Directx Version Upgrade

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by L0-Cache, Jan 25, 2020.

  1. BeenTrain

    BeenTrain Member

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    I think a succesor should be more-or-less compatible with the original. That makes me think TSW is not intended as succesor. More a new, different, product.

    Why can't the TS core not grow in time, just like f.e. MS Word? Documents of Word 95 still work in the latest greatest except for new features. (Silly example, I know )
     
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  2. dunkrez

    dunkrez Well-Known Member

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    I think that's a great example. Doing the same thing with TS is going to be considerably more complex, but the kudos DTG will get for doing it will be well worth the effort.
     
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  3. BeenTrain

    BeenTrain Member

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    Not easy at all.

    What bothers me is I never heard someone say "well this software is 10 years old nothing you can do with it" before. Think about the investment done by developers and users in case of TS.

    IMO Software should evolve slowly in time adapting new technology/features. And yes, sometimes "evolve" means complete rewrite if it is worthwhile. From the users perspective it should not matter. I am sure Microsoft has done rewrites for Word over time to keep the investment alive and worthwhile. Whats an investment in software worth if you can only sell it for 10 years?
     
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  4. dunkrez

    dunkrez Well-Known Member

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    Spot on. Look at the telephony engine, Asterisk, as another example of a core engine that has evolved over a long period of time.

    Could be that DTG got blindsided with TSW sales - long may TSW prosper, but TS is the future for rail hobby types. It should be _the_ standard in train simulation software.
     
  5. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    Microsoft - yes, they have rewritten Word over the years and if you want a new version you have to PAY for it.
    But Word is just an add-on - Windows works with or without it and there are Free options.

    The people who have TSW1 are generally not happy that TSW 2 is coming out and they have to start again - yes, they can take across the stuff they own but they are basically starting again in the TSW World and they have to PAY for the privilege.

    TS has been around for 10 years and if they were to rewrite the core program it might make some/all of the current add-ons useless without the developers rewriting those assets. Are those Developers like AP, Bossman Games Just Trains, Virtual Railroads to name a few, going to change their DLC and do you think it would be free? A Swiss add-on I purchased has been updated but I have to PAY for that update.

    So if the people who have only had TSW1 a few years are unhappy about paying again for basically the same thing with a few upgrades what are the people who are playing TS202x going to say if the upgrade breaks what they own?

    Train Simulator is a Program like Windows and if you change the way it works and it is not backwards compatible then you will upset a lot of Users and Developers who have put a lot of time and money in to the game.

    Yes - it would be nice to have DirectX 12
    No - it would not be nice if it stops me using what I own and I have to either give up with TS202x or start building up my DLC

    Peter
     
  6. BeenTrain

    BeenTrain Member

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    Backwards compatibility is key of course otherwise it is not a succesor.
    I would be happy to pay fo TS 2 if it took my TS library into the future.
     
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  7. dunkrez

    dunkrez Well-Known Member

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    Nobody is asking for a core engine that requires asset rewrites. Hence the TSW content problem.

    A core engine update that retains compatibility with all previously constructed assets. That's the goal, that's the mission.

    We're not looking at reasons as to why it's not possible (otherwise nothing would ever get invented/fixed/innovated by anyone ever). We're looking at reasons as to why it is indeed very possible. You would benefit Peter, god knows why you would argue to the contrary. Perhaps for sport or to play devils advocate :) Why would anyone argue over software that isn't written yet over the fear that said software might break something within the existing software if upgraded? Literally nothing would ever get written if we all had that outlook.

    Onwards and upwards.
     
  8. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Well there is Open Rails which you can use MSTS add-ons with. I am not sure if that is comparable as haven't looked into it but it might show it is possible.
     
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  9. malikrthr

    malikrthr Well-Known Member

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    They should make TS to a similar way Microsoft Office 365 operates. E.G. If you pay for Office 2016, you get only Office 2016 with no further updates. But with Office 365, as long as Office is updated, 2016 --> 2019, you will get the latest version while being subscribed to Office 365. Train Simulator operates in somewhat of a similar fashion it seems while being connected to Steam. TS2015 --> TS2016 --> TS2017 --> etc..

    In this instance, it seems that the TSW side of things are similar to buying Office 2016, you get only that instance of it. While TSW2 can be thought of as if you are purchasing Office 2019.

    I hope that analogy made some kind of sense. It would be nice though if the engine update to Unreal Engine did not render in TSW2 being payware versus a free update.

