Where's Dtg Gone?

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by longo239, Jun 15, 2020.

  1. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    Has anybody else noticed how quiet DTG have been since Thursday evenings announcement? No streams, no visible presence on the forums.

    I'm hoping it's purely the fact it's been the weekend and now it's Monday morning there may be something from them with regards to answering some of the questions and comments that have been made.

    I'm hoping they have not decided to adopt an "it is what it is", "like it or lump it", "your getting what your given" attitude.

    If they're wanting to interact with the community, then they've got to listen to all of the community, whether they're happy or not. The NHS can't just decide they're going to interact with the healthy part of the community because they're less work.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2020
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  2. Yerolo

    Yerolo Well-Known Member

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    Yeh things have been a little quiet since the Q&A stream, before the TSW2 annoucement they were streaming almost every day.
    The class 20 releases in a few days, Sam and/or Matt may be doing a stream for that prior to its release.
     
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  3. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    DTGProtagonist has a few posts here since the Q&A stream I believe, but not much.
     
  4. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Has left the building Staff Member

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    Observing the results. Interference on my part would have skewed them.

    I'm visible again now, and have some cleaning up to do.
     
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  5. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    Like I said it's been the weekend, but DTG Protaganist made in excess of 80 posts between the announcement being made on Tuesday and the start of the stream on Thursday. Since the end of the stream, 7 posts!

    Now, don't get me wrong I like Sam and everything he has done and is trying to do for this community, so don't for one minute accuse me of making a personal dig at him because it isn't.

    Maybe it's because I'm a born sceptic, but I wonder how different it would have been if the news about TSW2 had been overwhelmingly well received.
     
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  6. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    I think they kinda expected it going this way, I mean even they themselves said things like "onto the next disappointing question" in the stream. And I suppose it's kinda understandable that they are quiet a bit. I mean there is not much they could say to calm the community right now. So the best they can do it watch the reactions and think about what to say next, and MAYBE change some of the plans.

    I mean if they said the old DLCs actually get a big bugfix and proper update for TSW2, then I think most of the current unrest would be calmed. But I don't see that happening, and they finally promised not to lie, so unless there is a proper change in plans, they don't have much to say really.
     
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  7. fanta1682002

    fanta1682002 Well-Known Member

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    very like class 20
     
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  8. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    I think the vast majority are happy with TSW 2 and the fact that some progression is being made on the editor, and that £25 is a good price for what we are getting.

    However, all the outrage is over bug fixes, and backwards compatibility.

    If these two points were met, you'd have one or two users moaning, as opposed to the multitude of threads and complaints on multiple platforms.
     
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  9. fanta1682002

    fanta1682002 Well-Known Member

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  10. TinTin_57

    TinTin_57 Well-Known Member

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    Does the DTG streaming schedule resume this week? Certainly I think Wednesday would be the Class 20 stream hopefully
     
  11. Wilfboy

    Wilfboy Active Member

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    Kind of makes you wonder what was the point in getting us to make a definitive list of all the bugs prior to the big announcement when they already knew they had no intention of doing any of these fixes
     
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  12. Michael Newbury

    Michael Newbury Well-Known Member

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    I hope so I think they were just letting everyone a chance to digest Thursdays stream.
     
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  13. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    Or letting the dust settle, depending on your viewpoint :cool:
     
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  14. Michael Newbury

    Michael Newbury Well-Known Member

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    That is exactly it I think they knew things could possibly get vocal and decided to take a step back and let the dust settle.
     
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  15. byeo

    byeo Well-Known Member

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    They’re planning on doing more streams before TSW 2 release. Give them time.
     
  16. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    Wasn't wanting more information on TSW2, was just wondering if they had adopted a more covert policy because there hadn't been anything from them about anything over the weekend and the daily driving streams had stopped also.
     
  17. JohnnyK98

    JohnnyK98 Well-Known Member

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    I don't see an issue. DTG is reflecting and digesting all of the community comments and reactions while preparing to launch TSW2 in the coming months.

    Things take time, and that's okay, there's nothing wrong with that.

    Just take a deep breath.
     
