Hello, I am looking for timetables in the British Rail pre-privatisation era to do some scenarios, I find it difficult to find the services and used rolling stock, does anyone know any place with information? I would appreciate it, Thanks!
In my opinion you need to be looking for old copies of the WTT (Working Timetable)... They are the bible in train times and will contain far more info than the "public" timetables... If you punch "Working Timetable" into a well known online auction site you're sure to find plenty... Oh... and you need to know what areas / regions you want in particular... Eric
oh thanks I didn't know, I'll take a look, I will also look to see if I can find something on the web
You can get the modern current day version here: https://www.networkrail.co.uk/running-the-railway/the-timetable/working-timetable/ It's a bit of a faff to navigate but I'm sure you'll work it out... Eric
There are plenty on e-bay, I have acquired several over the last few months as I prefer to use those to passenger timetables where possible. They can get quite expensive sometimes depending on the period, steam period ones in particular. There are some on there at a "buy it now price" which are quite high, some eventually come down in price if you watch them long enough! If you google working timetable or WTT then you will find many second hand book shops, especially railway book dealers but not confined to those, selling them. Often fund raising shops/stalls at preserved railways have them, obviously they might not be accessible at the moment.
Thanks for the answers, very grateful! I already saw the books you were referring to in some bookstores, I imagine that I will get all the information about the services as well as the locomotives used, this interests me enough to see what services each of them did, both as a passenger and as a freight service and being able to do some semi-realistic scenarios
Most WTT's have a timing load which is often the tonnage of the train and usually a D for diesel or E for electric. DMU's have a timing load from D1 to D5, if you google timing loads there are sites which give some details of what each one means, the Simsig sight I think is the one I found out what D1 to D5 stood for. The Southern did things a little different from what I can tell, my 1965 and 1993 Waterloo Suburban WTT's don't seem to give details of what sort of unit operated what, I think the Southern produced carriage working books which probably give those details, the only timing loads given in the 1993 WTT are the class 159's and a few local hauled trains hauled by a diesel or electro-diesel. I did find an interesting path for a test train which I want to try and find out more about. Second generation DMU's were noted as DMU and a figure in brackets (E) being express Sprinter. There are sectional appendixes which accompany WTT's which give details of timing loads if you can find those as well, however googling will normally find you the answers. The model railway sites are good for this too.
WTT's won't necessarily give you the booked traction (particular loco class) more whether it's diesel or electric etc... You may have to go down the road of googling or asking if you have any particular questions... Eric
There were some books produced around the mid 80's which gave a list of all loco hauled diagrams, I have a couple somewhere, it was during the time Sprinters and Pacers were starting to make their mark and classes like the 25 and 45 were reaching their final days. But yes a WTT won't tell you the booked traction. I have found, particularly for freight if you google a train reporting number you will find photo's of the particular train, I found some of a St. Blazey Speedlink service which started from 1975 and a Western right up to the last 15 years and a class 66, although I don't think it was called a Speedlink by then, seemed to be the same train reporting number though.
I would particularly like to know about WCML from Glasgow to London Euston including also the Liverpool - Manchester leg. I would also like GWR services. As for Rolling Stock to know the services they did, long and medium distance routes, if I am correct I know that London-Glasgow services were made by class 86's if I am not mistaken and later class 90's, even half distance like London- Liverpool / Manchester if I'm not mistaken. But for example I don't know what services the Class 31's did in both BR Blue and RR livery .. I think I'm going to have to look for the books you told me or search a lot in Goolge xD
Google will have a lot of information, there are many enthusiasts sites, plus photobucket and Flickr for example. Youtube has some wonderful footage from the 80's and 90's from enthusiasts and their camcorders. I think from what I have read the class 87 were very much the mainstay of the Glasgow services, possibly even after the class 90 had been introduced. They had been built for the extension of the electrification from Preston northwards. Class 86's were very common on the Birmingham and Wolverhampton services, in my trainspotting days around New Street in the late 80's/early 90's they were a regular sight then. The Regional Railway class 31's I think were used on the Manchester to Barrow service if I recall and I have seen some footage of them in the North Wales Coast Line although the class 37's were the main traction on that route in the mid to late 90's. Blue 31's were used on Birmingham to Norwich and I have a cab ride of one from Manchester to Barrow, I know there were some in the Trans-Pennine pool but they wouldn't have regularly worked Newcastle to Liverpool, not sure if they were used on some Scarborough services. I think in the 70's they replaced the Hymeks on the Paddington to Worcester services and of course the suburban services out of Kings Cross but that is before your time period I believe. Bristol had some 31/4's not sure if they would have been used on some Bristol to Weymouth services.
Thank you very much for the information. On flickr I have looked at many good photos from those years, but many do not say or do not know the specific service, but it is a very good help. I have to research the websites of rail enthusiasts and find more information. I wanted to ask you, in the Transpennine Newcastle-Liverpool service which were the main locomotives? I know that class 40 and 47 was one of the main ones as far as I know, and class 31 from what you told me in some services. On GWR Penzance-London which locomotive did they use in direct service? For me it is the best time and all this information I really appreciate!
The Trans-Pennine services were worked by class 40, 45 and 47. The class 45's were used largely after they had been moved away from the Midland Mainline by the HST's so around the early to mid 80's. I think the 40's were taking more of a back seat by then, although I have a recording of one on a Leeds to Manchester service around 1983. The 47's were very common and pretty much exclusive after the class 45's were withdrawn in 87 and 88, until the advent of Sprinters around 1991. From the late 70's in the Paddington line most express train were HST's, although there were still a fair few loco workings mainly by class 50's and 47's although they dwindle the later you go. I have some WTT's and there were quite a few loco workings on Summer Saturdays. The Paddington to Oxford express was class 50 hauled through much of the 80's and supplemented then supplanted by class 47's in the late 80's until around 1993 when the class 166's took over. At the end there were quite a varied collection of class 47's running these services, quite a few ex Tinsley freight loco's IIRC. The 80's were a very interesting period on the railways and not represented nearly enough in Train Simulator in my opinion.
