2020 (with the stats progress). You could choose to delete TSW 2020 DLC (and the stats progress).

    There is another situation, where you own TSW 2020, but choose not to buy TSW 2021 because you don't like the routes. It is not clear what happens in the situation where you decide to buy a later DLC... do you get TSW 2021 with your later purchase... or do you have to buy CSX/ICE/LUL......? Let's assume you get a copy of TSW 2021 with any future DLC (but not the threee launch routes)...... so this is what you get:

    4. You would get TSW 2021, but not includng the three launch routes - you would just get the later DLC (it would have to be a route DLC). You could keep your copy of TSW 2020 (and the stats progress). You could also download a "copy" (or "preserved" version) of your TSW 2020 DLC into TSW 2021, where it will retain its old feature set. You could choose to not download all of your old DLC into TSW 2021, but keep them under TSW 2020 (with the stats progress). You could choose to delete TSW 2020 DLC (and the stats progress).

    So..... what does this mean.... in reality.....? It simply means that you need to decide:

    Your choices - if you purchase TSW 2021 (after owning TSW 2020) then you need to choose:
    - whether or not you are happy to lose your stats progress under TSW 2020 to date;
    - whether or not you want two versions of the base programme on your system; and,
    - where you want your pre TSW 2021 DLC to be kept: either under TSW 2020 or under TSW 2021 or under both.

    If you do not purchase TSW 2012 then:
    - you need to know whether you will be required to purchase TSW 2021 with CSX/ICE/LUL, in order to buy later route DLCs

    NB: DTG could have decided to push out TSW 2021 (or "TSW 2") to everyone as an empty shell without the DLC, and given everyone the option to download their old DLC into the newer more efficient engine (starting from scratch on stats progress). That way customers could choose whether or not to buy the three route package launched on 6th August for £24.99.

    That's it. The point that I am making is to support the OP in question whether this could this have been communicated more effectively... and meaningfully? I am not even sure that it was necessary to create the idea of "TSW 2"..... TSW 2021 would then simply become a major feature update to TSW 2020.

    The biggest (and only) unrecoverable difference is the loss of progress stats to date. And my suspicion is that they knew this would happen when they created Mastery - I suspect that was designed to be a bridge.

    That's it. I think......? ;-)
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2020
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