This Is Why The Community Is Upset

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by londonmidland, Oct 6, 2020.

  1. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Has left the building Staff Member

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    I love editors.
    Love modders even more.

    Seriously. These people extend games from a love of doing so, and better as a result. I personally use mods all the time and have created my own mods in the past. For those unsure - mod-makers are what make PC gaming great. Personally, I'd love it if TSW supported modding, yet it doesn't.

    That quote, which is accurate, comes out of a conversation where a modder was upset because they'd made a mod for a game that did not support modding. They knew it didn't support modding, but did it anyway. Despite knowing that what they were making would not be usable, by anyone, made it anyway, then got upset because it was not usable by anyone.

    Modders are great but in this case I have to question why anyone would suggest that the individual involved wasn't maybe wasting their time and knowing they were doing so.

    Yes, I'm blunt in my language, perhaps being a little unsympathetic, but if I run at a brick wall I can hardly complain or act indignant when it stops my progress abruptly.

    (edit for legibility with no change in meaning - sounded like it'd been written by a poorly coded AI previously)
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2020
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  2. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    Taking things way out of context doesn't make for a good argument.

    I kinda agree with DTG Protagonist , making a mod is pretty pointless if other people can't use it. Unless the modder only made the mod for himself, but I suspect most modders in communities like to share and get satisfaction out of seeing other people enjoy their mod too. (Which is why I'd really love to see a workshop-alike system for TSW scenarios and liveries, but that's another discussion).

    And I know people are blaming consoles for the lack of mod support and sharing options for PC players, but that isn't fair. There's some technical differences in the platforms, and obviously it would be best if any community created content, in any form or whatever, could be enjoyed by everyone no matter their gaming platform. And I really hope the tech guys will once find a good workaround to make this possible. I can't imagine DTG not having a similar wish.

    However, I can't blame DTG for not spending too much resources in making any kind of content sharing system or mod support system if only a portion of their playerbase can use it. Those resources would probably be better spent on something which benefits the whole playerbase.
     
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  3. Mattty May

    Mattty May Guest

    I think I’d be cool if PC users got this feature and console players didn’t. I mean it might be nice to have on console, but seeing my successes with the livery editor, it’s probably not something I would use and would care not if other players had it.
     
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  4. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    They've previously stated that livery sharing isn't currently planed as a result of the potential copyright issues, alongside the risks of someone making their designs rather inappropriate.

    The fact they don't even allow custom liveries in the screenshot competition shows the hard line they're taking.

    Consoles are definitely not to blame for the lack of livery sharing, and anyone that believes so is misinformed.

    A sharing system for all three platforms is needed when it comes to scenarios. Other games can implement it, so it's not exactly a brand new feature to the gaming world. If DTG wanted to do it, they would. Once again, this isn't a limitation of consoles, this is a limitation of DTGs willingness to add new features.
     
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  5. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Has left the building Staff Member

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    It's a legal limitation, not a willingness limitation.
     
  6. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    Makes me curious, why would the sharing of user created liveries be a legal limitation for DTG, while the workshop of Euro Truck Simulator 2 and American Truck Simulator is full of unlicenced trademarks and brands. How did SCS Software overcome this legal limitation and why can't DTG do the same?
     
  7. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    Given that part of my post is in relation to scenarios, please can you tell me what legal limitation that relates to?
     
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  8. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Has left the building Staff Member

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    It is precisely because ETS/ATS license the trucks (Volvo/MAN etc) rather than a company (UPS, Stobart) that they're able to work with fewer restraints. Because we work with the rail companies to create authenticity we are obliged to protect the use of their branding and liveries. Were we to facilitate sharing the first liveries we'd see would be from companies we almost certainly have tried to work with but have yet to reach an agreement, or with those where we've been contractually obliged to remove them - Virgin, for example.

    Had we worked with rolling stock manufacturers rather than operators we'd been in a similar position to Truck Sim, but we wouldn't be able to offer add-ons with authentic liveries.