    Hopefully there is a way to update the TS series to allow it to efficiently take advantage of the latest hardware while still being freeware. If only TS had the same graphics as TSW/TSW2, that would be amazing while still keeping the original HUD.
     
  10. Cyclone

    Cyclone Well-Known Member

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    If you're going to create a new game and expect your entire existing market to jump ship on the old game - especially without providing a workshop or, even in TSW2, the ability to share scenarios created with others - you are dreaming if you think the game will be a successor to the one still getting the support. TSW2 will still perform underwhelmingly, and it's better to put a brand new core in for TS itself. It's overdue.
     
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  11. dunkrez

    dunkrez Well-Known Member

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    Well, I can't afford to invest in it for what it is, sadly, it's just not baked enough. Not sure one sale less will affect much though.
     
  12. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    As the cost of breaking what has gone before. :(
     
  13. dunkrez

    dunkrez Well-Known Member

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    Give up the fear Peter, any core upgrades should not impact any existing assets in a negative way.

    You could argue that as TSW is marked as TS2 prototype in its folder structure, and that no existing TS content works within the TSW engine that the accolade of creating a new core that doesn't support existing content has already been created, rolled out, canned and replaced with TSW2.

    As a software engineer, I expect a core update to retain all functionality of the existing core, support all existing content, but provide a new architecture better fitting to today's cpu designs and offering new features which new assets can take advantage of. Old assets should benefit from better rendering techniques within the new core.

    Pretty straightforward as a goal.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2020
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  14. Cat

    Cat Well-Known Member

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    But what about those with older pcs?
     
  15. Cyclone

    Cyclone Well-Known Member

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    This is why a new core makes sense. All content of the original TS works with TS2, or whatever it is, but the older version remains a separate product. Just like they are planning with TSW2, except it's a half-baked game with no way for us to create and share on it ourselves.

    Also, it's a 2009ish game. If you are worrying about your 2012 CPU on this game, you have bigger things to worry about. I mean, I have one from 2007 in storage that still works, and it might have some kind of graphics card that was good for the time (and a second hard drive), but it really would have needed upgrading even if I was still using it for reasons not related to one specific game, but everything else.
     
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  16. dunkrez

    dunkrez Well-Known Member

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    I figure that graphics quality options will still be provided so that the full spectrum of PC player base can use the software, within reason of course. Don't expect it to run on a Pentium 233 with a GeForce 2 GPU.
     
  17. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    Famous Last Words :D
    So if it is something that is straight forward and will benefit everyone playing the game - why has it not been done before?
    DTG Protagonist ?
     
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  18. dunkrez

    dunkrez Well-Known Member

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    "Pretty straightforward as a goal."; Meaning the definition of what we would like to be achieved is straightforward to define.

    "any core upgrades should not impact any existing assets in a negative way."; Literally what it says. If engineered and tested correctly prior to roll-out, all should be just fine. Did the vignette filter added to the last TS core update break anything Peter? Nope.

    This hasn't been done before because there is no will to do it. Even you Peter, cry it down as often as you can. Perhaps we should just forget this evolution lark and just get back in the sea? Seriously mate, if you want something doing, you have to go out for it.

    So, as an aside, do you have anything positive to add to the mix Peter? :) :) :)
     
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  19. Cat

    Cat Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps DTG don't have the will, or the available staff to make these upgrades. Besides they don't want to make TSxx look and perform too well, it would conflict with TSW.
     
  20. Peter Hayes

    Peter Hayes Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure DTG would want to contemplate, or are even capable of upgrading TS20XX from DirectX 9.0c to 10, 11 or 12.
    Even TSW2 (as was TSW) is only at DirectX 10.0.
    However, there has been a successful upgrade (with mostly backward compatibility) of Microsoft FSX which started off at 9.0c and has been upgraded to DirectX 12.0 by developer Lockheed Martin P3D (Prepar3D). It can be done, but it could take an awful lot of time and money.


    I wrote this when TS2014 was released: This is what I had hoped to see in TS 2014

    With thanks to Lockheed's P3D
    The core rendering engine in TS 12017 to have been completely overhauled and updated from DirectX9 to DirectX11.
    The biggest benefit to this would be that TS2014 would be able take advantage of modern graphics hardware, giving an increase in performance and be able to visualise excellent modern rendering features.

