What's The Plan, Dtg? (+poll)

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by Monder, Jun 15, 2020.

?
  1. Currently announded version (release date, price, "preserved collection")

    44 vote(s)
    29.7%
  2. Postponed 6 months, double the price, old content compatibility + fixes

    104 vote(s)
    70.3%
  1. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    (I only got to the Q/A stream today, so my reaction is a bit delayed)

    I wholeheartedly welcome the more open approach from DTG and exact answers, but this also means I get to work with what I'm told and with all these new information being given to us about TSW2 I would like to know, what's the bigger idea DTG has with the game and the TSW platform as a whole? What are we supposed to expect?

    I personally own nearly all TSW2020 content, my expectation wasn't for it to suddenly become flawless, I didn't even expect for some of the DLCs to get the necessary fixes... BUT when I bought, for example, HRR couple months ago, my expectation was to see 425 on other routes in the future. Maybe see new German trains on this route (you know... ICE3?). Is it unreasonable to expect this? You have repeatedly mentioned how many work hours and resources have been put in EVERY DLC and now you just throw all of it away? BR 204 is stuck with 3 scenarios, 7 services and flipped bogey forever? If it were just the vehicles that would get ported to new routes, it would still be worth it. Köln - Aachen now seems just like an emptier GWE, you will only have 1442 and 406 running there, no freight, nothing, even though those vehicles have already been made. "Drive whatever you want wherever you want" after release will be just "Drive CSX locos... on routes, they're too big for."

    So... what mindset should I change my expectations to? Will there be TSW3 once again rendering all previous stuff "preserved"/obsolete? How long should I expect my DLCs to be looked after and used in the future? What should the 3rd party developers expect? 204 didn't bring much content when it came into the game and just a couple months later it has even less value.

    This definitely seems to be a greater issue here on forums. While the price for TSW2 is really good and wouldn't be a problem on its own, it seriously makes me doubt the worth of larger investments into the game. I don't want to buy content for it to just be basically thrown away when you move to yet another UE version. And I think this would very well be worth looking into again and trying to fix it. I am no developer, but even if the code behind is busted, you still have the models, sounds, references. Nobody would mind later release date, maybe even higher cost, if it meant such a huge improvement.

    Maybe it's just me being weird, so I would like to ask the rest of you if you would be willing to "sacrifice" time and money for a change in what we are to get, so maybe even DTG knows, if we are willing to wait and/or pay for the stuff that we now talk about so loudly.

    (The example in the poll is purposefully a bit more radical, so it's not just an "I will give you one more dollar and five days to fix it" option, but I would like you to answer with all honesty if you would truly pay double and wait for another half a year or if that is too much)
     
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  2. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    On the current information we have, the only money I'm giving to DTG is for heavily reduced TS1 DLC'S.

    I'll keep watching the release schedule but at the moment, they're going to have to do something special and possibly change some things they have announced such as making older DLC compatible, which I know isn't going to happen.

    I know my 24.99 probably won't hurt the bank balance, but if enough people feel the same, then that amount soon becomes quite considerable in a niche community like this.
     
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  3. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    The update for the 204 will probably come along with the Class 20.
     
  4. bart2day

    bart2day Well-Known Member

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    Great question Monder and I’m totally with you on this. I’d be willing to pay £49.99 for TSW2 if they bug fixed and made current DLC compatible. When I spoke to Matt about 18 months ago, he clearly said that the intention was to allow customers to build their collection and let their locos run on other routes in the future, such as the examples you give. It seems like they have ended that approach and are happy for customers collections to be frozen.
     
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  5. Michael Newbury

    Michael Newbury Well-Known Member

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    I choose the hold off and bring current routes up to date so that we use the new features in TSW2 the way they're supposed to be used. This way those can also continue to receive updates as needed.
     
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  6. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    Excellent poll question - one of the best that I have seen for a very long time. It would be interesting to see the result if you can get, say, a couple of hundred votes.
     
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  7. fanta1682002

    fanta1682002 Well-Known Member

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    yes
     
  8. Jannerdunk

    Jannerdunk Well-Known Member

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    If DTG had announced the underground route for the original TSW for £24.99, I would have said take my money now.