    Any one of ETS' unlicensed liveries could be removed from the Workshop at any point if the company were to pursue it, but they're more likely than not to be fine with their recreation in game.

    As far as sharing scenarios is concerned, that functionality is being discussed.
     
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  9. BR125

    BR125 Well-Known Member

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    Although we are still sharing liveries, you havent stopped it. We are sharing liveries, sound patches, texture upgrades, scenarios etc - whats the point in trying to stop something you cant?

    for example right now I have real London Underground posters on the walls, a real please mind the gap LU announcement on door opening, I have a BR green and blue Class 20 (which sounds still dont work properly thanks DTG), a Abellio Talent 2, a sound 'fix' for the tube stock and a patch to make the front cab door on the tube work, 5 scenarios not created by me etc etc etc - so you arent really stopping us, you're just making it annoying.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2020
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  10. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    I think from a legal point of view, they have to show that they aren't actively assisting with anything that will breach any licensing agreement they have.
     
  11. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Big difference between people doing it "behind people's backs" and a company constructing a system which facilitates it. If YOU personally are doing so, not making money and not making it obvious, the IP owner probably won't sue you. If DTG did it (or facilitated it) it's likely they would be sued, and that other companies who want to protect their IP won't give DTG licenses.
     
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  12. Mattty May

    Mattty May Guest

    What you do in your own home is your own business. If you choose to share things, that’s your choice. DTG has chosen not to allow sharing of liveries so that it can keep its licensing agreements in good standing.
     
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  13. mattdsoares

    mattdsoares Well-Known Member

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    It's a legal limitation if you insist on having mods created on PC appear in an officially sanctioned way on consoles. This is a self imposed arbitrary requirement and limit imposed by DTG on DTG.

    I respect you a lot, Sam, and appreciate your frank demeanor and no BS answers. But...this one is a little BS, or at least slightly misleading in my estimation. DTG could make modding tools or an SDK available to the PC community as countless games have in the past, and simply nothing more. Don't distribute the mods. Don't approve the mods. Don't use Steam workshop for the mods. Make the modders share the mods on their own time and website completely unsupported by DTG in any way, which again, is pretty standard, even for titles where mods will often use copyrighted and trademarked material. To essentially suggest that DTG have discovered some legal reasoning that bars PC modding that no other company ever has is a bit...out there.

    So I agree and totally believe you that there are very strong legal reasons around not allowing modding and an SDK/editor....IF DTG insists on that editor and modded content being available and distributed on console as well as PC. In that case, yes, totally. You cannot be in a position where someone creates a mod adding Virgin trains and shares it on console directly through DTG software. But again...that's not an issue if DTG simply take the position of every game that has allowed modding since the beginning of time and allow it on PC but not consoles. You're tying up your own hands through your own decisions and then complaining, "oh, we'd really love to, but our hands are tied".
     
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  14. mattdsoares

    mattdsoares Well-Known Member

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    It all comes down to console. Console, console, console. PC modding is NOT the issue here at all. With the DTG stance of everything on every platform or nothing stance, to get livery sharing, or any modding working on PC, DTG themselves would need to essentially build a way to share those mods in game. This leads to the problem of DTG then becoming an actual distributor of copyright and/or trademark infringing work. Until they give up this idea that consoles must have historically PC only capabilities like an SDK/editor, which is absurd, and one I've never seen any other game or any type, let alone a simulator take, nothing will change.

    That being said, as you've pointed out, lighter modding is absolutely possible. This is an UE4 game after all, which has an openly documented history of modding, which folks have already followed on PC.
     
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  15. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Has left the building Staff Member

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    I wasn't talking about modding, I'm talking about the sharing of liveries. The restriction there is entirely legal.

    When it comes to modding, we've taken the decision that mods must be usable on all our supported platforms. The nothing forcing us to do this, we've decided to do it, however the first things that would emerge would immediately cross the legal line. We cannot facilitate copyright infringement. Even with the caveats above, we'd still have facilitated it which goes against our contractual agreements with brand partners.

