This Is Why The Community Is Upset

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by londonmidland, Oct 6, 2020.

  1. ZeenozPlays

    ZeenozPlays Well-Known Member

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    Exactly.
    When you have a game named "Train SIM World" to expect the game to accurately simulate whatever route is being recreated in the game. DTG hasn't delivered on this. Yes, the real world isn't perfect but the real world doesn't magically cut out track noise, or have the train clip through walls. We want a quality product, by not saying anything about these bugs we are unable to get said quality product because these issues won't get fixed. I don't think people are overreacting about the bugs. I think these threads are good for the community, it's a place where all of us can talk about how the bugs in the game ruin the experience and how DTG can do better. I believe it's totally justified and needed.

    Some people come into these threads just to hate on DTG and the game, and that's not productive. But, I think the overwhelming majority of people on these threads are just trying to share their opinion about how the game currently is, and how they feel about the quality of the product.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2020
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  2. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    That wouldn’t be a bad idea, if it was likely to be constructive, and not just an opportunity to be angry towards them. It has the potential to just get personal and that wouldn’t help anyone.

    If there is an opportunity for them to do a stream and explain what they have put or are putting in place to improve things then that might be helpful but ultimately the results we see in the product are the only way most of us will be happier. I’d like to see more streams about the whole development process from top to bottom and I suppose that would include the management too.
     
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  3. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I am sure on reading that his resignation is on its way to the board as we speak. You should offer to take over.
     
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  4. 2martens

    2martens Well-Known Member

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    Corona is a difficult time for all companies, especially one in a niche area. Working longer on existing features without new revenue does not work. You can combine both (see Paradox games for grand strategy titles) by working on one game for years and adding new features, fixing bugs and releasing DLC to pay for all this.

    The relevant aspect here is balance and the problem seems to be that DTG has a reputation of not returning to bugs. Ideally, they would have three teams working on TSW 2: (1) a larger preservation crew who can work on their own and fix all kinds of bugs in content (aka scenarios, minor scenery edits), (2) a dedicated core engine and tools team that develops the public and internal (dev) tools (scenery planner, livery designer, internal tools) as well as simulation features, and (3) a team working on new content (routes, locos). The result of the third team would have to pay for the work of all three teams.

    In such a setup, they could work on three type of things at once without being in conflict with priorities. Bugs would get fixed, new features developed, older routes/locos would get new features for free, and awesome new routes and locos can be developed.

    Right now, however, they seem to have only one team working on the game with a small second team starting out now. But they will only be able to do some minor improvements that don't require serious programming/artist/whatever time.

    To improve reputation, DTG could pledge that they won't release new (non-preserved) TSW2 locos/routes until they have released one major patch (entire team works on it for some time) which addresses many of the problems mentioned in the forums.
     
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  5. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    I'm sure MP and PJ are having a right old chuckle over this thread.:D
     
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  6. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    It would improve transparency and I want this game to succeed but they can't be making the same decisions that are making people upset in the first place. Maybe if higher ups can do some explaining that would be good
     
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  7. Jack O'Track

    Jack O'Track Active Member

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    That's called marketing these days; i just decided NOT to but TSW2. Also because CSX doesn't work, and that's IMO a ripoff scheme ..
     
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  8. Class395

    Class395 Active Member

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    What do you mean it doesn't work? I have few hundred miles clocked in already.
     
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  9. sequencer2k16

    sequencer2k16 Well-Known Member

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    CSX works very well, i already finished the journey and half of the other sevices.. just don't save and load ;)
     

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  10. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    If you mean SPG, it has some challenges but it works just fine. I've finished all but one scenario and a bunch of other services.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2020
  11. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    You can't possibly have done if it doesn't work! Have you not seen the hoards of threads stating it doesn't work, no neither have I?
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2020
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  12. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Some people have had problems with Sand Patch Grade on console. I don't even play the route on my console but on my pc because it crashes when I get towards cumberland yard. But hey dovetail doesn't test their DLCs so I'm not suprised that this is happening. At least I can use it on my pc
     
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  13. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    Yes they do.
     