    Monder, I also bought some of the recent german DLC (not my main area of interest) with the expectation that it would be both available for use in other routes and potentially, the assets might be needed for use with user created content, once the editor was released.

    This is were DTG have badly misunderstood their customers. Its not just about the DLC we already have, its about whether they will do exactly the same thing when TSW3 and TSW4 etc eventually comes along. For this reason, I can't justify my continued investment in the game. In all honesty I might pick up TSW2 if and when its discounted at a future point, but I certainly won't be rushing out to buy every single DLC as its released.
     
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  9. montes_1234

    montes_1234 Well-Known Member

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    Very bad decision for us rail enthusiasts. To realease tsw2 and basically to lock out older content from tsw is really smack in the face. Old locos wagons coaches should be able to be put on the new routes. Like this we will never have the diversity that we are hoping for. Also should we expect that every two three years new tsw will come out. So that always has to start from the beggining. Its shameful.
     
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  10. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    The thing is that you know at least some of these routes, locos and rolling stock are going to re-appear in TSW2 at some point. They'll look, sound and drive exactly the same as those in TSW2020, primarily because they are the same as those from TSW2020 just with the added bonus of a 24.99 price tag for routes and 11.99 for locos!

    And don't try the "There not compatible" argument. It's only because DTG has decided they're incompatible, no other reason.
     
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  11. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Has left the building Staff Member

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    That is inaccurate. There is a significant amount of work required to bring each route and loco into line with the new game. In some cases it requires entirely rebuilding models from the ground up. We gain nothing by not having everything fully compatible, even if your conspiracy theory were true we'd still have to build the new versions in order to sell them. Far better to continue to sell what's already available, and continuing to sell at a respectable rate.
     
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  12. montes_1234

    montes_1234 Well-Known Member

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    Gain nothing!? Than that is some bad decisions and planning are taking place, which is not assuring that the same wont happen after tsw2. Oops we must tsw3 in order to add dynamic weather, or station anouncements.
     
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  13. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    A significant amount of work is different to incompatible. Totally incompatible is trying to run a petrol engine on water. Even a square peg will fit in a round hole if you shave the corners off! It's still Unreal engine based not a totally different one.

    Again thanks for taking the time to reply.
     
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  14. Matto140

    Matto140 Well-Known Member

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    Postponed 6 months ?
    I don't know how crystal ball work, but maybe DTG Protagonist can ask someone at DTG to provide more qualified estimate under the condition that new content will not be produced. I would say, it is about 12-18 months. Imagine the consequences yourself.
     
  15. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    It depends what "significant" means. I think it just means "non-zero". I still think that with respect to locos, that the work required would be very near to zero. Testing might take time though, should they be inclined to carry out any testing (if it was necessary).

    Here are some things that would not need to be re-done for locos:

    - carrying out research on loco specification and operation;
    - getting basic dimensions and layout drawings;
    - 3D model build;
    - acquiring photographs and textures;
    - applying bespoke artwork textures;
    - acquiring sounds and editing them;
    - associating sounds with parts of the 3D model;
    - associating scripts with animated parts (wheels, switches, windows, wipers);
    - etc.

    Here are some things you could copy and paste from another model, and tweak;

    - scripting for the control/motion of the locomotive within a TSW2 compliant route; and,
    - scripting other connections to the trigger events/variables in Simugraph.

    The above tweaking would take some "non-zero" effort. But once you have a working example (pretty much any working example), the changes required would be minimal, predictable, and easy to apply. You could streamline the workflow fairly easily. There would be some additional light scripting required to complete the "substitutions" for specific scenarios, but you would not need to do that if you just made the TSW locos Quick Driveable in the "Scenario Planner".
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2020
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  16. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, it would be interesting to hear from DTG what it would actually take. If what Plastic Pal said above...
    ...it would seem absolutely doable and with the whole march to 4.23.1 taking them 9 months according to the stream information, 6 months for a relatively repetitive task should be ok. Then again my programming skills end with Matlab. :D
     
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  17. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    This is the kick in the teeth...