    I've said before that the limitation is both legal and commercial. The commercial element being that there'd be no way to prevent access, and therefore reproduction of assets created in the game or DLC. No need to concern ourselves with software piracy when we're delivering the tools that gift everything to everyone.

    Ultimately, we know you don't like it, but that's how it is. None of the problems are impossible to overcome and we're trying to work through them, but as it stands right now it looks like there will be no change in the status quo.
     
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  16. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    You've just answered your own question. DTG want everything to work everywhere, so there's no such thing as "PC modding", there's either modding in game using licensed tools or there isn't. I think this has been made clear
     
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  17. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    If illicit sharing is going to make obtaining and keeping licenses more difficult in the future then I think DTG should be making it harder for people to do it, not easier. Ooh, controversial. Not really. It just makes perfect sense for the company to protect its way of working to ensure they can still bring licensed material to us. How would everybody feel if DTG lost all their licenses from commercial rail companies and all future DLC was BR blue era because that’s all they could legally make? Hopping mad I would think.
     
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  18. mattdsoares

    mattdsoares Well-Known Member

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    Ok, my bad, we were both talking about slightly different things then. Totally on board with official sanctioned livery sharing being legally untenable. You'd probably have whatever livery sharer you create be awash in BNSF skins the first day lol.
     
  19. BR125

    BR125 Well-Known Member

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    you dont want real answers to your question. Im sure a fair amount of people would happily see DTG lose it all. Im not in that camp, although some competition would be nice - but making it harder to mod wouldnt be the answer - plus we'd probably still find ways to do it ;)
     
  20. mattdsoares

    mattdsoares Well-Known Member

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    Yes, you're right. I was confusing Sam's answer of "legal reasons" for why they don't allow an SDK/modding on PC with why they won't allow officially sanctioned livery sharing. I erroneously thought that he was claiming they won't allow a PC only editor/sdk because of legal, when he was only talking about liveries. PC only editing/modding is a DTG business decision and he's said as much in his clarification to me.
     
  21. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    That sounds perfect to me lol (not the losing the licences bit) but the everything in BR blue, green would be good too ;) !
     
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  22. Mattty May

    Mattty May Guest

    I’d much prefer DTG to release a bundle of alternative, licensed liveries or what they suggested in a live stream - have people submit liveries to them, be approved by them and made available to everyone else, with a small charge - maybe for charity?
     
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  23. mattdsoares

    mattdsoares Well-Known Member

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    At least then I wouldn't have to keep track of the weekly changes to franchise names, franchise colors and logos, franchise nationalization. As a man from the country that gave the world a nation led by a reality tv star...get it together :D
     
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  24. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    It might be a condition of the licence that they do make it hard for people to modify content involving the intellectual property rights of the brands involved. I think DTG need to err on the side of caution and make it as hard as possible.

    If people flout the rules then that is their lookout, hopefully they would just get themselves in trouble. I don't know if I could imagine someone deliberately taking an action to cause trouble to DTG, although there have been a few in the past who have openly admitted they would not be sorry to see their demise, which I think is plain weird.
     
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  25. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    Although I'd understand if DTG wouldn't spend resources on developing any kind of support or tool which only benefits a part of the player base, I do have a hard time understanding why PC players can't have stuff just because consoles don't have it.

    I'm sure there are other games that have more tools and possibilites for PC players than for other platforms. I know Farming Simulator is one of those games where mods are available for PC players (and even with an ingame modhub provided by the developers), while mods aren't available for consoles. It's too bad there's technical limitations for consoles, but why would that also need to restrict PC players?
     
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  26. mike370

    mike370 Active Member

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    In theory it shouldn't (or needn't) need to restrict PC player options. Instead it appears to be an active choice by the developer to keep everything the same (or as close as possible) across the various platforms. Presumably because they feel it's signficantly easier & more efficient to do so [& perhaps overall a more profitable development approach].
     