    Object Instancing Upgraded (with thanks to P3D)
    OI allows graphics cards to draw multiple copies of the same object at once, eg trees, scenery, wheels etc. This would have given better images with much less impact to performance with smooth transition and less popping in and out.

    Tessellated Terrain to be applied dynamically on the Graphics Card
    This would take the load off the cpu and all it to be performed dynamically on the graphics card. This would have improved day and night, lighting, shadows textures giving a smoother look.

    Improved Multi-Threading Support
    Utilise multi-threading to allow more work to be done on background threads as opposed to the main processing thread. This could have resulted in performing shader compilation on the background threads which could reduce stutters. The stutters are usually caused by the CPU tried to page in all that terrain and all those textures, without the benefits of improved multi-threading.


    GPU to be used for Particle and Effect System
    This would give more effects and make updating easier.


    Implement Real-Time Shadows and Lighting plus 3D clouds
    This would mean that the terrain would be able to display shadows in real-time as they are seen in the real world plus day and night improvements and weather support. We could them get real-time glow with moonlight and better clouds Seeing the moon or lightning affect the shadows in the virtual cab really adds to the immersion.

    Implement support for specular terrain lighting. What that means is that land classes would support specular values that will affect how they reflect light (snow and roads now reflect light differently, snow is shinier, etc.).
     
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  21. BeenTrain

    BeenTrain Member

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    It won't conflict. Total different game.
     
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  22. dunkrez

    dunkrez Well-Known Member

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    This is brilliant, thank you.
     
  23. Cat

    Cat Well-Known Member

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    I know that, my point is that if the graphics in TSxx were near comparable to TSW graphics it would render TSW superfluous.
    Many comments on the TSW forum want the functionality of TS but with TSW graphics quality. If TS graphics came anywhere near TSW then TSW would be dead in the water.
    Ergo, why would DTG invest in improving too much on the graphics in TS.
     
  24. dunkrez

    dunkrez Well-Known Member

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    TSW will never be superfluous, it caters to consoles and that's a great thing. Without TSW I wouldn't have taken the plunge with TS. TSW is TS's better looking poorly brother.

    TS is for the serious rail hobby types that like the finer details, to tinker and create, not being bound by endless restrictions.
     
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  25. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I think there are times when TS1 can look almost as good as TSW. Especially some of the recent freeware routes, take the WCML South route I was driving yesterday some of the screenshots looks almost like photo's. If it was able to be made more stable it would be fantastic.

    If they improve it too much it will conflict, at the end of the day both are train simulators. If TSW had the features of TS1 like an editor then they wouldn't need to keep two going, I suspect DTG wanted to finish with TS1 but maybe realised that until TSW matures enough then a lot of simmers won't buy into it. With the recent revelations surrounding TSW2 regarding the editor then that time seems even further away now, so it will be interesting to see what DTG's next move is re TS1
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2020
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  26. BeenTrain

    BeenTrain Member

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    Good point.
    Makes me wonder even more why they did not improve/evolve/rewrote (fill in whatever it takes) TS to become a compatible TSW in the first place.
     
  27. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    A lot of people on console like the fact there's a sim on their platform and it's definitely NOT superfluous for that
     
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  28. malikrthr

    malikrthr Well-Known Member

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    Hopefully with the addition of 64 bit to TS20xx, I hope TS2021 or the next version of TS receives a performance update to better utilize PC hardware. It would also be nice if the editor is TS, worked like the Surveyor in Trainz for creating routes.
     
  29. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I imagine originally they wrote TSW to get away from the 32bit DX9 restrictions of TSx but then got involved in consoles, made a bit of money, saw the backlash when consoles got treated as second rate and then decided that all platforms "are created equal".
    This led them to the path they're on today trying to make all versions work the same, and fouling things up in the process
    It also means that things they could have done on PC to make TSW more like TSx cannot now happen because of the way the consoles and their relevant stores work
    We know for example that scenario sharing won't be built in in TSW2, but that on PC it won't be hard. On Xbox and PS it probably won't be as easy, if at all possible
     
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  30. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    It is interesting that back in 2008 when Rail Simulator was released, you had MSTS, a slightly ageing simulator but with a large community, long routes packed full of stock. There was quite a lot of opposition to RS at the time. Yes it was a little prettier and you go a 3D cab but it was more complex and you didn't get developer tools with it straight away. I can't remember how long after it was when they released them, I actually found them on an old USB drive the other day! So, you couldn't even make scenarios and you didn't get service mode with that. A couple of trips driving the knackered old transit sounding class 166 between Slough and back and I was back in the 2D cabs on MSTS.