I tweeted West Midlands Railway at the end of last year during a particularly bad period of reliability - "congratulations on your nomination for the Man-Booker prize for fiction". It wasn't met with the light heartedness to which it was intended!
Thanks for the information, class 47 would then be the main one after class 45 was withdrawn, even on the Paddington-Penzance services in GWR together with the Class 50. The services from Wales to Paddington or Penzance were also carried out with Class 47 and 50 apart from the HST? I totally agree, personally it is the time that I like the most, including the early 90's.I think there are not many routes based on this time on TS. This is why one of my favorite routes is South Lancashire and North Cheshire in BR Blue Period, although there are more based on those times like Railways of Devon 1985 or NCW on BR Blue period.
Some of the modern routes can suffice. I have been making some BR NSE day scenarios on the London to Brighton and South London Network route, although there are some landmarks like the Shard which weren't then and signals are LED rather than traditional colour light I doubt the actual rail corridor has changed a huge amount since the 1990's. I have also been driving DMU's, 37's and 50's on the Cornish Mainline route. South Lancashire and North Cheshire is a fantastic route, I would love someone to please make a class 108 for it and a 304 for the upcoming Crewe to Liverpool section. I haven't got Railways of Devon as I haven't got the Western Mainline Paignton extension. I think some loco's were used on the South Wales services after the HST's were introduced but probably not that much. I shall try and look in one of my WTT's. After the HST's were introduced they were mainly used out of Paddington on the Oxford services and I think to some extent the Worcester and Hereford services. Sleeper services and Summer Saturday services too, there may have been a couple of diagrams for them alongside the HST's. Cross Country services to the West Country too were regularly loco hauled. There was a period where class 50's operated them from New Street after taking over from an electric loco.
Im agree, the truth that in many routes scenarios can be done at that time, such as WCML North or WCML OS among many others. Unfortunately I don't have Railways of Devon 1985 either and I try to do the scenarios in JT Western Mainlines which is the one I have, although I am missing the Class 50 (I hope to get it soon from AP). I also try to recreate Class 52 scenarios although I always lack information to add more rolling stock. For Cross Country and GWR I will then use HST. I think I will also try to do scenarios in South Lancashire and North Cheshire, and if as you say they will update to Crewe (I didn't know it ..) it will be incredible!
Class 47's were used on Cross Country services, there were a dedicated batch with larger fuel tanks numbered in the 478xx series introduced in the end of the 80's which lasted till around 2003 under Virgin Cross Country and the introduction of the Voyagers. I don't know particularly which services they covered and which ones the HST's covered. It was common for them to change engines with AC Electrics at New Street again into Virgin days in those instances I would imagine they were used on North West and Glasgow to the South Coast and South West services. Class 45's were still seen on Cross Country services as late as 1986.
Thanks again it is being of great help, I did not know that the Class 45 offered Cross Country services apart from the Class 47, I will try to start doing some scenarios with all this information and with what I find in google.
Thank you! I had looked at DPsimulation TTs before, but I'm looking specifically for the 80s and 90s ... the oldest thing I saw was around the early 2000s. But I found one there that I hadn't seen and the one I am interested is the "EWS / Royal Mail Timetable - 1996 "
It would not have been at the time but now it is just archive material WTT's are still available from then and even todays are on the NR Website
You can still get archive WTT's off the NR website??? That should be right up the OP's street provided they go back far enough .. Eric
I hadn't realised there were either. I have just gone onto the Network Rail archive, searched on working timetables and indeed they are there. It seems to go back to 2008 so very useful for many of the more modern routes we have. So thanks Peter for the heads-up.
Peter, Yes if you go on this link and and scroll down to "explore the archive" https://www.networkrail.co.uk/who-we-are/our-history/the-network-rail-archive/ It then opens in a new window and you can search. Or use this link: https://history.networkrail.co.uk/
seeing as it's been necro'd I might as well add that 2d53 has pretty complete timetables for North Wales in the BR Blue era http://www.2d53.co.uk/TT/TTmenu.htm
Neat. Just looked up a 1990 one. I know there is a BR Blue era version of NWC out there that the BR Blue timetables would work nicely for. Just have to figure out what trains run them... 1994 actually. This was discussed mid-thread.
Isn't it 2003? Network Rail didn't even exist in 1994. If they do have some going back that far I can't see them, would love to find some going back that far as I have been finding second hand hard copies on ebay and other websites.
That is interesting, thanks, where are they on the site? I have looked under working timetables and they start at 2003 https://history.networkrail.co.uk/uncategorized/SO_4b13306b-816a-4d77-89ec-630d6beb2680/ EDT: Ignore me I have just found them! I hadn't seen the link to the Railtrack section. This is very useful, thank you.
As per Peter's response, there is train formation info available (despite it being a model railway product site). You can click on the icons to the right of each formation for photo/video evidence of them working, and it broadly covers the era you're interested in, as per your post.
There is also the well known “bashing” game called Hellfire which has a database of passenger timetable from 1981. It costs around £30 but offers a bit of, admittedly graphically simple fun, but more important you can pull up a list for each station on the network and it will give a 24 hour list of passenger services. No info on freight though.