Why No Route Extensions?

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by kosti.nuuja, Dec 9, 2020.

  1. kosti.nuuja

    kosti.nuuja Well-Known Member

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    It's a bad thing that DTG has refused to make route extensions, because it can be the only way to get long routes for TSW2. Long routes are must, if we want to get the full experience of train driving. Short routes would be interesting only for short time, and then you will get tired of with it. If you want to drive long routes, use TS20xx. But it has bad performance. So, if we get long routes for TSW2, it would feel much better, and route extensions would be the only realistic way to get them. But there are no route extensions coming for TSW2 in long time.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2021
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  2. fakenham

    fakenham Well-Known Member

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    Totally agree. An addon to GWE would be great!
     
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  3. 59321747

    59321747 Well-Known Member

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    My guess is that since TS20XX is also a member of DTG, they give the long route to TS20XX and the short circuit to TSW. Because they developed TSW as Unreal Engine, they still need to pay a part of the cost to EPIC, so the most important cost to reduce is the development time and short distance.

    Of course this is a personal guess
     
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  4. Pennywise

    Pennywise Active Member

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    I totally agree with that. If you only look at RRO, the length of the route is actually a joke and with travel times of 20 to 30 minutes only a short trip. An extension of the route to Düsseldofrf would be nice. HRR could also be expanded in one direction to Düsseldorf and in the other to Dortmund. This would almost double the travel times with the S-Bahn on both routes and you could also travel longer with a Regional Express and the ICE.
     
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  5. mclitke

    mclitke Well-Known Member

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    Funny enough, both are my favorite routes to play on. These are also the only routes where I think an extension would make sense, but that boils down to personal preference. Looking at the DB br 101, that could also highly benefit from a longer route.
    But I somehow doubt that extensions are ever going to be considered. It just screams "lack of sales" because you need to sift out your target audience even more. A new route will surely cater to a broader audience.
     
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  6. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

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    Length doesn’t matter, the activities you do matter..... :) . In all seriousness, and as it has been stated several times by many different people in DTG, there isn’t a technical limitation to route length in the UE4 engine. It comes down to quality of the scenery and time to develop such.

    I use TS20xx extensively (well over 5000 hours since I started in 2013) and have found the long routes like Cajon, Maria’s and Steven’s pass are seldom used because of the time required to complete a run. Contrary to the OP’s assertion, TS20xx runs well on my system. All that being said, I still prefer activities that last between 60 to 90. So short local freights, switching, commuter runs that fall into that time range, for me are enjoyable. Longer runs than 60 minutes doing nothing more than driving from A to B are a bit of a drudgery. I do beta testing for a commercial scenario developer fo TS and the 60 minutes is the length he tries to shoot for on his scenarios... seems to be the sweat spot.

    Matt P. In a stream a while ago explained why extensions were difficult to create because of the way routes are currently distributed, but I can’t remember the specifics if it was due to timetables or something else. But if those technical problems are such they can be overcome, extensions would be fine. But I would still seek out the activities that would fit my available time to complete.... NOW if the game had a save function that would not cause problems, that would shed a whole different light on the discussion.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2020
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  7. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    As I use TSW(2) more I do start to feel this should be on DTG's radar. GWE is the obvious first candidate with an extension to Oxford or Swindon, or even just add in the TV branches (including freight).
    NTP definitely should go to York and/or Liverpool, though given the slow nature of the route not such a huge issue.
    Tees Valley definitely feels short, particularly some of the freight runs are only about 20 minutes. Not sure what the logical extension would be - Boulby certainly, Bishop Auckland perhaps, Newcastle maybe.
    Bakerloo should extend to include the rest of the DC Lines (Euston to Watford) and maybe the North London Line too, Stratford to Richmond (would really like Broad Street but the era is wrong).
    The German routes in particular suffer from short syndrome particularly if running non-stop.
     
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  8. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    Some people ask for 300 mile routes. I can’t think of anything more off putting than being faced with the prospect of driving a train along a route that long. But that’s what some people want. Give me interesting things to do instead of miles and miles of uninterrupted track with little to do.

