Add-on Suggestion: Cascade Corridor

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Mr_Crazey, Sep 10, 2020.

  1. Mr_Crazey

    Mr_Crazey Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2020
    Messages:
    83
    Likes Received:
    119
    Country: USA
    Region: The Pacific Northwest

    Part 1: AMTRAK Cascades
    The Amtrak Cascades route has been operated by Amtrak since its inception in 1971. Amtrak currently operates 11 trains on the route, which travels from Vancouver, British Columbia, to Eugene, Oregon. Its a 467 mile route, with 18 stops. Most of the route through Washington state hugs the waters of the Puget Sound. Currently no trains operate the entire 467 mile route, it is instead split into five sections. The first section is 142 miles of track from Vancouver BC to Seattle WA, which two trains make round trips on daily. The second section is 316 miles of track from Vancouver BC to Portland Oregon which two trains make round trips on daily. The third section, and the section with the most ridership is the 175 miles from Seattle to Portland, which three trains make round trips on daily. The fourth section, and the section with the lowest ridership is the 108 miles from Portland, OR to Eugene OR which has one train making daily round trips. The final section is 282 miles from Eugene, OR to Seattle, WA which three trains make daily round trips on.

    The section that I believe we should focus on is the first 142 mile section that runs from Vancouver BC to Seattle WA. I have two main reasons for thinking this section of the route would be best for TSW2 the first reason being this is one of Amtraks two international routes, it was actually Amtraks first international route. The second reason I think we should focus on this route is because it's the most scenic section of the route in my opinion. The line follows the Cascade mountain range south through Washington state through rolling farm lands till it goes through Everett, WA where the track meets the water front of the Puget Sound, which it follows south into Seattle. This section of the route has 8 stops, King Street Station in Seattle, Edmonds Station in Edmonds, Everett Station in Everett, Stanwood Station in Stanwood, Skagit Station in Mount Vernon, Fairhaven Station in Bellingham, and Pacific Central Station in Vancouver BC.

    Here is an idea of the views available in the Pugent Sound area of the Pacific Northwest:

    bellevuelakewashington_3.jpg
    Rolling Stock Option 1:

    Locomotive: Siemens Charger SC--44 Diesel Electric passenger locomotive, with 4400hp it's capable of 125mph. Here is a SC-44 in Amtrak Cascades Livery:

    1920px-Amtrak_Cascades_1401_-_Siemens_Charger_engine_at_King_Street_Station,_Seattle,_WA_-_01.jpg

    Train set: Talgo Series 8 passenger cars. The set for Amtrak Cascades consists of one baggage car, two buisness class cars, one lounge car, one cafe car, seven coach class cars, and one power car which doubles as a cab car on the Series 8. Here's a picture of the Talgo Series 8 cab car:

    1920px-Union_Station_(12209479843).jpg
    Rolling stock option 2:

    Locomotive: EMD F59PHI, this is a diesel electric passenger locomotive with 3000hp, that's capable of 110mph. Here's a picture of the F59PHI in Amtrak Cascades livery:

    1920px-20040815_40_Amtrak,_Portland,_OR_(8291912701).jpg

    Train set: Talgo series 6 passenger cars. This is the older version of the series 8 listed above. Its main difference is the fins located on the baggage and power cars that aesthetically streamline the transition between the locomotive and the passenger cars. The series six also does not have a cab in the power car, and thus an unpowered EMD F40PH is used as an unpowered cab car with the talgo series 6 passenger cars. Because of this the series 6 only carries 6 coach class cars instead of 7 like the series 8. Here's a picture of the Talgo Series 6 passenger cars with the F40PH unpowered cab-car in Amtrak Cascades Livery:

    Talgo_Amtrak_Cascades_-_Eugene_-_Bruce_Fingerhood.jpg
    Part Two: Sounder Commuter Train
    Sound Transit has 14 locomotives operating on two lines daily Monday to Friday serving the greater Seattle area. Line 1, referred to as Sounder North, starts at King Street Station in Seattle, and makes stops in Edmonds, Mukilteo, and Everett. The Seattle, Edmonds, and Everett stations are the same stations serviced by Amtrak Cascades. Line 2, refered to as Sounder South, starts at King Street Station in Seattle, and makes stops in Tukwila, Kent, Auburn, Sumner, Puyallup, the Tacoma Dome, South Tacoma, and Lakewood. Sounder North is approximately 30 miles, and Sounder South is approximately 40 miles.
    Rolling Stock:
    Locomotive option 1: EMD F59PHI, this is a diesel electric passenger locomotive, with 3000hp that's capable of 111mph, yes it's the same locomotive used by Amtrak Cascades up till 2018. I'll include pictures of the F59PHI in Sounder livery in the comments.