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  18. JohnnyK98

    JohnnyK98 Well-Known Member

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  19. fanta1682002

    fanta1682002 Well-Known Member

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    not good china route
     
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  20. andref.maccarini

    andref.maccarini Member

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    I'm new here and didn't know that happened. What a shitty thing to do O.o
     
  21. JohnnyK98

    JohnnyK98 Well-Known Member

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    Take it with a grain of salt, that's not the whole story.
    Here's a little context. DTG_Protagonist is the new TSW community manager, and one of the initiatives was to take feedback from the community of things we'd like to see, and the things we'd like to see fixed. One of which finally came to fruition; the long overdue fix to the Class 47 will finally be implemented in the next 48 hours, for example (unfortunately it took nearly two years, though).

    TSW2 is not out for another few months, so we're hoping for some more bug fixes. But as always, these things take time and resources. I work at a head office for a company, and trust me, it takes time for things to pass through the hoops... relatively "small" things take time. One thing I've learned growing up is to have patience.

    Anyway, welcome to the TSW community!
     
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  22. jazznsf

    jazznsf Member

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    I've only been playing with the sim for a short time... less than a hundred hours actually. Sometimes - by the sound of it - you'd think DTG attempted a Space Shuttle launch that sent seven people to their death. This is a game folks. A simulation. I've spent thousands of hours with MS Flight Sim over the years. To this day, it's got an entire bagful of bugs that have never been addressed. People still run the software, and there is a huge supportive community surrounding Flight Sim. I'm pretty certain that's one of the reasons why MS is bringing it back after a dozen-year absence.

    The only reason I got into TSW 2020 was to stress test my new build for the upcoming FS 2020. But since then, I've added a few DLC packages and I've found myself enjoying TSW quite a bit. Is it perfect? Of course not. Is it pretty good? Absolutely. I complete a service or two every day. Currently I'm learning the ins and outs of the Main-Spessart Bahn line. I find it relaxing after a day's work and lots of fun. And I'll keep coming back to it even after the new FS 2020 is installed on my new build. Trains and planes? Sign me up!

    Here's the deal: nobody is forcing you to play TSW. If you find it frustrating and not worth your time, walk away.

    I'm stunned at the number of people on this forum who do nothing but complain. It speaks to a complete lack of appreciation for the thousands of hours of work that goes into developing software of any sort, let alone something as complex as a simulation. I'd be mighty curious about the age and employment status of the biggest complainers: likely still living with Mom and Dad? I feel sorry for them... the parents that is. :)
     
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  23. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    You might not agree with with other people's view points, and that's fair enough as we don't all agree in life, but there's no need to stoop to the level of insults. Undermines your post a bit.

    You're correct, TSW isn't a bad game (yes there are bugs, yes it would be nice if they fixed them) but the current practices of DTG are sub par:

    - Encouraging players to build their collections, then making them obsolete.
    - Removing support from products six weeks after release.

    Given they'll be continuing to sell the TSW content, it's a very strange decision to end support on them.
     
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  24. jagay

    jagay Member

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    I think it is exactly what he said, he's observing the reaction to their announcement, and to engage with us as we debate it would skew that response.

    Valve is famous for never directly communicating with their audience, yet scrumptiously observing their reactions. They go so far as to seed their data with breadcrumbs pointing to ideas they are contemplating to see what the community responds to. Since they don't directly interact, they never make promises, and so as less likely to disappoint.
     
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  25. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    Yeah just tell your consumer base to walk away, what a great marketing strategy! Looks like you're forgetting the fact that at the end this is a business. They are making product. It's not a freeware hobby project to say things like "oh just don't play it then" or "i'd like to see you make a better one". People pay for it and expect satisfaction in return. If the product failt to satisfy them, then they will complaint and/or not buy your next one.

    You complain about people complaining, but don't seem to understand the reason for their complaints. Prices with TSW are getting higher and higher, yet content and quality is getting lower and lower. TSW basically launched as a tech demo, with only one route, but it showed the potenial of the new game, and promised even more. People were hopeful, and so were the developers themselves. Yet with every new DLC the quality basically dropped more and more. Routes started becoming shorter, scenery got less detailed, launched with fewer rolling stock included, no new features or even less features as before, yet prices stay the same?