    What about existing users? We purchased the DLC in good faith, expecting it not to be outdated so soon (just over a month from release in some cases). We also expected bug fixes. All so well and good selling the DLC in the future, but surely customer retention is important?

    It definitely seems that new customers are preferred over existing customers.
     
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  18. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    That appears to be the policy of a lot of companies nowadays, load of deals and offers for new customers. No rewards for loyalty to any brand anymore.
     
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  19. hyperlord

    hyperlord Well-Known Member

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    Monder Thank you for formulation of the exact same feeling I have
     
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  20. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    Well now the patch notes are out and there's nothing there about BR 204, only Class 47.
     
  21. Oystein

    Oystein Well-Known Member

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    You want me to believe that DTG have to make the 3d models again to make it compatible with the "new" version of TSW?

    Within a year or two we will see many of the old DLCs released as new products for TSW2, especially the loco DLC. DTG, do we have to pay for them again or will we get them for free?
     
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  22. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    Well for the livery editor I could believe it to be the case, considering the old models probebly weren't made with this livery editor system in mind. In best case scenario they need to redo the UV mapping I suppose, which is pretty much just as hard as making the model itself.
     
  23. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    And maybe that would be a reasonable argument.... if the old TSW content worked with the new Livery Editor.... which (I assume)...... they won't.
     
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  24. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    Well yeah, this is the reason they don't work.
     
  25. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    Given that the livery editor isn't shareable, I'd really be surprised if it ends up being popular. I know that I won't end up using it, but I'd happily import someone elses creation.

    Personally, I'd rather they made things backwards compatible as opposed to a livery editor.
     
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  26. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    The PC community probably will find a way to share them, same for the scenario editor. On consoles though, I doubt it. As to why they felt like releasing such editors without a sharing feature is acceptable, I have no idea. It's pretty much a must have. I mean why should everyone create the same livery from scratch when one person can do it and share it with everyone else? It's just so silly.
     
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  27. montes_1234

    montes_1234 Well-Known Member

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    How the multiplayer will be implemented if such simple things like livery sharing are such a struggle!? :)
     
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  28. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    Easy, there will be no multiplayer :cool:.
     
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  29. Oystein

    Oystein Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I can see that some changes to the UV-map and materials might be required to make it compatible with livery editor. I think it is more a question of having masks for the different parts of the loco, which can easily be made with Substance painter. But the livery editor is not a deal braker for me at all, I simply won't use it unless there is a sharing option. But I would love to use the BR185.2 or BR155 on the new German route, for example.
     
  30. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    Well I wouldn't mind having old stock compatible but not with editable liveries compared to not having it compatible at all.
     
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  31. Trooper117

    Trooper117 Active Member

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    I voted to postpone the release... I'd like my preserved content to be fully integrated into the new game.
    Have to say though, that will never happen as the wheels are already in motion for the new release.
     
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  32. British Ace

    British Ace Member

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    Shame we didn't even get a Class 313, East Coastway feels pretty empty just with the odd freight train and the one railtour, and the basic class 377. Would've loved multiplayer on one of my local routes,
     
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  33. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    I am not very familiar with UK railroads, but even I have noticed so many requests for 313 and I thought that would be quite a certain addition to ECW, which is a lovely route.
     
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  34. CaptHart

    CaptHart New Member

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    I suppose I am in the minority but here are my top five reasons for wanting the release of TSW2 to go ahead as scheduled in August (in no particular order):

    1) I can't wait to use the Scenario Editor. So, so many times even with a large selection of available stops on the timetable services I have wanted to make my own customized schedules with my choice of locos and destinations.

    2) New HUD with more and better info on the routes and safety systems. Admittedly I haven't seen the new version yet but we all recognize the shortcomings of the current HUD.

    3) ICE high speed. I have a need for speed.

    4) Bakerloo London Underground. When I get tired of speed and just want to do some serious commuter stop-and-go.

    5) Online logging via Dovetail Live of my virtual train driver efforts, i.e. Driver Logs, Driver Level, Debriefs. I'm not much of a forum player (as you can see from my post total vs. my longevity as a Dovetail Live member), but I drive the bogies off of my trains and it would be nice to see who the well-tenured and experienced members of our community are.