    I’d like to propose a route reduction for LIRR. I get seriously bored well before reaching Hicksville. I wish they would have chopped the route off earlier so I can finish my run sooner and still get a medal ;)
     
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  9. mclitke

    mclitke Well-Known Member

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    This is very relatable. I like the 60 minute ones most, though it is also nice to hop in for a short 30 min run as well. Everything exceeding 1 hour starts feeling dragged for me personally very fast. It is the reason why I (as often mentioned, sorry) rarely play sand patch, West somerset or rapid transit.
    And just as you said, with a save function that doesn't ruin the service, that would be no problem at all...
    No experience with the old TS20xx though to compare.
     
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  10. Pennywise

    Pennywise Active Member

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    But the length also plays a role on some routes. RRO offers just about 20 minutes travel time on a Regional Express or a freight train. If you were to be able to play an IC or ICE, you would only get about 15 minutes for the whole route, which is far too little. Also, length does not mean less activity, probably the opposite is the case because you can have even more traffic.
     
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  11. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

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    That is my point.... it is the activity that matters, and personal preferences. A two hour commuter run with 30 stops would be of no interest to me. The release of the high speed French route will be the longest yet released, but people feel it is too short because of the speed while many complain that Sand Patch Grade is too long again because of the speed. This supports my assertion that the activities should be between 45 - 90 minutes regardless of length.

    It will be interesting to see how the “auto-gen” of the next release will be received by the community. Personally, a long route with generic auto-gen that does not closely match reality would be disappointing. With Google Earth, Bing maps it is too easy to compare the general “feel” of an area and compare to what is presented by the simulation. However, if the auto-gen does closely match reality, and enough custom assets are sprinkled throughout to sustain that feel, then we have a winner!
     
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  12. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    I'm already finding this to an extent with Run 8. Having added £60 of trackage to give me from Barstow via San Bernardino into LA, much of it is just more of the same - yellow desert scenery with little or no variety and low track speeds which mean you can't zip through the boring bits.

    Maybe a network of lines is the answer, i.e. occupies a relatively small area but plenty of options ad variation. My suggestion above re adding the Thames Valley branches (Greenford, Brentford, Colnbrook, Windsor, Marlow and Henley) refers. You could do a couple of trips on the Henley branch, on the cushions to Maidenhead then do a couple of Marlow's etc. etc. Would add greatly to the variety for a relatively modest increase in route mileage.
     
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  13. ZeenozPlays

    ZeenozPlays Well-Known Member

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    This has been said multiple times. DTG aren’t making extensions. I agree, extensions would be great, but there is a 90% chance they aren’t coming.

    There wouldn’t be such a high demand for them if they just included the whole route.
     
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  14. Sharon E

    Sharon E Well-Known Member

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    I can relate to this, I wrote activities for MSTS on the longer routes like CP's Kicking Horse Pass and several others. People want activities which are easily playable in one sitting of 60 minutes or less with, based on my experience 30 - 45 minutes. I handled this by writing several short segments for longer activities and would use station stops or going into sidings/loops as break points to get from one to the next. If we did get longer routes on TSW2 this would be the way to go in my humble opinion.
     
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  15. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    There wouldn't be such a demand for extensions if they just included the whole route in the first place and not part of it. Sure you can add serveral different trains like in hrr, but once you do most of it, the route gets boring. A longer route wouldn't mean less activity but probably the opposite depending on the route like a lot of the german routes with layers. I don't use the Regional Express services on hrr because of how quick it can be done, but if the route was longer, I would use the train more than the s-bahn services
     
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  16. eighty.aitch

    eighty.aitch Member

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    Completely agree with you. I recently went back to Weardale on TS2021 (my personal favourite route) and it's a huge network. You can't drive from one end to the other without doubling back on yourself if you want to visit every station, but there's usually a couple of ways to get to the same place.
    This is what I'd like to see more of in TSW. Especially if scenarios or services take advantage of it. Being told to drive to one end of the line, then the scenario/service continues and you head back the way you came but half way along branch off somewhere different.