    Yet despite these flaws people still supported TSW because at the end the game is still enjoyable and the hope was always there that it will be even better later on. But now they announced that old content will not be supported anymore, so everyone can forget about fixes or new features coming to their favorite routes they bought in the last 2-3 years. So it's basically a big slap in the face for many people.
     
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  26. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I know, lets create a huge drama when there isn't one!

    Comparing them to the NHS is just weird!

    Blimey talk about going over the top. Threatening to sue them, what for?

    The poll on here shows that most people are planning to get TSW2 at some point, and I suspect many who have said no will get it when they see it so I don't think they have gone into hiding.
     
  27. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Well let us know how you get on?
     
  28. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Has left the building Staff Member

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    Sumit please watch your tone when you return from your suspension. Hostility toward other users does not make your argument any stronger.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2020
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  29. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    It may have been a little abstract but do you have to take things so literally? I half expected you to say "The NHS don't make Train Simulators".

    The point was that DTG have decided to in effect make TSW in it's current format, obsolete, because it would take too much work for it to port across all of the present DLC's (of which there aren't that many really). They have in my opinion take the easier option. Easier because it is less work.

    That is where my NHS analogy came from. It would be less work for them if they only had to deal with healthy people! The easier option!

    All companies regardless will develop new products, but if you are old enough to own a car for example, would you expect them to stop repairing your one year old car because they have introduced a newer model? Yes, they may stop supplying new parts for it, but they allow others to make pattern part which will fit.

    Now depending on your understanding (I have no idea how old you are or if English is your first language, so sometimes colloquialisms and phrases may not come acroos well) so I will try and keep it simple. I am accepting that DTG have decided to move on and introduce a "newer" product (TSW2), I am not happy they have decided they will no longer be repairing the older product (TSW2020) which still has outstanding issues. And I am not happy that they are not allowing the community the ability so they can "repair" the outstanding issues with the software they will no longer supporting.

    And just as a further "kick in the teeth" so to speak, please buy our brand new DLC on 19th June which we won't be fixing any issues with after 6th August! And if you think it won't have issues you are very naive. Name me any software that has EVER been released that has been 100% perfect from the outset.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2020
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  30. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Yes English is my first language!! And, I do own my own car, two actually, one is 34 years old and one is 43 so I can't help with your analogy there as the manufacturer of one doesn't even exist anymore!

    I don't know the in's and out's of making a train simulator as I am not a developer but from what I can see the old version was holding things back, maybe that is why it is too much effort to port the new stuff across, maybe it wouldn't work in the new version without major surgery!. I don't know, maybe you are right and maybe they are just lazy or incompetent or just after money, maybe you have far more knowledge how these things work than I do.

    By the way, thank you for not using words of more than three syllables!
     
  31. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    Of course you can, if the manufacturers don't exist, how do you get spares or repair them? Someone else will be making them or you make them yourself.

    I agree maybe the old one was holding things back, but instead of turning out relatively mediocre DLC's like some of the more recent ones, why didn't they put that effort into making sure the existing DLC's could carry forward? If they had been more open and said "No more DLC's until August when we will be releasing a new version running the latest UE engine we have available at this time" that would have, again in my opinion, gone down a lot better with the community as a whole. In my opinion that decision would be down to money, because there's no money in going back over old stuff.

    You are more than welcome, but as this forum has younger members and those from elsewhere around the world, you can't assume anything. It was not meant as an insult.
     
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  32. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    Where's Dtg Gone?

    They’re in The Winchester, waiting for all this to blow over.
     
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  33. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I know, I was just being mischievous!

    Well there is still a reasonable amount of old stock around. Some parts like body panels are hard to find. Things like spark plugs often fittted many vehicles. Fan belts are a problem as even new ones are 30 years old and the rubber weakens with time. Hopefully someone will make new ones at some point.
     
  34. andref.maccarini

    andref.maccarini Member

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    Thanks for the response. I'll admit I'm a bit salty about all the unfixed bugs and content being left behind in TSW.
    I've been exploring some old content like Weardale and Settle to Carlisle lately and I really wish DTG went back to a similar standard of quality. Longer, polished routes instead of things like the latest canadian route with a bunch of lines missing.
     