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  14. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I wonder why dtg doesn't properly test then re-test dlc's instead of just releasing buggy routes
     
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  15. mattdsoares

    mattdsoares Well-Known Member

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    They do. They have a QA team that goes through this stuff. Whether or not the powers that be decide to do something about the problems brought up by QA is another story. As we're seeing with TS2021 and the WCML South route, the problem isn't that there is no QA, it's that the beancounters at DTG don't always listen to QA and seem to have a "release it and fix it later" mentality.
     
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  16. Rudolf

    Rudolf Well-Known Member

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    It works fine for me. There are some issues with scenarios, which will be fixed and the documentation to set up multiple units is not so good, bet we figured out how to do it. So it works and Sandpatch is still the best TSW route.
     
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  17. 2martens

    2martens Well-Known Member

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    Adam said in one of the streams that it does work when released. But they do not have all possible combinations of PCs and consoles. Their QA team is supposedly 25 people and the largest team in the company. Plus, there are 100+ beta testers for TSW2. It is possible that things work internally but go bust once hammered with thousands of players doing thousands of 'stupid' unforeseen things.

    Bug reports are then analyzed and prioritized. Crashes, not being able to finish scenarios/timetable, achievements not working are game stoppers. Everything else has a lower priority so long as the first category is still prevalent.
     
  18. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    They might have a large QA team, but a number of unacceptable bugs escape the development process. You're quite right that some bugs are impossible to identify as a result of various PCs etc, but there's some stuff that ten minutes of testing on any platform would have identified (including impossible to complete tutorials, scenarios and services).

    There's no point having a large QA team if the bugs aren't actually resolved by the development team.
     
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  19. Mattty May

    Mattty May Guest

    Just an admission that we’ve screwed some things up. We’re sorry. Bare with us. But they don’t seem sorry. For so many of the community to be unhappy should be a concern, but it’s a bit like Ostriches with theirs heads in the sand.
     
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  20. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    100 beta testers, what a joke. Of course you may not be able to catch every bug in the game, but the fact that there are so many clear bugs at the end of the development of a route shows either A, the QA team are not doing their job, or B the QA team isn't given enough time to do their job. I would lean towards both. The higher ups need to give the QA and developers more time to make sure that things are working properly instead of rushing things out because it's clear profit more of the goal then quality
     
  21. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    Probably due the the higher ups not allowing enough time for the QA and development teams to properly finish their work.

    QA: We’ve still got x, y & z bugs to fix
    Management: We don’t care. The route needs to be released now
    Community: ...
     
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  22. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I found it baffling and funny that they have 100 beta testers but they clearly can't do their job
     
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  23. LT586

    LT586 Well-Known Member

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    Here's the 50p question:

    Why, is there such a rush behind the preserved collection and any DLC for that matter, who are you rushing to compete with when DTG pretty much dominate the market, I genuinely want to know? What would of been better is focus on new content and we keep TSW2020 to play what already was alright.

    All this disappointment aside it is really nice to see this genre still going since the MSTS days and prior, but please calm down the rushed attitude. Someone needs to sit down with the higher ups and explain the EULA to them
     
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  24. BR125

    BR125 Well-Known Member

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    people losing interest in a shallow product without a new shiny route to play every 2 months would be my guess
     
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  25. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I wish they took there time with new routes and preserved collection so nobody would complain. DTG did that to themselves
     
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  26. Stockton Rails

    Stockton Rails Well-Known Member

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    Amen to this, brother... nicely said. I suspect there’s a real push going on at DTG to endlessly crank out product without the QA or beta tester groups having enough time to test all of it properly. And until that mindset changes, little will probably change quality-wise with any future products they roll out.
     
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  27. eire007

    eire007 Active Member

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    I disagree. Nowadays game studios are cutting corners and being lazy because they know they can update the game over time instead of taking the time to make sure it’s all 100%.
    Just one example is the audio is rubbish now on preserved and I would have preferred they not release till it’s all done. If I want to play the preserved i will play the originals.
    The studio should not have promised a better experience if they could not deliver.
    We can’t even get the Xbox fix working for games downloading if you already own them.
    TSW was great but they are killing the golden goose with all these bugs.
    They say they have testers. But they must be sleeping on the job.
    But as I said. It’s lazy now as they can release a game full of bugs and it’s acceptable cause they can release a fix later on down the track.
    That doesn’t sit right with me.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2020
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  28. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    They may as well get rid of their QA Team since they ain't doing their job
     
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  29. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    It's not the fault of the QA team. Stop blaming them.
     