    Peace.
     
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  35. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I say this respectfully, but there seems to be many who know better then DTG about creating content and compatibility. It is alright disbelieving someone from DTG when they say it would take it takes a considerable amount of work to make some models compatible, but that doesn't make it true, just because you can say "don't give me that". It is easy to bawl from the sidelines and accuse someone of telling untruths as you don't have to prove you are right and you will soon have enough around you joining in and suddenly it is common knowledge that DTG are not being accurate, because enough people believe something which isn't proven. It is a bit like mob rule.

    As for the poll, well it is obvious what the poll will decide as it is playing to the gallery, doesn't mean that it is the right thing for DTG to do.

    I suspect in a couple of years we will have moved on from these conversations and have almost forgotten about the angst, and I wouldn't be surprised if some of what is desired doesn't come to fruition anyway in the end!
     
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  36. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    The poll is reflecting the current feelings of the community, there have been 103 people who have cast a vote, the majority of who have not expressed any other comment as there have only been 35 posts in the thread up to yours from approximately 17 people. It's also anonymous so there's no peer pressure applied to anyone. I don't see how you can say the poll is playing to the gallery.

    I suspect you may be right.
     
  37. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Has left the building Staff Member

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    To clear up one item above "sharing is easy", here are the steps involved.
    1. Full cross-platform sharing means that it has to be a wholly-operated-by-DTG system built within the game itself (ie not using the Steam Workshop - which, incidentally, is also not exactly plug and play).
    2. Policy must be decided and legally vetted with regard to the display and/or sharing of inappropriate or copyright infringing material.
    3. Systems to moderate content need to be designed and implemented. This includes the ability to remove any content moderated from users who have it installed. Example: user A creates Spiderman livery and shares it, 500 users, download it, Marvel request it is removed from the sharing eco-system...
    4. A whole lot of security testing, certification with individual platforms, worst-case scenario testing. The works. If a livery made on PC can brick someone's someone's console, that's really bad.

    None of this is to say that sharing is impossible and will never been seen, but there's a little more to it than giving a file to your mate Dave so he can use it.
     
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  38. Trenomarcus

    Trenomarcus Well-Known Member

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    Thanks, DTG Protagonist for clarification. Personally as a customer, I don't care how much work is needed. Planning enough development time to make it happen is your job. Then my "job" is to decide if it is worth buying with or without that particular feature.
     
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  39. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    I voted for the current plan. Although there are disappointments attached to the lack of backward compatibility of the new features, I wouldn’t want six months of very little or no new content being released for TSW to enable it. That’s the realistic prospect of option two, plus the fact that there would be very little income for DTG while all this work would be going on and that would not be good for anyone. I don’t think doubling the price would cover it, or be a good move at all, as new players would be put off by it, and new players help to pay those pesky bills.
     
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  40. nielsmallant100

    nielsmallant100 Well-Known Member

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    a few things;
    I still can't comprehend why it is imbedded in DTG's system that something has to be available for all to be a thing at all. Console users need to accept that not everything is possible within their systems (like the editor hehe). So I don't see why it not working for console is reason to keep it from PC users.
    Also, if people create liveries with logo's, you have no legal issues with them sharing them (I can already make repaints with logo's on PC, I share them, no one is stopping me.) As long as you don't charge money for them or endorse them there is no case.
    if the system works well, and it works on all platforms, a simple texture file transfer couldn't ever brick someone's console, unless you guys do something magical with it, which I wouldn't understand
     
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  41. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    Yeah it's not a problem in games like Forza or Gran Turismo or Need for Speed either, even though the in-game livery sharing system in these games is full of liveries with copyrighted characters and brand logos.
     
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  42. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    If people believe that DTG should be amalgamating content because they have been told on here that is what they should be doing and that basically DTG are lying when they say they can't or it is too much work, then they are likely to vote for that option.

    It sounds like the most attractive option for many as that is what they want to happen, but that doesn't make it the right thing for DTG to do. As stated above, how does that affect their cash flow for a start?
     