  27. mattdsoares

    mattdsoares Well-Known Member

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    To be honest I was absolutely shocked that DTG is going ahead and allowing all those layers in the Munchen Augsburg route after they said it isn't working well on consoles due to RAM contraints. I was waiting for Matt to say that because consoles will get a restricted version or no layers that they were going to hold off on PC too. So I guess kudos to DTG on that, though it's probably not great when your players have to feel like that...
     
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  28. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    ‘When it comes to modding, we've taken the decision that mods must be usable on all our supported platforms. The nothing forcing us to do this, we've decided to do it, however the first things that would emerge would immediately cross the legal line. We cannot facilitate copyright infringement.’

    Well I guess its positive that DTG have stated their position. What’s a pity is that they’ve taken so long to make the community aware. After all the fuss and discussions about the editor, going back to TSW1, they would have known that this issue around shared content would be important to many players.

    ‘Ultimately, we know you don't like it, but that's how it is’

    The biggest issue is why (with all the forums, streams etc.) no one has shared, or even hinted at this before.
     
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  29. globbits73

    globbits73 Member

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    That doesn't have to be true, we don't know what discussions or plans they've had over the years - they might have easily looked into many solutions before realising it was never going to be workable and had to simplify things. The editor is a case in point, where they had plans to release one for ages (even showing something in a stream), before realising that they relied on the Unreal tools so much they couldn't ship it as-is, and the effort of building something new wasn't worth the effort especially if they realised there was no way to avoid upsetting licensing partners.

    Many companies have all sorts of wacky and wonderful ideas that may or may not see the light of day, it's why most companies intentionally chose to say nothing at all until something gets released.
     
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  30. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    ‘they might have easily looked into many solutions before realising it was never going to be workable and had to simplify things. The editor is a case in point, where they had plans to release one for ages’

    Or they might not have, or the situation may have become clear sometime ago. I think it’s more than unlikely that this is a new policy.

    ‘Many companies have all sorts of wacky and wonderful ideas that may or may not see the light of day, it's why most companies intentionally chose to say nothing at all until something gets released’

    So your argument is the idea of content sharing, which had always been part of the DTG community is now a ‘wacky and wonderful idea’? Remember TSW is hardly new now. When they made the decision to move to TSW2 from TSW1 they didn’t know at that point?

    As for what they could and couldn’t share from Unreal tools there were several ITK posters (involved with the gaming industry) who suggested that what was being discussed wouldn’t work. Those posters got a lot of flak from others on the forum.

    There’s a lot of history around this. I see you joined the forum this year. You might want to go and look at some old threads and learn the evolution of this.
     
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  31. globbits73

    globbits73 Member

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    No, sorry, I wasn't trying to imply that content sharing was wacky and wonderful. I was just saying that companies have lots of different plans, some of which they know will never work out and kill quickly, some they get a fair way through before realising there are problems with it, some make it all the way through to release. This is the way software companies work, and exactly why companies traditionally don't like talking about anything in case things fall through. Anyone who has ever worked in software, myself included, will have stories about bugs and features that look like an hour's work to do upfront but have ended up taking weeks by the time you've finished nudging the jenga tower, or ones where a completely different department said it conflicts with something else, or times where we've told customers something can be done before we realised it can't..

    You're absolutely right, I don't know a single thing that goes on inside DTG, but based on things I have seen in other places, it wouldn't even surprise me if they had a system for sharing content set up and ready to go until someone from legal realised and went "You're doing what???" and killed it. Or you could just as conceivably be correct that they did work it there were problems earlier, and didn't have the reputation or level of communication with the community to express this. I don't know. But to me, the assumption that any company would know they could never do something for years and keep publicly pretending that it was possible feels more "conspiracy theory", but this is purely based off how I've seen other companies work, and very little knowledge of DTG or their history.
     
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  32. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    I used to make kits and stadiums for FIFA, PC has always been far, far easier to edit/mod for and consoles have almost been far more difficult to mod. Its the same no matter what programme or game you are talking about. Just having a proper file explorer programme is a start.

    Here is a line that comes up if you google the subject: "Basically, if a game has mods, then the PC version will always be superior."