    Locomotive option 2: Motive Power MP40PH-3C. This is a 4000hp Diesel Electric passenger locomotive capable of the 93mph. It is the newest locomotive in the Sounder fleet. I'll include pictures of the MP40PH-3C in Sounder livery in the comments.

    Trainset: on the North Line Sounder uses 3 passenger cars and a cab car, the passenger cars are the Bombardier BiLevel Coach in Sounder Livery, and the cab car is a newer version of Bombardier BiLevel cab car that we see in the CalTrain MP36PH-3C DLC. I'll include pictures of both the coach, and cab cars in sounders livery in the comments.
    Optional: Part 3: BNSF Freight
    Now I understand that there is some history with DTG and BNSF, something about BNSF will only let DTG use their branding if it's only sold in North America? I'm not sure on the details. But regardless i'm including this section for posterity sake, but its the least important section to me. Almost all the passenger lines in Washington state are shared by BNSF freight. There's lots of intermodal cargo from the ports of Seattle and Tacoma so it would be easy to implement. There's BNSF yards in Seattle, Everett, Auburn, and Tacoma. For rolling stock I would recommend the EMD SD70ACe as its one of BNSFs most common locomotives and probably one of the most requested North American Freight Locomotives in this forum.

    Please everyone give me feedback on this proposed add-on. Would you like to travel the beautiful Pacific Northwest? What are some routes you really want to see in Train Sim World 2?​
     
    • Like Like x 12
  2. Mr_Crazey

    Mr_Crazey Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2020
    Messages:
    83
    Likes Received:
    119
    F59PHI in Sounder livery:
    1920px-Emd_f59phi.jpg

    Motive Power MP40PH-3C in Sounder Livery:
    1920px-Sounder_-923_at_Everett_Station.jpg

    Bombardier BiLevel Coach in Sounder Livery:
    SDRX228.jpg

    Bombardier BiLevel cab car in Sounder Livery:
    1920px-Sounder_Cab_Car_327_(37384615221).jpg
     
    • Like Like x 2
  3. KyleL

    KyleL Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2020
    Messages:
    988
    Likes Received:
    1,005
    Not a bad idea really & I always loved the sound transit livery & the Cascades livery
     
    • Like Like x 3
  4. Luke8899

    Luke8899 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2020
    Messages:
    604
    Likes Received:
    1,697
    Oh hell yes, this I would pay considerably for. I would love a Talgo variant in TSW.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  5. Mr_Crazey

    Mr_Crazey Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2020
    Messages:
    83
    Likes Received:
    119
    The Cascades livery is very cool in my opinion because it's so different from Amtraks "typical" livery color schemes. Plus the Sounder livery is just dang cool.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  6. jedi247

    jedi247 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2018
    Messages:
    1,195
    Likes Received:
    1,525
    This would be a great addon. I'd love a BNSF SD70ACe, as well as a GP60 or Genset or an ET44C4 instead of the SD70ACe. A C44-9W could be great, too.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  7. Mr_Crazey

    Mr_Crazey Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2020
    Messages:
    83
    Likes Received:
    119
    Do you know the details on DTGs dealings with BNSF? I've read in a few threads that BNSF has stated they will only allow their brand imagery to be used in North America, but I don't know the source of this claim.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. Blacknred81

    Blacknred81 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2019
    Messages:
    5,567
    Likes Received:
    11,830
    Pretty much, anything thats sold outside of the US has to have the markings removed. Because of this Dovetail haven't made any BNSF content for Train Simulator, and I don't see them doing it anytime soon. So unless we see a 3rd Party developer come in (Like we've seen with the Chicago Racetrack, Raton Pass, or Montana Hi-Line on TS) I don't see any official BNSF content coming to TSW2.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. Mr_Crazey

    Mr_Crazey Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2020
    Messages:
    83
    Likes Received:
    119
    3rd party like Rivet games or Skyhook games? Out of curiosity why would the BNSF licensing restriction exist for DTG but not a 3rd party developer?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. Blacknred81

    Blacknred81 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2019
    Messages:
    5,567
    Likes Received:
    11,830
    No the license restrictions are still in place, but Dovetail havent made any BNSF content since it came into play.