    There was a lot of doom and gloom then about the community and the new sim would be too payware heavy.

    Twelve years or so on, there is a large amount of freeware being produced, albeit a lot needing a certain amount of payware. Freeware stock hasn't caught on so much though, there were some early releases of steam engines but little else, certainly from the perspective of UK trains.

    It will be interesting to see where we are in another twelve years time!
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2020
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  31. malikrthr

    malikrthr Well-Known Member

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    I think as long as there are 3rd party developers and people creating work shop scenarios for TS, we will see support for TS for another 12 years. TS has come a long way, It looks like in the latest routes for TS, scenery and visuals have been improved with greater levels of detail. Similarly Trainz operates in a similar fashion to TS and MSTS, it has a huge user and developer base. It originally came out in 2001 and has received updates and service packs throughout the years. Each edition, you have to pay for but none the less, it pretty much maintained the same surveyor tool functionality with improvements and enhancements throughout the years as each version was released (TS2006 SP1 --> TS2010 --> TANE).
     
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  32. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    I had TS2006 then TS2009 and then I had TANE
    A problem I found was some of the older Freeware models I could run in TS2006 and TS2009 would not work in TANE.
    Since then Trainz moved on to Trainz Simulator 12 and now Trainz Simulator 2019
    And yes, each time a new edition came out you had to pay for it
    I doubt if my collection would run in any of the the newer versions - so money wasted

    I then purchased Railworks 3/Train Simulator 2012 and I have not looked back
    Each year a new version with new trains and routes comes out and an update to the core engine
    But unlike Trainz you don't have to buy a new version each year - unless you want the DLC that comes with it.
    An I think DTG have got it right by not making you pay for the yearly upgrade as everyone is on the same software version so problems get easier to fix - Why do you think Microsoft has most people on Windows 10 - because Support is easier.
     
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  33. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    I think Cat was thinking it would conflict with the Sales of TSW
    If TS202x was a good looking as TSW why would people buy it?
     
  34. dunkrez

    dunkrez Well-Known Member

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    TSW is a great gateway to train simulation. Consoles are a relatively low fuss way to experience train simming. And they don't bash the wallet so much.

    TS20xx is a very comprehensive simulation experience with excellent crafting tools and a huge range of assets. TS requires deep pockets for a huge experience, but that's what train model type people are used to. Bachman aren't cheap.

    Apples and oranges.
     
  35. Cat

    Cat Well-Known Member

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    Posted 7 months ago.
     
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  36. malikrthr

    malikrthr Well-Known Member

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    Cool, I have Trainz 2006, Trainz Classics 1&2, Trainz 2009, Trainz 2010 and TANE. I did notice, Trainz 2009 and 10 had a compatibility mode to be compatible with most of the older content. At the start of TANE, I also believe it had compatibility issues with some of the older assets but eventually, a few updates and service packs made the sim to be compatible with most of the older assets. There were some compatibility issues though with content in TC1 & 2, but overall, is a good simulator. I do like how Trainz has thousands of freeware assets, rolling stock, locos and routes from the Trainz download station as well as the 3rd party sites, and building routes is very easy and the tools to build routes run well.

    I also like the Train Simulator series, even though I can't easily build routes like Trainz, I do like how there are scenarios and DLC's that you can get and it is a good learning experience, learning how the different railroads, locos and rolling stock operate. I also like how you don't have to pay for each new edition of Trainz. Most definitely, I remember back in 2015 when there was a few weeks where Microsoft rolled out a free update to Windows 10 for people who had Windows 7. Windows 8/8.1 installed on their PC.

    Train Simulator is very similar to Windows 10. As Windows 10 is more of a service, Train Simulator is also like a service where automatic updates and patches will occur for free.
     
  37. paul.pavlinovich

    paul.pavlinovich Well-Known Member

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    I play both. Oddly I avoided TS all these years playing other sims. Then I got into TSW2 then one day I see this special bundle for TS for next to nothing so I bought it.

    From a simulation perspective - I own just about every train sim from the original Microsoft TS (which still works under w10 but shows its age). For simulation Run8 gets my vote as the most realistic. TSW2 isn't far off, but they pander to quick win people - Run8 will make you pump up the brakes for example before you can drive off. In TSW2 a mile long train is nearly instantly aired up and ready to go. Other little things make a big difference e.g. if you don't set the hand brakes on a grade in Run8 and you uncouple the cars will roll away. In TSW2 and TS they just sit there.

