Speed Limit For Passenger And Freight

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by montes_1234, Jul 23, 2020.

  1. montes_1234

    montes_1234 Well-Known Member

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    I would like to know the speed at which trains are traveling across routes in TSW. Is it dependent only on the speed limit of the sections of the route, or it depends on other factors as well. So for exaple does freight trains in UK routes are allowed to go faster than 60 mph? Also in German routes freight trains maximum speed are constrained by the maximum speed of the slowest wagon they are pulling. The maximum speed for the wagons is not greather than 100-110 kph. Does the AI follows this roules or it just recognizes the speed limit imposed by the route itself?
     
  2. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    I think in general they drive at a few mph below the line speed limit and only obey that rule and the maximum speed of the locomotive. The AI train behaviour may differ on a route, train and even individual service basis. I haven’t specifically tested this on enough services to give a full analysis but I have noticed certain behaviours. They often don’t behave like a real train would. Heavy freight AI in NTP easily make line speed going uphill but driving yourself the full physics are applied and you won’t get up to line speed on a steep gradient. I’ve not seen much evidence of AI trains adhering to differential speed limits or limits imposed by signals, they just go about their merry way at close to full line speed and stop at stations and red signals. Acceleration and deceleration are also different as they work on much simpler physics.

    As an example, on Peninsular Corridor, the player gets a lower speed limit in a freight train but the AI drives at the passenger limit and accelerates at a faster rate than is possible when you drive the same train. Overall I’d say the AI behaviour is adequate but not brilliant.
     
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  3. 7orenz

    7orenz Well-Known Member

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    As a general rule, valid for all trains, the maximum allowed speed is that speed which, in case of danger, allows you to stop the train in relatively confined spaces (see railway blocks and related signs). On the HRR (and RRO) the maximum allowed speed is 160kmh but if you use the PZB 70 you cannot exceed 125. If instead you use the PZB 55 the maximum speed is reduced to 100 kmh (even where the signs tell you that you can go to 160). Add also that the driver must know the railway he is traveling on and know where it is appropriate to go a little slower. Last but not least is the weight of the train you are driving and whether it is on an uphill or downhill stretch. The new adhesion will also play a more marked role with the new TSW2.

    All this already happens in TSW, try for example to drive,on NTP route, a train towed by a double Class 40 with 1500 tons fully loaded. The limit in some sections is 60mph (maybe even 70). But if you go 60mph and meet a yellow and then a red you can be sure that you would never stop your train in such a small space.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2020
  4. montes_1234

    montes_1234 Well-Known Member

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    Yes this is something not right for sure. But I think that its a different topic. So if the train behave differently depending who drives player or AI, than its another kind of irregularity.
     
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  5. montes_1234

    montes_1234 Well-Known Member

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    Yes I am familiar with different speed restrictions which can be imposed by the different PZB mode in which the train is. And does AI drives by PZB rules thats another part of the same question. But my main question is about the AI behaviour. So when AI is driving a freight, does it drive it at speed imposed by the line or it follows PZB speed and max speed of wagons. Because freighter is pulling wagons which max constructed speed is 100-110 kph. So no matter what the route speed limit is it should not exceed that speed that is 110 kph max.
     
  6. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    I saw an AI oil train on NTP going slowly up the hill.
     
  7. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    Not as slow as it would be if a player was driving it. There’s an oil train that has an express passenger service behind it. If you drive the passenger train you will never catch the oil train but if you drive the oil train you can see on the map that the passenger train is right behind you having to stop at red signals (in the later portion of the route). This happens because you can’t reach the same speed as the AI for the same train.

    Back on the exact topic, I have observed German AI trains driving as if PZB is off, so it doesn’t appear that they follow PZB rules. I don’t think the max speed for wagons is implemented at all in TSW so no AI train would know what the max speed to drive at when pulling them was, which tallies with my own observations.
     
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  8. montes_1234

    montes_1234 Well-Known Member

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    The conclusion would be that all trains which are AI controlled are traveling at speeds which are just the same as the line speeds. If anyone have another experience please share it.
     
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  9. montes_1234

    montes_1234 Well-Known Member

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    TSW_Marko_1596129122_00.png On the Peninsula Corridor route there are signs with two speed limit numbers. One faster is for the passengers and the slower one is for freight trains. In Europe there is no such speed signs with different max speeds for the passenger and freight trains. In UK and German routes there are just speed limits for the particular routes and there sections which have to be respected. For the Peninsula Corridor it is just implemented that the freighter that you are driving will have those speed limits which refers to it shown on the HUD. So from the example above freighter will have shown 40 and passenger 79 mph. On European routes there are universal speed limits so no matter what type of train you are driving on the HUD will be displayed same speed limit. I think that this creates problem on those routes, so that no matter what the AI driver drives they will always obey the maximum speed limit which was set by the particular section of the route. So they will not obey the maximum speed limits set neither by the maximum speed limit of the wagons they are pulling nor the maximum speed limit which the freight trains must obey if they are travelling under the particular monitoring system like for example PZB. But on the Peninsula Corridor the AI driver will always drive at slower speeds than the maximum allowed for the passenger trains. So in this regard closest to reality will be the Peninsula Corridor.
     
  10. Mattty May

    Mattty May Guest

    UK routes have speed limits for passenger and freight trains.
     