    Now as a PC player it isn't hard to feel that you are not just keeping the playing field flat, but actually lowering PC players' potential in order to do so, which is disappointing. I am hopeful that they layer issue will highlight that you cannot expect everything to be the same across the different platforms and eventually PC will be given its head.

    I think you replied on a different thread that if you don't have a PC with good enough specs to play TSW then you can always go console route instead, well this is similar but the other way: if you want mods, get the PC version.
     
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  33. mattdsoares

    mattdsoares Well-Known Member

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    To be clear, whether or not DTG want to say mods are or are not supported, you can, and people are modding TSW to a limited extent. There are some things that can be done for modding in such a widely used and well documented engine as UE4 that regardless of official position, PC players can and are sharing liveries, adding announcements, and doing all sorts of other stuff.

    I just pray nightly that AP decides to get into the TSW game and makes a weather enhancement pack because the default skyboxes for TSW are god awful.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2020
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  34. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    This. It simply isn’t possible to have three different versions of the game (PC, Xbox & PlayStation) to look and perform EXACTLY the same. This has been proven in multiple games already.

    Intentionally ‘dumbing down’ the game on a particular platform is not the solution, nor is it wise to do so. Just because it may have certain (exclusive) features on a particular platform does not mean you’re alienating the players on the other platforms.
     
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  35. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    I’d like this too. Anything other than clear weather makes TSW looks absolutely awful. Cloud makes everything look washed out (and still too bright with copious amounts of bloom) and night you can just forget about. There’s too many issues with that to list.
     
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  36. BR125

    BR125 Well-Known Member

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    TSW looks pretty ok between 12:00 and 12:01 in clear conditions - after that everything gets oddly shiny and metallic.
     
  37. Rob39

    Rob39 Well-Known Member

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    Id suggested a solution in a past thread. If DTG went directly to the Stock owners and not the companies leasing the trains? Especially now we have the Livery editor?
     
  38. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    I wonder how snowrunner and farming sim (both with console mods in situ or coming) circumnavigate branded vehicles and equipment getting through?
     
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  39. mattdsoares

    mattdsoares Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure how getting a license to use a Class 350 from the company that actually owns them would also get you the rights to use the trademarks of a completely unrelated company that also happens to do business with the stock owner. Not convinced the connection and relationship works the way you think it does.
     
  40. mattdsoares

    mattdsoares Well-Known Member

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    Not familiar enough with them to know what they've implemented but in theory if they own their own mod distribution tools through the games, they could either A. curate the mod collection, removing anything uploaded that would violate trademarks or licenses they don't already have, or B. Play dumb, hope that none of the manufacturers sue, and if they do, claim it's not their fault because they didn't make the mods, they only host them. Or, play dumb and just respond to any legal letters they got by removing the offending mods.

    You'd be surprised how many companies cross their fingers and just go with B.
     
  41. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Dovetail really needs to improve how the environment of their routes look because it's god awful. A third party may do much better with weather then dtg
     
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  42. mattdsoares

    mattdsoares Well-Known Member

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    I'm still trying to figure out which planet's sky their cloud skybox is supposed to depict, because there's no way it's earth.
     
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  43. skyMutt

    skyMutt Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
    No way! These skyboxes are ABSOLUTELY ATROCIOUS...I mean...look at it! Whats with all that blue????? And the huge whispy clouds???? What planet is this supposed to represent? VENUS???
    Absolutely unacceptable. Uninstalling the game as we speak
     
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  44. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    It must be the new Mars Rapid Transit system, DB must have won the franchise, I thought Virgin would to be honest.

    I agree this thread has taught me how awful this sim is, I mean all these people who can't play it due to the awful graphics and the game breaking bugs must be right, I have seen the light!
     
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  45. davidh0501

    davidh0501 Well-Known Member

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    Damn how did Dtg miss that one?
    Bet they never went on the roof to check it out.
    Think I’ll rage quit in sympathy.
     