    The more interesting question is why it effects Dovetail and not Trainz.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. Mr_Crazey

    Mr_Crazey Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2020
    Messages:
    83
    Likes Received:
    119
    Ok, but now you've contradicted yourself. You said:
    So I asked:
    And now your stating:
    So a 3rd party developer couldn't develop a BNSF add-on for TSW2 under the current licensing agreement? And again this seems to be common knowledge on the forum, but I still don't know the source of the claim. Was it discussed in a live stream? A forum post? A dovetail live article? Don't take this as an attack or anything there's just a lot of contradicting third party accounts of information on the forum and i'd like to get my information directly from the source if possible.

    And i'm not sure why Trainz would have a different licensing agreement than TSW2 but it could be down to different negotiations, different time periods, any number of things.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  12. Blacknred81

    Blacknred81 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2019
    Messages:
    5,567
    Likes Received:
    11,830
    I think I over complicated it...

    Not sure when the actual agreement went into place, but since then, any BNSF related content must be sold unbranded outside the US.

    -Dovetails last BNSF related release was July 2014, a Great Northern Marketplace Reskin, 6 years ago.

    -Since then, they haven't developed anything related to the licensing weather a locomotive or a route.....

    However they have published 3 routes from 3rd party developers that satisfy the current BNSF agreement (Logos in the US, but not the rest of the world)
    -Chicago Racetrack (Barnz, 2015)
    -Raton Pass (Milepost, 2018)
    -Montana Hi Line (Great Northerner, 2019)

    For whatever reason, Dovetail themselves wont develop a BNSF related route at all, even though they could under the current agreement, and I dont see them doing one anytime soon, which is why it is most likely to see a 3rd party developer do BNSF content rather than Dovetail themselves.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  13. Mr_Crazey

    Mr_Crazey Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2020
    Messages:
    83
    Likes Received:
    119
    Ahh okay that's much more clear. And those were all content add ons for Train Sim yeah? I wonder if that's something that DTG would even consider for TSW considering I don't think there's any unbranded content in TSW2020 or TSW2 at this point. Whereas i'm aware of a few pieces of unbranded content in Train Sim
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. MetrolinkF125#916

    MetrolinkF125#916 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2019
    Messages:
    1,187
    Likes Received:
    1,813
    Long entry warning with some light criticism, read with caution: In my opinion, I’m pretty sure, considering the satisfactory length of routes based on player’s opinions, that it would take...


    WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYY...

    ...too long to create a BNSF route for TSW 2. The route would have to be at least 50 miles long, preferably 70, and be able to support 100+ car freight trains. To do this, under the current licensing agreement, they would have to create: one (1) branded BNSF route, which would already take very long in terms of research trips, photography, locomotive mapping and sound recording, then planning, money spent on the research trip and wages, actual development, then marketing; more money spent, and finally release. So, in this case only US customers exclusively get the BNSF route as it would be the first created, with the logo, only for sale in the US. Then, they would have to create: one (1) unbranded route, which they could just copy and paste it as a new route, but that’ll still take months to complete as they have to copy every. Single. Asset. Of. The. Route. Including the smallest details u don’t even notice in a typical TSW route. Then market it exclusively for the video game markets for the rest of the world that is not the US, finally, release it.

    Or, they could go plan B, take like 3 years to complete the route, both the branded and unbranded versions, and possibly delay other projects including the SouthEastern High speed, Dash 8-40CW, Cane Creek, Clinchfield Railroad, LGV Mediterrane, and so on, and possibly even delay the release of the successor of TSW 2, the thought of TSW 3. Then release the route as part of TSW 2. I’ll bet people wouldn’t be satisfied with that huh? Another thing to consider is the cost of it, would people like to pay $100 (or £94.99) for a 70 mile route that took years to complete, or one market getting it first than the other? Even if it just received a $10 (or about £4.99 increase), like the TS version, some ppl would like for both the US and non-US players to get them at the same time, or else it wouldn’t be fair. But it’s all up to DTG to decide, heck, maybe their working on one right now and we don’t even know it! Not stated in the roadmap and to be announced as a surprise, or heck, maybe an exclusive route (part of the deluxe edition) for TSW 4.:)
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2020
    • Like Like x 2
  15. MetrolinkF125#916

    MetrolinkF125#916 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2019
    Messages:
    1,187
    Likes Received:
    1,813
    I would also love this route in TSW! But I would recommend DTG to add the P42s instead of the F59s (they were retired by Amtrak anyways) since those are still in use and we haven’t seen those in TSW, and it’s a highly requested loco.:)
     
  16. Mr_Crazey

    Mr_Crazey Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2020
    Messages:
    83
    Likes Received:
    119