  30. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    Correction: We don't know if it's the fault of the QA team, however somewhere in the process issues slip through. This could be either the QA team or the Devs. No-one other than a DTG employee can tell us which...
     
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  31. KyleL

    KyleL Well-Known Member

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    Well we obviously like DTG for making a train sim but the thing we really hate is when obvious bugs aren't fixed during the Q&A stage. & we do appreciate Adam's team because it's important to make sure the preserved collection is "Bug Free" & getting the new features like LZB on some of the German trains that are preserved

    But enough of me enjoy this meme template I made :D (Which I know isn't funny) 4i2bcs (1).jpg
     
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  32. garethjohn1379

    garethjohn1379 New Member

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    It appears that DTG are following SI Games(Football Manager) in that they release games by a date every year and rely on the early purchasers to identify the issues, which then creates backlogs as they need to then sift through and identify genuine issues and those that are seen by players and possibly don't exist . The problem is that they both charge full price for a game thats not finished, this market is dwindling as more and more consumers are waiting longer to purchase the latest edition so that they get as much of a complete game as possible and often at a discounted price. I never buy FM in November but wait until the Spring when they release the final update, by which time its then six months until the next edition.
    SI & DTG are both releasing annual editions. SI's a bit more understandable as it wants an updated version to represent the new Football seasons, What they both appear to lack is enough resources in the development teams to achieve a satisfactory game at release.
    In DTG's case they don't need to unless they seriously do consider an annual pre-christmas TS edition worthwhile at the expense of the quality of both TSW and TS formats. Both are creators of niche games. I know neither have the resources or community that the likes of EA Sports have but perhaps DTG need to manage its resources better. TSW releases should only happen once the current edition is as good as can be and should not be compromised by an annual release of Train Simulator.

    I got bitten by TSW2 by buying it at release and found it less enjoyable than TSW2020. I got exited by WCML South due to using the route on a regular basis it is an utter shambles still and because of TSW looks utter shttt.
     
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  33. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    My mistake, the higher ups at dtg need to be fired and replaced since they're not letting them do their job
     
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  34. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    That meme shows a good point
     
  35. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I would also rather wait for dtg to release a good quality product instead of releasing a half baked buggy product
     
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  36. mattdsoares

    mattdsoares Well-Known Member

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    Dominating the market isn't really what matters here when the market is sooo small for train sims. If DTG want to grow they need to continue to reach new customers, and not just keep farming the same small TS and dedicated train simmer base that they've built. TSW on consoles does that. If they let any momentum they have with new players on console slip, they could lose them, so they need to keep up excitement and keep pushing out content to keep what they hope to be a new player base growing and interested.

    It's a lot like Microsoft Flight Simulator right now. Yes, they want the game to appeal to the dedicated flight simmer base and capture those people, but the grand plan is to create a whole new group of people who previously weren't into flight sims, so they need to keep momentum going to keep those people engaged and turn them.
     
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  37. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    It's a good business decision to try to reach new audiences, but rushing out buggy products is not a good idea because it may drive new people away from the game
     
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  38. mattdsoares

    mattdsoares Well-Known Member

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    Indeed. But old habits die hard. LOL.
     
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  39. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I wish dtg would change their habits
     
  40. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    DTG can try to drive us away, but where would we go?
    I haven't found another train simulator I enjoy as much as I enjoy TS/TSW.

    I suspect DTG knows well enough that they have little competition, and their product sells good enough even with its flaws.
     
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  41. byeo

    byeo Well-Known Member

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    Exactly, why push yourself to do better when there's no-one else to push you.
     
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  42. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    The recent policy of releasing stuff and fixing it later, does in my opinion seem flawed.