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  46. Class395

    Class395 Active Member

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    I just threw my console out my 4th floor window, that will teach'em.
     
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  47. Trenomarcus

    Trenomarcus Well-Known Member

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    You are deliberately only posting screenshots that validate your point.

    TSW is very good looking only if you look at specific situations and angles. Otherwise, could be really ugly.
     
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  48. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    Personally, there's quite a few oddities in the TSW skybox in many situations. Any clear sky works pretty well IMO, but anything with clouds is looking silly. You will always see sunlight and bright reflections, even when it's fully cloudy and heavy rain. In heavy rain there's also no limits to visibility. The same applies at night. While a clear sky with bright moonlight looks pretty cool (because a full moon can actually provide quite some light), a full cloudy and rainy night is way too bright on most routes, and visibility is way more than it should.

    It also seems the fog setting doesn't always work on all times. I remember setting a foggy nighttime and still have very good visibility.
     
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  49. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Has left the building Staff Member

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    This is a useful conversation, thanks for keeping it (mostly) non-combative. More follow-ups:
    The editor has been a set of moving goalposts since day 1. Matt and the team very definitely wanted to make a publicly usable editor part of TSW "project" as its value in simulation games needs no explanation. It took longer to make headway because the tools used internally were still very much work in progress, so it took a back seat to more pressing issues. Progress was made, but it was incredibly slow - all the while the players were told "it's coming", because it was.

    Full consideration of how these mods could be shared cross-platform, the impact it would have for compatibility testing, potential legal/license grey areas and how assets could be protected wasn't happening until this year. Naive? Maybe, but whatever the reason these considerations weren't part of the original editor specification is irrelevant the result remains the same - the project was stalled hard with no clear route out the other side.

    One of my objectives when I took on the role of communicating what's going on behind the scenes is to try and remove from the conversation anything without a basis in reality. Projects that had "I don't know" attached to them in any significant way would be treated as "not happening" until such a time that blocks had been removed. DTG had plenty of experience in talking about aspirations and that had led to a significant amount of disappointment, frustration and accusations of deceit with players. Better to admit that, for an indeterminate length of time, these hot-button projects be treated as not happening. Yes, this will disappoint people, but it's far better to deal only in what is a reality than some fantasy that may not happen.

    More succinctly, it's only recently that the brick wall in front of progress with the editor has been evident. Rather than stall for time we chose to publicly cancel the project until the wall is removed.

    Easy - they don't ask. Farm Sim has licensed DLC available, and that's clearly done with agreement from the company involved but they've clearly opted to allow the community a free hand at pursuing anything they please. This goes unseen because the licensing people at farming equipment companies may not have considered that their copyright is being infringed by a specialist video game. When they do discover that it's happening the conversation probably goes,
    "We could shut all these mods down if we wanted."
    "Do we want to?"
    "It won't make us popular."
    "Are we losing anything by allowing it to happen?"
    "Hard to say."

    It's a tricky one. I suspect (but have no evidence) that it's a combination of remaining below radar coupled with a lack of understanding/realisation from the brands concerned.

    Here's a parallel: for the first ten games in a popular shooter franchise the teams would use real-world weapons without the permission of the manufacturers. One day, one of these manufacturers pointed out that this franchise was making a lot of money off the back of their designs. Collectively, all the manufacturers then "requested" a license to use said designs in the games going forward.

    In our case, part of the problem is that we've tried to sign licenses with almost every train operator you can imagine (in our core 3 countries) and some have said no. How long do you think it would take their legal people to get a bit lively were the community to release something bearing their license? Second, who do you think said legal people would pursue?

    We want licenses because we want to do things legitimately. We also want to deliver authenticity and, as much as possible, get access to the real world equipment we're trying to replicate in the virtual world. As such, we've raised our head above the parapet for the legal teams at these operators, so whatever happens with their brands in out game will be noticed.
     
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  50. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    DTG Protagonist , how does Trainz do it? I'm not too familiar with the series, but don't they have mod support? They'd be dealing with the very same rail operators as you do, isn't it?
     
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