    Route map for those interested https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd....648/EFAB7BE9BF766720F67869749FE6657BAA30F23C/

    Obviously I'm not expecting this sort of size in TSW (although I can dream right?!) but some kind of network where it isn't just end to end would, for me, be a lot more interesting than a long point to point.
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2020
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  17. LT586

    LT586 Well-Known Member

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    Yes a full run on Cornish Mainline including Western Mainline to Plymouth with the current HST is a chore; A it takes too long to climb a hill and if we had a modern trainset it may make it a little more likeable as the HST is good for long stops but the 60mph running is a tire
     
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  18. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Has left the building Staff Member

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    Just to add some data into the mix here, the average play session (how much a player is in the game in a single sitting) is 27 minutes.

    In Train Simulator the average session was at the same amount +/- 3 mins when we evaluated how long we should make scenarios and services. We get that there is plenty of interest in longer services, but historically, even when those have been available they haven't been popular. Through surveying we know that an average player dedicates around 4 hours to the game per week, spread over 4-5 sessions.

    With that in mind the sweet-spot for a service or scenario is in the 20-60 minute range.

    That's not to say that a 3 hour service won't happen, just that we try to target designs that appeal to the widest section of our players.
     
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  19. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

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    Pretty much agrees with what I have stated about my habits in the TS Franchise over the past 8 or so years. Glad to see my assumptions about the playing community were correct. Thanks for posting some empirical evidence concerning this matter.

    Also wasn’t there some technical obstacles to creating extensions to existing routes?
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2020
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  20. Tank621

    Tank621 Well-Known Member

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    For me personally, an hour is fine for me. However, if that 'hour' is a stopping service then an express feels very short by comparison. I think if an hour was the target for the quickest service on the route that would feel a bit more satisfying. A local stopper doesn't have to run the whole route for a 'mission' anyway, a bay platform partway works fine for making sure the slower stuff doesn't become excessively long.
     
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  21. tbaac

    tbaac Well-Known Member

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    I assume that one obstacle to route extensions is that some people will expect them to be a lot cheaper than a new route.
    And it would be nice to have all of the WCML modelled for example, but I doubt I'd be driving the full length of it very often. I agree that I'd rather have 30 to 60 minutes in a scenario.
     
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  22. Tank621

    Tank621 Well-Known Member

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    I think extensions would work if they themselves could be standalone routes in themselves, less an extension to a route, and more a different section that can be joined with another if you own both.
     
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  23. Pennywise

    Pennywise Active Member

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    That with an average playing time of 20 to 60 minutes might be ok, but why do you artificially cut routes so that, as with RRO and HRR, regardless of which train service you want to drive, you are always at the bottom of the scale? Especially on these routes you only get a maximum of 30 minutes for the entire route. In contrast, you can play on routes such as NTP, Sand Patch, GWR or Rapid Transit services for up to an hour or more. The relationship is not right there and that could be counteracted with an expansion.
     
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  24. BigMountain555

    BigMountain555 Well-Known Member

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    I love trains, but I can't fathom sitting here for 90 minutes, 2 hours, etc. 30-60 minutes is just fine for me as a) I have other things to do and b) I like to try different routes, different locos during a sitting. I would rather spend 60 minutes driving 2 separate routes.
     
  25. 59321747

    59321747 Well-Known Member

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    I see that many players need about 30-60 minutes of game time, which is about an hour. I want to see a very good route from San Francisco to San Jose on my long trip in the coming year, but the scenery at the back is a feast for tourists, why not extend it back 168 miles? Here comes the problem. Many players do not like long-distance travel. I just want to say to these players: "The game can provide you with a save service" You can save the progress in the game and do whatever you want, etc. There is enough time to continue the train journey. For the length of the route, you can use a large DLC to extend the DTG. How to extend the price of 40 miles ($19.9) to get up to five extended full travel routes. Both trucks and buses can run on it. Satisfy the players. Players who do not like the complete route can choose to purchase one of their favorite routes.
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2020
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  26. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    This I agree with. If you don't want to do a full two hour service for example, the game has a save mode in which you can save your progress and you can continue from where you saved the game if dtg were to actually make it that way. This could satisfy both parties who would want to do a full two hour service and players who may not want to do the full two hour service. American Truck Simulator has this feature in which if your doing a job that may take 2-3 hours, you can save the game and come back to it later and tsw2 can certainly have this feature. DTG can make a standlone dlc as a extension similar to Rhur Sieg Nord and Rhein Rhur Osten and combine the routes together to make a extension. The tech is there to do that
     
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  27. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Yeh the balance of those routes are not right timewise. A extension to hrr and rro actually makes sense because they are so short that there is not enough gameplay time since they can be done quickly.
     