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  35. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    That's pretty much a point, actually. You can fix your car up yourself even if the manufacturer is not supporting it anymore. In the case of TSW however, can you fix up the current content yourself? You can't. Because there is no route editor to clone and fix up/extend the routes like you could do in Train Simulator. Also the Scenario Editor will only work with the new routes, so we can't even make new scenarios for the old DLCs. So pretty much all the hope regarding bugfixes, route extensions and scenarios/timetables with better traffic is now gone.
     
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  36. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    I think it is reasonable for them to generally speaking... take a few days to take stock of the avalanche of feedback that they asked for....

    Anyway - the Class 20 is due in 48 hours..... so there will be some communication inbound.... this week. And the key question for the Class 20...... of course... is whether it will be supported under TSW.... beyond 6th August 2020 (and I fully expect the answer to be "yes").

    Edited to Add: Sam did a TS1 stream on 15th June (yesterday), and as I type Matt is doing a stream on Peninsular Corridor....

    Edited Again To Add: But it looks like the mods are pushing TSW2 questions away with this standard line "TSW 2 is not being discussed in the regular streams. Ask questions in the forums for a future Q&A stream "
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2020
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  37. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    There will be a class 20 stream on Thursday. So no preview, and no demonstration by Matt. I really think that even DTG have decided that trying to sell the 20 isn't worth the effort...
     
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  38. jazznsf

    jazznsf Member

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    So... to "put my money where my mouth is" I just added two new DLC packages to TSW 2020 picked up on the June sale. (They're downloading now.) I'm having fun with TSW... and that's all that really matters, at least to me. If there are "bugs" or perceived slights by DTG to the long-established folks who have many more hours and countless more posts on the boards than I do... hmmm... I don't quite know what to say except what I've already said: if you're really that upset why do you continue to bang your head against that rock? Move along...

    LucasLCC - I meant - and stand by - every word I wrote. In this world there are lots bigger issues: cops killing innocent people and neo-nazis in Britain sending cops to hospital. If people want to be upset or feel insulted over something, maybe they should look there. (Hence my comment about living with Mom and Dad. Once you've lived through a few decades, a bug or two in a game isn't high on the list of things to complain or be upset about.)

    I come here to learn from the group when I hit a snag in operation I cannot figure out, and to relax after working all day... usually with a pint. In fact, it would be most fun to sit around and share a pint or two with many of the people whose posts and comments I read on the board but - alas - going to a pub is not "in the cards" for me right now. (And in my particular pub there aren't any railfans... though there are a few gearheads and a couple of former pilots to trade tall tales with.)

    Am I upset about the release of TSW2, and the "abandonment" of TSW? Absolutely not. Microsoft bailed on Flight Sim over a decade ago. It still "plays" just fine (on a second dedicated SSD) and I can still use all of the buggy add-ons and third party software I purchased over a decade ago. And it still crashes right in the middle of a flight now and again just like it always has. My solution? Reboot. Gives me time to refill my pint glass... :)
     
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  39. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    You've just hit the nail on the head. Third party software.

    Microsoft Flight Sim might have been abandoned a long time ago, but ever since you've been able to build third party add ons and build your collection. Even when Dovetail upgraded it and released Flight Simulator X all the old DLC was compatible.
     
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  40. davidh0501

    davidh0501 Well-Known Member

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    I agree about the third party software. The sheer quantity of workshop items for TS is one of it's greatest strengths.

    Unfortunately the complexity of the new engine means that simple modding and editing has become far too complicated if you want to maintain a certain standard. What editing we will be permitted in the new version is severely restricted.
    After all how many mods have we seen since TSW first appeared?
     
  41. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    It was made easier for mods in TS1 with the release of an editor for everyone from the beginning.

    The video showcasing the editor in 2018, showed that it was possible to do and would have been relatively simple for those who are already capable of producing quality content to learn to use.

    However, the decision has been taken not to release it, so it's made it complicated for anyone wanting to do any mods. Unless you have a real knowledge and passion for that sort of thing, I would guess you're not going to bother.

    I get the impression, and this is my opinion, that for some reason DTG don't particularly want people producing 3rd party content for TSW, so are making it as difficult as possible.

