So Where's The Promised Content I Paid For?

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by Raytheon, Jul 16, 2020.

  1. Raytheon

    Raytheon New Member

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    From your FAQ on TSW2 website:

    On Multiplayer:
    "Multiplayer is not part of Train Sim World 2, but it’s on our future roadmap."

    On Editor:
    "We know from both closed door testing and working with experienced third-party developers that this isn’t an easy editor to use and until we have resolved these issues, we are not going to release anything more widely."

    As a TSW customer who bought the first game specifically for the promised editor and Multiplayer years ago, why should I ever trust or purchase another Dovetail game like TSW2?
     
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  2. Trenomarcus

    Trenomarcus Well-Known Member

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    They admitted the error of communicating about those topics. If they really changed and will never lie again about a feature, we don't know.
     
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  3. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    You could buy products for what they actually contain and not what they might contain in the future, promised or otherwise. If you only want a train simulator with editor and multiplayer then you should look elsewhere. They are most definitely not included (or promised) in TSW2. If you decide that the included features are worth the asking price then you can be safe in the knowledge that all those features will be included and nothing more. Trust and faith won’t come into it then.
     
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  4. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I don't remember the editor being promised certainly not in the beginning, I didn't even know if there would ever be one. I don't remember multiplayer being promised either, but that doesn't interest me so I would probably not have taken any notice of it.

    I purchased TSW for the graphics, service mode and the fact it was another simulator. It looked good when it came out and when GWE came out I purchased it then. I certainly wouldn't purchase anything based upon what might happen in the future and if you were "specifically" waiting for an editor or multiplayer why not wait till they are available and then purchase TSW? Doesn't make sense to me to be honest!
     
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  5. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Has left the building Staff Member

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    You shouldn't.

    The big wishlist of aspirations for Train Sim World was freely spoken of when the game first came out without the necessary work having been done to evaluate what was possible. That was naive and driven by enthusiasm. The upshot however, was that it led players to expect something that could not be delivered.

    With the release of Train Sim World 2, more is certainly possible, but please act in a once-bitten-twice-shy fashion. If there's a single piece of functionality you require in order to be satisfied with the game do not buy it until that functionality is present. Even then, check user reviews or videos of it in action before making a decision.

    We're trying not to give any false expectation with what we're including in the game, and when the roadmap is released ahead of its launch you'll get visibility of what is coming and (roughly) when. Providing this roadmap is updated regularly it should give you an accurate picture of what we're doing. The way we described the original launch was driven by aspiration, not by reality. A mistake that we've learned from.
     
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  6. JP_4468

    JP_4468 Member

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    In future do your own due diligence on a product before you buy it, not complain years later about something that was indeed something that was wiped up by the community out of the smallest thing, allowed to snowball and fester and be passed off as a "promise". Yes all this talk of "promise" has come from the community and you chose to believe that and buy in to it So that is on you, on you for not actually checking on what you are buying before you are buying it and allowing yourself to be misled by a group that quite frankly give them an inch and they'll try running for a mile with it. Sadly it's a fact that some people out there will take the smallest of things and hype it up out of all proportion, that they lie to themselves, they believe that lie and then start passing it on to others. I don't recall ever being promised an editor or multiplayer, but instead them being in the future that would hopefully come in the future whenever that might be.. What one person would like to see happen is not a promise, and the fault is on those that misinterpreted it as a promise and led others to believe the same thing.

    In fact please someone show me in writing or a clip of a video where the words "promise" was used by anyone official to the company, it being said by the community won't count.
     
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  7. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Has left the building Staff Member

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    In this case, that's unnecessary because Raytheon has a point. DTG publicly stated on video that multiplayer was planned to be included in TSW during the run up to release. Then there's the editor... frankly that was spoken of enough times that nobody would be blamed for having expected it. It was always mentioned as something we wanted to release.

    Disappointment in how we discussed upcoming features ahead of time is reasonable, and has resulted in justifiable criticism. We're aiming to do better, and part of that means taking the criticism leveled at our communications.
     
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  8. fanta1682002

    fanta1682002 Well-Known Member

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    i not like Multiplayer tsw2
     
  9. andref.maccarini

    andref.maccarini Member

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    I'm sorry for being the one to say it, but that wasn't a case of naiveness or enthusiasm. It was a flat-out lie:

    At 6:49:
    "There absolutely will be multiplayer in Train Sim World, absolutely! [...] With the way that we've been able to build Train Sim World, we can do that."

    I know you said Dovetail acknowledged the mistake and wants to make things right, but let's not engage in revisionism.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2020
  10. fanta1682002

    fanta1682002 Well-Known Member

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    wa tsw old video
     
  11. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    For £25 you get two (or three) new routes, is that enough reason to buy it? If you will get plenty of use from it as it stands then I would say it is.
    If it was a lie then that means you are saying that when they made that statement, they knew it wasn't going to happen?!

    I suspect they had every intention of delivering what they said but realised they had bitten off more than they could chew.

    Anyway I am sure we have gone over this ground many times over the last few weeks!
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2020
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  12. andref.maccarini

    andref.maccarini Member

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    By DTG's own admission promises were made "without the necessary work having been done to evaluate what was possible."
    But DTG also declared they had built TSW in a way that made multiplayer absolutely possible. In other words, they said they had done the necessary work to make multiplayer doable.

    I don't know what rethorical tricks you could concoct to successfully claim that is not a lie.
     