  43. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    However there current methods will affect their cash flow in different ways. I know I'm not the only one that is going to be more cautious buying dlc in the future. The days of me buying most dlc is over.

    They made the decision to release a livery editor, however decided to not make stuff backwards compatible. They had development time, but they decided to use it on something that has limited use as opposed to something wanted by the majority.
     
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  44. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    If people have voted for a particular option I would like to think they have done so because that's their opinion. To suggest otherwise is being disrespectful to them, suggesting they can't think for themselves.

    As someone as stated in a previous post, DTG's cash flow is of not my problem. This is not a Kickstarter project so I shouldn't be expected to pay for development. Jack Daniels don't ask me pay up front and then wait 7 years before I can have a bottle of their finest 7 old beverage. They manage their cashflow accordingly.

    I have never accused DTG of lying. Being economical with the truth or wording things in such a way to be ambiguous possibly.

    As for can't, well my Grandma always said there's no such word a can't. Nearly everything is possible depending how much money and effort you are prepared to put in. So saying things can't be done in the TSW2 situation, in my opinion, is more that it's too expensive, too time consuming or a combination of both.
     
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  45. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    That is the point I was making when I said whether it is best for DTG, if it is too expensive or time consuming, I think that was the point DTG Protagonist was making, I might be wrong. No one said it couldn't be done from what I can see.

    No it isn't, nor is it mine neither anyone else's here (although if you want to keep playing train simulation it could be), but it would be DTG's problem and to shrug it off like that is being incredibly naive, they are a business have wages and other costs to pay. Without cash flow a business eventually loses money, lays people off, maybe goes bankrupt, again not your problem, there are many companies at the moment struggling with this exact problem.

    It is natural for humans to be swayed by the views of those around them, not a case of not thinking for themselves but a case of herd mentality.

    However I do think many on here are rightly sceptical but I think very few try and look at things from DTG's point of view. And phrases like "DTG's cash flow is not my problem" is a prime example of that.
     
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  46. LastTrainToClarksville

    LastTrainToClarksville Well-Known Member

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    Contributors to this thread seem to forget that "postponed 6 months" is a notion created by Monder, not DTG/
     
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  47. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Has left the building Staff Member

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    All your feedback is received and being passed forward. I'll leave you to decide whether a decision made by DTG is good or not, I'm only going to try and offer more information when it's possible to do so.
     
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  48. LimitedEdiition

    LimitedEdiition Well-Known Member

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    I agree. I'm not going to speak for others, but I personally have bought the vast majority of TSW's DLCs that are relevant to my interests (modern passenger equipment). Although I have had personal issues probably with most of the DLCs that I've bought (longstanding bugs, inadequate service mode, etc.) the content is still enjoyable and the base game is still relatively complete. However, I just don't see any benefit to continue doing so considering all of this content could be thrown away at the end of Dovetail's fiscal year. Who knows how soon TSW3 will come, and if our TSW2 DLCs will ever be "remastered" onto the new platform. You could make the argument that the content "still works" but just doesn't have any of the new features, but that's not good enough in my opinion, especially considering that some DLCs like the Class 20 are obsolete the moment it released. I've made this analogy before, but it's like if the next annual FIFA/sports game released, but they only added new jersey options and new graphics for certain teams and not others.
     
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  49. Trooper117

    Trooper117 Active Member

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    It's interesting that TSW3 is being mentioned... not TSW 2022 or TSW 2025 etc, but TSW3... think about it.
     
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  50. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    Granted there are many problems with the sharing of liveries, but I think that with the scenarios there are less of them. No rights needed for example. I am going to assume based on the Q/A stream - from what has been said - I think the scenarios could be shared using some simple codes. You'd have characters in the "sharing code" for time, stops, etc. and if another user put this code in his game, it would "build" the scenario from these instructions. You would just be sharing text, no need for complex sharing system, just punch the text in the forum.
    I asked people to vote honestly. Therefore it can be assumed people want something, but would we willing to pay for it. I specifically asked for about 30 euros, that's not herd mentality.

    As for DTG's view - I am willing to hear their side of the story.
     
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