    However, if no one (or what they may class as an acceptable amount) complain then they probably won't waste much time on fixes. Therefore saving a boatload of time, effort and money making sure it was perfect in the first place.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2020
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  43. Coppo

    Coppo Well-Known Member

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    The point to be remembered is that routes will be built, or upgraded, based upon a budget. That budget is based upon the anticipated number of sales of the product, and the return on the investment made. QA and Dev's may note that there are errors and bugs in a product, but if the budget is running out, they do not get fixed.
    The objective will be to generate income, as that pays the company's bills. Upgrading earlier routes for TSW2 is a cost, with the hope that there might be some extra sales to compensate, They will not be making money on existing sales.
    As for waiting until everything is perfect before release - that's not going to happen. There will be a limited amount of resource allocated to a product for it to be sold at the market price. The more resource it consumes, the less profit it makes. Of course, you could increase the sale price, but there would be a risk of a reduced volume of sales. It is a balancing act...
    So, if you have a gripe, I'd suggest it is with the accountants, not the QA/ Dev teams...
     
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  44. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Has left the building Staff Member

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    Okay, there's a lot of speculation in this thread so let's kill some of it off with a few facts.

    Preserved Collection
    The Preservation team, headed up by Adam will have 6 people in it when it is fully staffed. At present this team is working alongside the core game team to bring over the Preserved Collection as quickly as possible. Why quickly? Because until this is done, major new development is on hold. New routes and locos can continue to be made, as is evident on the roadmap, but when it comes to projects like standardising passenger information screens, improving the efficiency of scenery or expanding the functionality of the game, these are being slowed down because of Preserved Collection.

    How is it possible that new problems emerge in Preserved Collection, or that the sound becomes worse in the transition? Because the work of transferring these add-ons is far from straight-forward. The original intention was that all legacy add-ons were available with the game launch. Obviously this did not happen. We've already given Preserved Collection extra months to be transferred, and that work will continue for some time to come. While that's happening, we can't tackle some of the bigger areas of focus. Areas that will improve the overall quality of Train Sim World.

    So yes, Preserved Collection is not going as smoothly as we, or you want. That's before you get to the difficulties that have come up with each individual release in ensuring that everyone who should have access, does.

    Once the entire collection has been transferred Adam's team will be able to significantly ramp up the amount of work done on getting all released routes and locos into improved shape. The feedback you give sends us the right signals for where we should prioritise our attention in this process.

    This is, at least in part, why we're tolerating some of the preserved releases being as they are. We want to move forward with the game as a whole, and we have a team in place who can make improvements quickly - but only once the initial job is done.

    QA, the beta team and testing
    The QA and beta teams are very thorough in their testing. They submit reports on everything they find, which won't ever be exhaustive but certainly cover the majority of areas that fall short of expected. The development team then tackle reported issues on a case by case basis. When this process is complete, stakeholders in each area of the company give a go/no-go for release, and herein is where we are currently reviewing the process. It is clear that this signoff process is allowing more inconsistency than it has historically - and let's be honest here, even historically we didn't have the greatest reputation for "flawless" releases. This process is under review to hopefully ensure that fewer problems with add-ons exist at launch.

    To say that the QA or beta team isn't doing their job is unfair. The issue of whether our releases deliver what players expect is an issue with the signoff process, not the testing.

    Roadmap
    I've seen a few comments suggesting dissatisfaction that you hear "if it's not on the roadmap, it's not being worked on" regularly. It's a pretty blunt approach, but we are trying to ensure that the reality of what we're working on is plain to see. It's still very much bogged down with transferring Preserved Collection at present, but it will become more interesting once this backlog of work is complete. We have a significant list we want to get through, and every piece of feedback you give helps us to identify what's most important, or will have the greatest positive impact for the most players.

    As we've stated before, and this is why we point to the roadmap in the first place, this wishlist of updates won't be made public for several reasons. The first is that while there will undoubtedly be repetition of feedback we can monitor the frequency that items are reported and compile a broad picture of each issue. Publicly listing the item will affect the nature of that feedback, giving a distorted view of the reality. The second reason is that in doing so we give the indication that every item on the list will be addressed - which it won't - or it might, but it may be 5 years from now before it's given any development time. We cannot, with any accuracy make any guarantees beyond what we're already working on and committing to via the roadmap.