    TSW2's audience is the same audience as Trainz and the other more gamey sims. That said, I enjoy good game play as well as good simulation. TSW2 has got enough that I play it quite a bit.

    TS is a fun game, I enjoy playing it and I while I actually detest its scenario editor I've been building scenarios in it. Its quite a steep learning curve but it is very functional and if you don't like the world you can change it. I don't mind its graphics being dated, although new and shiny would be nice its more about playability for me. The only thing I would like to see is an update to how it uses memory because its heap management isn't brilliant. Put too many trains on the go and it fails with "Out of memory" which could only be heap because its only using about 6gb out of 32 of RAM :).

    I do agree with people that TS and TSW are different audiences, I see a place for both in Dovetail's future and if TS bankrolls TSW for now, so be it. They are employing a lot of people, I think I heard them mention around 100 people on a recent stream and that is serious cash. If train and fish simulators can rake that it in and keep a group of talented people employed more power to them. DTG have said on streams that they have two different development teams and they certainly have been active on both.

    Paul
     
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  38. tommydee

    tommydee Well-Known Member

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    Given the money I've spent on DLC I would happily pay £100 to buy a new improved version of Train Simulator, provided existing DLC was still compatible.
     
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  39. USRailFan

    USRailFan Active Member

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    Turbine Games with only a handful of people managed to upgrade Dungeons & Dragons Online and Lord of The Rings Online - sharing a graphics engine as old as TS2021 if not older - to DX10 and then DX11, without anyone losing any content or having to start over, so it's not impossible
     
  40. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Don't know those games but are there hundreds of DLC produced by dozens of companies or people who no longer exist which cost 100s of pounds to buy?
    Don't forget that at one point TSx was rated as the most expensive game on steam and I doubt people want hundreds of pounds of content wiped because of a core update. People complained enough when the virgin pack was removed!
     
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  41. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    This thread still alive? It will never happen. The end. /thread
     
  42. USRailFan

    USRailFan Active Member

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    Did you even read my post?
     
  43. TimeSlicedDanny

    TimeSlicedDanny Active Member

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    Ah yes, the "it can't possibly happen because I know best" stance. I remember the same comments being made about the idea of moving to 64 bit.

    Maybe TS will be upgraded, maybe it won't, but there's no harm lobbying for it.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2021
  44. inversnecky

    inversnecky Well-Known Member

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    Presumably the issue is TS isn’t optimised for the latest version, obviously it can run under it. But what practical differences would it make?
    I’m no computer guru, and don’t understand why a DirectX upgrade requires a rebuild of TS.
     
  45. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Yes
    What's that got to do with the questions I asked regarding the relevance of it
     
  46. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    The main reason would be that although DX is the base engine TSx has been built on 3rd party extensions from that, and over the years some DLC have used some weird ways of being built so if you port things over you could break the DLC from way back when.
    Not necessarily the biggest issue for some people but there are those that have lots of money invested in the hobby of TSx and don't want to lose something they bought five years ago that gets broken in a core update but that won't be upgraded with the core because the original developer is no longer in existence.
    TSx is a weird beast in the way it works...
     
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  47. inversnecky

    inversnecky Well-Known Member

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    I wonder if there isn’t a suitable person in the community willing to help DTG do this, give a bit of impetus? (Have no idea how long it will take, though!)
     
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  48. inversnecky

    inversnecky Well-Known Member

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    I’ve had a look at TSW on YT videos: too much of a “video game” experience for me, with all the flashy layover graphics.

    Happy to stick with TS!
     
  49. inversnecky

    inversnecky Well-Known Member

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    The only thing is that this would put off the occasional user, and appeal only to the regulars (would it not maybe lose more than it makes: us here will be a minority of a minority).

    I used Office all the time for business and home, so happy to pay the subscription.

    I no longer do as much photography as in the past, so am happy to retain the use of my old Photoshop CS4, which does what I need. I no longer use Ps enough to justify a yearly subscription. The likes of Ps and other subscription software are more often than not paid as a business expense, unlike TS (unless you are R Armstrong, or A Thomson!)
     
  50. inversnecky

    inversnecky Well-Known Member

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    From the looks of it, TSW seems geared more to a younger, ‘gamer’ market, and won’t appeal so much to old fogies like me who find the glitzy razzmatazz bells and whistles a bit too much.
     
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