    Whether that is for financial reasons, they want their share of the proceeds from official 3rd party content so are only allowing other software companies to collaborate who they have contracts with. Or, is it because an editor would allow users too much access to the core code of the whole game.

    Regardless, I don't believe that the TSW franchise will ever have anything close to TS1, if anything at all, as far as approved user 3rd party content is concerned.

    (EDIT: added some words which are underlined purely to show which have been added, not to emphasise)
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2020
  42. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Has left the building Staff Member

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    We very much do want 3rd party add-ons for Train Sim World which is why the partner program exists. The point of differentiation worth making here is 3rd party (ie other developers) vs user generated content. We're working to pursue both (no news on either) more vigorously, but note that there is a technical difference between a mod-maker and 3rd party for the purposes of conversation.
     
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  43. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    Yeah I highly doubt they would purposely hold back the public editor. I mean they must be aware of the fact that the editor and user made content was one of the greatest selling points for TS1 as well. I personally enjoyed the editor the most even way back when it was still just Rail Simulator.

    So financially there would be no point in purposely not releaseing an editor, when it just drives people away from your game. I think a big portion of the train simulator community is not buying TSW and sticking to TS1 because of the lack of editor in TSW. I mean I know for a fact that many people in my country are doing exactly this. If the editor finally got released, these people would jump into TSW, start producing user made content, that would make even more people get into TSW after seeing all the nice user made content.

    I'm pretty sure DTG knows this (well I hope so, at least), so yeah, as I believe it when DTG Protagonist says they're still working on a public editor, it's just painfully slow for whatever reason. Anyway I know I've been complaining a lot since the announcement of TSW2, but I still have hope in them and wish them good luck for their work on the editor.
     
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  44. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I don't think they would discourage third party DLC even if not sold through them. There may be people who would purchase a particular route that say SSS make and therefore obviously purchase the base sim too. They might directly make money from it but I can't see how it is to the detriment.
     
  45. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    For the time being though, neither are they doing anything to promote or enable user 3rd party content. Hopefully that can change, as the community adds so much to the whole experience.

    DTG obviously appreciate that, hence the Workshop Wednesday streams for TS1. It would be nice at some point for something similar for the TSW franchise.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2020
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  46. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    DTG are the publisher on Steam, and on PlayStation. Even if 3rd parties could self-publish content on their own websites (for sale), I am not sure how it would work on PlayStation... (I literally have no idea either way).

    I note that the Stirling Office's first contribution was published by DTG, for the purposes of sale on Steam and PlayStation.
     
  47. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    The point I was making was that for example, Steam Sounds Supreme sell steam engine sounds and a couple of routes (plus several freeware routes) for TS1.

    When someone buys the SSS Stainmore Route, the proceeds don't go to DTG but someone might want the Stainmore route and have never used TS1 before so therefore will purchase the simulator and/or might then start looking at what else is available. Or, they might purchase a route and decide that some of DTG's offerings would be able to used on it. Therefore, even if it is only a relatively small amount of DTG's income, they may well benefit from both payware and freeware suppliers and therefore I cannot see why they would not want to encourage outside content.

    Maybe the situation with TSW is different and maybe we will never have the same level of outside content as before, maybe it isn't possible, maybe too much hassle, ,maybe too expensive to enable, maybe too difficult for many to use unless they have a doctorate in computer science! It is all maybe's because we don't know.

    Conspiracy theories are not helpful in my opinion.
     
  48. jazznsf

    jazznsf Member

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    I like TSW. I have fun with it. When I no longer feel that way I'll stop using the software, and have the bonus of no old boxes or CDs (or floppies) to dispose of. That's a step in the right direction... much better for our planet, yes?

    theorganist made a great point: conspiracy theories are not helpful

    I'm going to take a "wait and see" attitude about TSW2. The last time I jumped into brand new gaming software was when SimCity was "reimagined" by EA. That was a complete disaster and, up until this year, I had not purchased any new gaming software. Since 2013...

    An old friend of mine likes to say, "If you want to get somebody's attention, hit 'em in the wallet." I'm going to wait for a bit on the new Flight Sim too... see what everybody has to say on the forums. Hopefully I'll be in the next round of late Alpha testing, or early Beta testing.

    In the meantime, it's off to complete another service...
     
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