    General
    "This is why the community is upset" is straightforward to pin down. There are 3 forces at work in affecting the mood of players - what is wanted, what is expected and what is delivered.
    • Wants are idealistic, in a perfect world, type items that most players accept may or may not happen.
    • Expectations are better grounded in reality and range quite widely from player to player. This is why you see some players who are satisfied or happy with the game while others seem to be furious. Expectations are subjective as they head toward the extremes. That said...
    • The greater the gulf between the expectations of players and what is then delivered the worse the response will be. By the same measure, if a delivery not only achieves expectations but also comes closer to wants the greater the impact.
    There is a practical limit to what can be achieved because everything we do has a maximum time limit on development. There will always be problems, but we're working toward making them less impactful or, if they end up being more of a problem, resolved quickly after release. We're not there yet, and this will take time to improve.

    Ultimately it falls to the individual player to decide whether a failure to meet expectations is a deal-breaker or not. Obviously we want to make as many people as happy with our games as possible but it may be that for some, our best is not good enough. That is why we continue to push to improve what we do and how we do it, and lately it might look like we're moving backwards rather than forwards, and this is where your feedback is critical. If we get this right and earn some faith that we're going in the right direction, great, but we have to demonstrate this.

    Finally, my inevitable caution about tone toward other commenters. Please remember that there are others who feel differently to you and that does not make them wrong. Neither will you convince someone they're wrong on the internet. A good debate has a lot of value, as this thread has done, but it loses all impact if it devolves into name-calling.
     
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  45. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    Quite a comprehensive reply, thanks. One question. You say:
    How many are actually on the team at this present time?

    Surely that is more relevant than how many people will be on the team. The team could be full by tomorrow or it could never be full.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2020
  46. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Has left the building Staff Member

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    Pretty certain it's still 3 on the team at present, but obviously they're supplemented by the core team while still working on initial Preserved Collection releases. If I remember (or if someone nudges me) I'll ask Adam directly on tomorrow's stream.
     
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  47. mike370

    mike370 Active Member

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    Which is understandable to a point. But regardless of whether it's a new TSW2 or a TS2021 (DLC) addon release, if the workmanship is so poor that the developer ends up with 30-50+ mostly very negative reviews on the Steam store, within the first 24-48 hours of release - well surely that leads to dramatically decreased future sales of said creation. The developer might patch it up (satisfactorily or maybe not) in the coming months, but likely the damage is already done. Potential buyers (rightly or wrongly - because the final state of the product often an unknown to them) won't risk it, even if it was an item that held real interest for them i.e. they were pretty likely to buy it in the near future but now won't; the full sale opportunity has been effectively lost. They might chose to pick up such items discounted by 50-75% later in a sale, but effectively up to 3/4 of the potential sale value has forever gone. For more high profile, long-anticipated routes & locos, for signicant numbers of players these would otherwise be an instant buy at full sales price.

    I'd therefore politely suggest that such a release strategy (launch of product with known major problems) is a dangerous one, & probably completely self defeating in terms of final total sales. Then there's the small matter, that it also further needlessly damages a developer's reputation. Which given (at times) an already shaky history, is probably not advisable. In any relationship it takes a long time to build up trust, but it can be very quickly destroyed. Just my own take. Though I suspect I'm far from alone with such observations.
     
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  48. Mattty May

    Mattty May Guest

    Hi Sam,
    Thanks for taking the time to write this post. It helps to give a much better understanding of what is happening behind the scenes. It is impossible to keep everyone happy, but knowing some of the steps being taken to address issues is definitely a good thing.
     
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  49. Mattty May

    Mattty May Guest

    This is an important point. How late is too late is anyone’s guess. If you kick a dog once, it might come back to you. But if you keep kicking the dog, the likelihood is it’ll never come back.
     
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  50. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Has left the building Staff Member

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    You're absolutely right. It is not a policy to release anything that is not enjoyable, whether preserved or not, hence us re-examining the release process.
     
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