    You're correct, Amtrak retired the F59 from its Cascade route in 2018. The SC-44 is currently the primary loco Amtrak uses on the cascade corridor. (Besides F40 unpowered cab cars) I included the F59 as an option because it was the primary locomotive on this route prior to the SC-44, but if i'm being honest i'd rather have the SC-44.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. Mich

    Mich Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2020
    Messages:
    1,036
    Likes Received:
    1,342
    Is there any big reasons they couldn't just set the route (or even just the timetable) in its pre-2018 state? I can't imagine it's changed a ton in that time.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. Mr_Crazey

    Mr_Crazey Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2020
    Messages:
    83
    Likes Received:
    119
    I don't see any reason why not. If they wanted to be historically accurate pre-2018 the F59 was the primary locomotive used on Amtrak Cascades, from 2018-to present the Siemens Charger SC-44 is the primary locomotive. They started the process of changing out the Talgo Series 6 train set with the Talgo Series 8 train set in 2014 i believe? And they still haven't fully completed the transition with some trains still pulling Talgo Series 6 sets today. So the only difference would be the locomotive used.

    Technically there was a section of track used prior to 2017 called the point defiance bypass but it hasn't been used since 2017 due to two derailments on that section of track in 2017. But that section of track is farther south than the route i've suggested anyways.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  19. Mr_Crazey

    Mr_Crazey Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2020
    Messages:
    83
    Likes Received:
    119
    1. A great view of the Talgo series 8 cab car and train set. Amtrak Cascades is the only Route in the US that uses a Talgo train set.

    M18-073_2cm3932-1024x681.jpg

    2. An Amtrak Cascades F59PHI pulling a Talgo series 6 train set heads south from Bellingham WA. This picture is a fantastic representation of the stunning views available on this corridor.
    showimage (1).jpeg
    3. An Amtrak Cascades in Seattle Washingtons King Street Station. A beautiful train station utilized by both trains in my add-on proposal.
    seattleamtrak.jpg
     
    • Like Like x 3
  20. MetrolinkF125#916

    MetrolinkF125#916 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2019
    Messages:
    1,187
    Likes Received:
    1,813
    Nice pics, and they convince me even more to buy the route if it comes out, and I really hope it does come out!
     
    • Like Like x 1
  21. CrazyDash

    CrazyDash Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2020
    Messages:
    492
    Likes Received:
    744
    This looks like an awesome route! I would love driving Amtrak and sounder. The only bummer is the longest current TSW2 route is the upcoming TGV line which is only 50 miles. Dovetail said they are capable of making far longer routes. But the amount of time it would take to make them would be 3 times the amount for a 40 mile route. This also means if more work is put into it, it would cost more. I wouldn’t mind laying more for a longer route though. I love the suggestion though.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  22. Mr_Crazey

    Mr_Crazey Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2020
    Messages:
    83
    Likes Received:
    119
    Yeah I was worried about the route length too. I'm not sure if the tracks following the ocean for large parts of the route would make it more or less work. But Seattle and Vancouver are both big cities that deserve detail. Maybe you could just do Seattle to Everett. But I don't think it would be as interesting.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2020
    • Like Like x 1
  23. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2016
    Messages:
    3,711
    Likes Received:
    4,323
    Trainz doesn't bother with licensing...
     
    • Like Like x 1
  24. Mr_Crazey

    Mr_Crazey Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2020
    Messages:
    83
    Likes Received:
    119
    Now that TSW3 is a couple of days from releasing and includes much longer routes out of the box than TSW2 did, I would like to bump this route suggestion again. I feel like this particular route could satisfy both U.S Passenger and Freight fans (BNSF operates regular Intermodal, Coal, and Oil Trains along this route), bring players to a new and extremely scenic part of the U.S, and introduce new locomotives and rolling stock to TSW.
     
  25. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2021
    Messages:
    9,084
    Likes Received:
    5,602
    Excellent Idea and for Cascade Corridor Vancouver, BC to Seattle, WA if made surpasses Kassel Wurzburg by 27 mi 44km but is tied to a TSC route also requested for TSW2 & 3 Strasbourg Mannheim Railway due to both being 142 mi. Cajon Pass layers ET44C4 Cascade corridor gives SD70ACET4 to cajon pass
     
    • Like Like x 2
  26. Mr_Crazey

    Mr_Crazey Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2020
    Messages:
    83
    Likes Received:
    119
    I didn't even think of layering with Cajon Pass but that's a great bonus!
     
  27. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2021
    Messages:
    9,084
    Likes Received:
    5,602
    that's a feature of up routes cane creek Sherman hill SFJ and clinchfield with sand patch grade using SD40.
     

Share This Page