  28. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    This to me sounds like you basically used data from ts2021 which is a pc only game and make services around 30-60 minutes without taking into consideration console players who may never have owned ts2021 (railworks) to satisfy those players and what they want compared to console players who may want to do passenger services that are longer than a hour. Also the average service in tsw2 can be done in around 30-50 minutes in most routes with the exception of spg so I'm not really suprised that the average game time is 27 minutes since the time to do a service is about an hour or less on most routes. TSW is a console game as well
     
  29. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Has left the building Staff Member

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    We've tried ultra-short scenarios (10-15 mins) and longer ones (2 hour) in the mix to prove out the data. These have historically been the least popular things we released.
     
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  30. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    The issue with saving is that people like the start and end bit, they like starting up and shutting down, so having to play the save bit in the middle where you load in and are going at 200kph and then after 45 mins you have to save it again and all you did was press Q...its not a great experience. I think a better idea would be to have some longer and some shorter services on each route so people have a choice, but I guess DTG are saying not many people would play the longer routes so it isn't worth their while making them?

    The further data that would be useful is the distribution of the playing time at the higher end. Also if people do play for 2-4 hours, what do they do in that time? Service mode going back and forth? Do they spend that long on a single day of gametime or are they moving between routes? If they are moving around then likely they wouldn't want to do the same thing for ages, but if they are going up and down the same line all the time maybe they would? Hard to tell of course!

    In terms of the discussion about the technical feasibility and route specifics, I am interested in the tech behind the new GWE dlc which suggests a second timetable layer, perhaps there is something in that new ability that might make extensions feasible now?
     
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  31. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    It's hard to gauge what players are doing for 2-4 hours in a game. They could be collecting collectables, doing back and fourth services on the Bakerloo line or on another line, walking around etc. I personally would rather them make a nice long service like on spg because I like long services but of course there must be a balance to satisfy all players. I wish we could get a nice long high speed route that can be used for more than a hour with the high speed train instead of having the ability to only do a 30 minute service. Heck, if they made the full line of a route instead of part of a route then there wouldn't be so many people asking for route extensions. Also in most routes you don't get the ability to start up a train and shut it down anyways do to the fact that the routes are not full line routes and your starting at the middle of a particular route and you don't go the full way and in some routes, you can't take a certain train to the depot. Maybe route extensions are feasible now with some new tech developed
     
  32. Scorpion71

    Scorpion71 Well-Known Member

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    The Weardale route is one route I'd love to see in TSW2! Perhaps with little extensions here and there. We have a few of the loco's which can be re-skinned for that period, except of course there'd be no steam so would be BR Green era and a few more wagons would be required.
     
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  33. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Yes Weardale is a classic example of a "network" style route, always something new to see and do. A TSW2 version complete with all day timetable would be a Day 1 purchase for me. Paging Mr. Siddle… :)
     
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  34. Sharon E

    Sharon E Well-Known Member

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    I still go back to what I said earlier. Knowing that the average player wants something around 30 - 45 minutes you design the scenario to be that length. This has nothing to do with how long the actual route is. Like I did when writing activities in MSTS, I would set up for the sum of the activities to be the entire route, some of which were several hundred of miles long, yet each activity was never more then 45 minutes and always had an end point in each. The next in the series picked up where the prior one ended. Each could be played as a stand alone or as a sum of the total.
     
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  35. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    I find it odd where Sam said on youtube that making longer routes is not the problem it is making them 'interesting. I looked forward to the GWE route expecting to see Paddington to Bristol but no only to Reading? Over half missing, there are stops on the way to make it interesting, Didcot Parkway, Swindon, Bristol etc so why drop over half?
    Sam also said that DTG have a program to do the scenery automatically for them so for me at least it seems a little short. I'm sure people will play them given the chance to but then it all depends if people want that route in the first place. and there could easily be a 'save' function to split the journey if needed, they could put the 'save' function into stations so you can pick up where you left off.