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  13. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    I personally wasn't affected by indications of multi-player and a full $billion UE game developer SDK being part of a future feature set for TSW. But very many people were, as you have accepted. Many thanks for accepting/explaining this so very clearly (....and it will be needed to be said again and again for a while to come.....).

    One impression that I did get was that if you bought an ultra-expensive single loco DLC, then there would be some flexibility in TSW to use it on other future routes, which did not transpire (say, the Class 52 being trapped on WSR). And although I would still prefer to see this rectified in TSW as a standalone product, I am perfectly content to see this now being addressed in TSW2 - and if Scenario Planner is the tool that helps to ensure that all locos/consists can be run on all routes (within limits for length of consist), then that is fine by me.

    The addition in TSW2 of substitution for TSW legacy locos (in existing scenarios) is a bonus. The addition of new services for TSW legacy locos, for example, as described for Cologne-Aachen.... was a super extra unexpected bonus (and very welcome indeed).

    Thank You.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2020
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  14. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    I don't think that DTG actually went quite that far (I have seen the video). But I would say this:

    At every point when you were offered something for purchase, you had the opportunity to review the product description on the box (or online), and make an informed decision, based on those marketing materials. Those marketing materials always very clearly stated that TSW was a "one-player" game - they were (and still are) labelled in a way that is stunningly clear.

    We need to move on, as a community, with respect to multi-player, and the Editor. We should certainly hold DTG's feet to the fire in the future (I certainly will, until confidence is built-up a bit more...)... ...

    ..........but I think that we should now let go of these issues from the past.... so that we can focus our efforts on the future good of the game.

    DTG Protagonist has been exceptionally clear, and frankly, quite gracious in admitting what went wrong in the past, and fully accepting the impact that it had on customers. It's pretty much an open apology. We can't expect to get anything more from continuing this as a debate.

    It will take time to heal, but "forgiven not forgotten" would be a good target for people to aim at, if (understandably) it is still difficult to forgive....
     
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  15. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Has left the building Staff Member

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    I know the quote very well, not going to dispute it, however there was absolutely no intention to mislead anyone - the launch of TSW did not require any puffing up in order to sell the game, it looked years ahead of what had come before graphically and that alone was sufficient to sell it. There was nothing to be gained in purposefully padding out the feature list with big ticket features the team had no intention of delivering. Everyone involved in TSW wanted (and still wants) to include multiplayer, but the scale of the task had not been given the consideration warranted.

    You are welcome to use the language you want, however there is a difference between lying and simply being wrong.
     
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  16. olsbyn

    olsbyn Active Member

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    Not to swear in the church here..but I kinda am, for those that want multiplayer, why not go to Trainz 2019, it has become a really good game to, and with the right addons it's impossible not to enjoy it.
    The argument for my stance is simple: the more features a game has, the more buggy it gets, I would rather use 2 games to fill my needs than one game with a ton of features asked by the community. I'm a big fan of TSW, which was my introduction to the more serious sims like trains and flight sims, I will actually be satisfied with the game features/content IF there will be a better support for paid addons, like fixing bugs with floating assets, signaling and sounds, to mention some of the returning issues.
     
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  17. fanta1682002

    fanta1682002 Well-Known Member

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    not to enjoy trainz 2019 game
     
  18. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    A big part of this community has been trying to explain this for years. You really nailed exactly how it is with this post and I know the community really appreciates your engagement with us. Enthusiasm is exactly the word for TSW and the editor and multiplayer and I’m very happy DTG has recognized this and have tried very hard to change that for TSW2.
     
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  19. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Has left the building Staff Member

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    Simply for the avoidance of doubt, we are not going to pretend for a second that other train simulators/games don't exist and that some will do a better job than we do. If you make a comparison between any of Dovetail's game and those of other companies in order to illustrate a point or make a recommendation that's absolutely fine with us. If you just want to talk about another game, take it to off-topic, but if (as with the quoted post above) it is related to the subject of the thread, go right ahead.
     
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  20. andref.maccarini

    andref.maccarini Member

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    That is fair enough. I'll make an effort to be more positive in the future.

    It's hard for me to accept this, but since you have way more information than me and has shown good will in the past I'll take your word for it.
    As I said to Plastic Pal, I'll try to be more positive towards Dovetail in the future.
     
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  21. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    I know that DTG have been working on multiplayer (albeit not much) for years - I saw a clip of a basic multiplayer mode in Train Simulator, uploaded by DTG, although the video was deleted. I wonder what prevented it going any further?
     
  22. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    Having two player controlled trains in the same map is just the tip of the iceberg. After that, you need a signal system and scheduler that can handle multiple trains flawlessly. You have to figure out what to do if someone suddenly disconnects, or how a player takes control of a train in the route. What happens if one of the player controlled trains is too slow? How do you prevent that from causing havoc in all the timetable? What about griefers? Imagine someone just wants to crash into other trains. How do you handle that?

    This is just what I came with in a couple minutes. Getting multiplayer to work is really much more complex than it seems. I don't know if DTG has an improved scheduler and signal system that they didn't talk about yet, but AFAIK the current one is not even close to what is needed. They will need to start from scratch (or close to it).

    Unfortunately, every route they are creating now uses the system that is not suited for multiplayer. Each new route that is released is more work that would need to be done to add multiplayer to the game later on. After not long, DTG will figure out that it is too much work to retrofit all the routes and that they need to start fresh. We might get multiplayer with TSW3 if we are lucky, but I doubt they will find a way to do it in TSW2.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2020
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  23. KyleL

    KyleL Well-Known Member

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    here is a video from matt tho its not a real video of multiplayer in TSxx
     

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