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  11. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    That doesn’t always happen though. Some freight trains drive at the passenger speed limits. I can’t say for certain that all GP38 hauled trains do but at least some of them do. There is a fun service where the 4am full line empty stock move (which runs on the left hand track) can run parallel to a GP38 hauled freight train (on the correct track) if you wait for about ten minutes before setting off. The freight train runs close to the passenger limits the whole way.

    Also, there are speed limit signs on GWE showing freight and passenger speeds but the game only gives you the passenger speed in the HUD and for AI trains. All Class 66 services on the slow lines are limited to 60mph for the vast majority of the journey (plus of course wagon limits) but you have to work this out for yourself.
     
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  12. 7orenz

    7orenz Well-Known Member

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    On MSB / RRO / HRR Regional and Regional Express trains max speed limit is 160km/h. But this limit is reduced to 125kmh for freight trains and 100kmh for heavy/slow freight trains. This is a sort of european standard speeds mainly related to the technology/structure of the different cars (wheel/axel technology). Intercity and high speed trains (160+ kmh) use a different cars (wheel/axel technology).

    I don't know the right term in English language but in this video it is shown and explained what I mean above. Also the images can explain enough or in part... :D


    And yes, those physics rules are, in general, related at all the trains all over the world (different max speed limits included).
    Usually the TSW HUD show only the max permitted speed in the route and not our train max permitted speed.
    A good reason to disable the HUD and follow exclusively the railway signals (when it is permitted by the game...).
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2020
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  13. montes_1234

    montes_1234 Well-Known Member

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    Yes its true for the human driver but when it comes to the AI driven trains than they don't follow this rules and there you have the immersion braked. Because every train runs at the same maximum speed you would never have for example chasing yelows because of the slower train in front. Then the game would have to simulate re routing of the slower trains to the loops and simmilar.
     
  14. djcwey

    djcwey Well-Known Member

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    I personally find it disappointing that TSW doesn't properly assess driver performance on the basis of adherence to speed limits.
    Whilst for passenger services speeds may vary for Class 1 and Class 2 trains depending upon motive power it is a bit more clear cut with Class 4 and Class 6 freights e.g. on GWE container trains should be limited to 75mph and aggregate trains limited to 60mph. Screenshot_20200731_092510.jpg
     
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  15. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    The newer thameslink runs are 9xxx headcode too so that diagram isn't accurate
     
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  16. praxidike.meng

    praxidike.meng Well-Known Member

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    This is inaccurate. In Slovenia, where I live, the railway system has the following maximum allowed track speed signs:
    RS_-2007-123-06265-OB_P043-0000.gif
    The first sign, namely Slika 39a, has three numbers. The uppermost number relates to trains with tilting technology (currently applies only to IC trains). The middle number applies to light trains (regional passenger trains), and the lower number relates to heavy trains (all kinds of freight trains).
    The second sign, Slika 39b, has two numbers. Similarly, the uppermost relates only to trains with tilting technology, while the lower one applies to light and heavy trains.
    The third sign, Slika 39c, has only one number, which means that the designated speed restriction applies to all trains.
     
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  17. montes_1234

    montes_1234 Well-Known Member

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    Yes thank you for clarification. By Europe I meant the countries that are currently present in TSW so the UK and Germany.
     
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  18. Dave Mel

    Dave Mel Well-Known Member

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    i have always said on this forums that we should be given information of the speeds on slowest wagons and speeds of fastest wagons. ok we get the line speeds in the hud but on GWR we get the lineside signs of speeds of passenger trains and freight trains but i have not seen them anywhere else on the english routes so far. i have only noticed lineside speeds signs for passenger services on the german routes. i play on PS4 but i dont know if its any different for you that play on the PCs
     
  19. Fitz

    Fitz Well-Known Member

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    On the East Coast DLC there is a different line speed limit if you are driving the Class 66 or the 377 EMU between Lewes and Newheaven.
     
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  20. montes_1234

    montes_1234 Well-Known Member

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    Yes thank you for the info. But the main question is, does the AI obeys speed limit for the train that it is driving or it sticks to the maximum permitted speed. So will the AI drive the freight train on that section at the slower speeds than what is maximum allowed for the pessanger trains?
     
  21. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Yes it does, AI will slow down for the permitted line speed for it's class, but what it won't do is drive any slower, so if the class has a limit of 60, or the consist etc, if the line speed says 75, it'll try to do 75
     
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  22. montes_1234

    montes_1234 Well-Known Member

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    Now its clear why it is happening. After yesterday stream it is. So for the AI trains simugraph doesn't apply any of its features. So that is why AI driven trains can go uphill as it is a flat section. They do not have any physics applied.
     
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  23. 7orenz

    7orenz Well-Known Member

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    60 minutes along the HRR (railfan mode)



    AI traffic/speeds/signalling looks realistic on not?
     
  24. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    They do have some physics applied but not the full set. It’s just that the difference between what happens with full physics and with the simple physics is sometimes much different. I wouldn’t be surprised if gradients are one of the things that are ignored by AI trains.
     
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  25. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I thought this was common knowledge? Wouldn't surprise me if they still do the "speed limits only apply to the front loco" trick too...
     
  26. montes_1234

    montes_1234 Well-Known Member

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    So can someone from the developer side comment some more on this question?
     
  27. davidh0501

    davidh0501 Well-Known Member

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    If layers adds memory overheads to existing routes, think of what adding simugraph to ai trains will do.
     
  28. montes_1234

    montes_1234 Well-Known Member

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    That is not the question. Sorry but please read the question and than answer. I never talked about adding simugraph to the AI trains.
     

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