    Or how about let us do it? DTG could do the track and stations and then say we could plan the route. I'm sure it would be popular and people would have the choice of doing any length of journey they wished too no?
     
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  36. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    So long as you can save the game, I don't have an issue with long routes or long activities. Some of my favourites outside TSW2 are the Australian routes in MTST/OR - Coals to Newcastle is huge and going from Sydney to Tarree is about 9 hours total driving. However if I'm driving the night train, I want to pick up where I left off with all the delays and other little factors that might have introduced themselves during the previous session. I don't want it in little parcels of an hour or so, completely unrelated to each other. I actually found that quite bothersome on some of the longer TS20xx Canadian and US routes, where scenarios which took you through the complete route were very sparse indeed.
     
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  37. ZeenozPlays

    ZeenozPlays Well-Known Member

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    That last part sounds a lot like the ed-

    Yes.
     
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  38. Yerolo

    Yerolo Well-Known Member

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    One thing that was mentioned on today's LGV stream re route extensions, is that DTG want to avoid releasing DLC which requires DLC (not counting loco DLC).

    With that in mind, its highly unlikely we will see route extensions for any TSW route unless DTG decide to change their stance on this.
     
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  39. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    If people who are asking for route extensions are willing to pay for it as that would most likely be the case if that happened, then why hesitate releasing a extension as a dlc if people are willing to pay for it? It doesn't make any sense
     
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  40. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    A save function would be a good compromise for long services in my opinion
     
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  41. Yerolo

    Yerolo Well-Known Member

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    I think DTG want to avoid the situation we have in TSxx where sometimes it is unclear what DLC is required to run a certain DLC or having lots of dependencies. TBH it is a real mess for some of the routes....esp it you delve into the 3rd party marketplaces trying to figure out how many DLCs you will need to run another.

    Just spitballing here, but I wonder if the base routes in TSW2 (ie SPG, SKA & BL) are classed as non-DLC and they would consider extensions for SKA at least ? Then again, it's highly likely those 3 routes will become DLC and another set of routes become the base when it is repackaged again next year (as they did for TSW2020)
     
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  42. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Let's say for example that dtg made a extension for Great Western Express from Reading to Bristol Temple Meads. All you would really need to use the extension is the current great western express route from Paddington To Reading so unless they were to add new gwr trains to the extended part of gwe which I don't think would happen if they did that, I don't see why that would be so complicated. A route extension is a extension to a base route made that didn't go the full way. It shouldn't be so complicated in terms of dependencies. You would just need to own the base route to use the extension
     
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  43. Yerolo

    Yerolo Well-Known Member

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    It may not seem complicated to you...but it's the very situation DTG are trying to avoid as I mentioned. Unless GWE somehow became a free to play route, I doubt it will be even considered.
     
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  44. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I used GWE as a example and with the tech they have, it's not impossible to even do route extensions
     
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  45. Yerolo

    Yerolo Well-Known Member

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    I know...but what I'm saying is this philosophy can be applied to all of TSW2's content as it is all treated as DLC which needs to be purchased (assuming the base package is reshuffled next year). We heard it straight from the horse's mouth today

    This is obviously a design goal of TSW from the beginning (which is why we haven't seen any extensions since it was released).

    I doubt it is a technical barrier...I'm sure technically it is quite doable. It is probably due to them wanting to keep everything more streamlined than TSxx and seeing as though this is in the PC section, I am probably not ruffling too many feathers here by saying that the console release maybe had alot to do with it
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2020
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  46. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    You may be right but I'm sure dtg can find a way to keep a route and a extension to a route streamlined. I know that extensions won't come anytime soon but they would be cool to have in the game. It would make a route more complete
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2020
  47. ZeenozPlays

    ZeenozPlays Well-Known Member

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    *Ahem* Wouldn't have to if the route was completed in the first place. Please DTG, I'm tired of giving my service to another operator.
     
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  48. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Im tired of doing that as well.
     
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  49. kosti.nuuja

    kosti.nuuja Well-Known Member

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    This question is primarily for DTG. Can TSW2 routes be merged?
     
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  50. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

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    Yes, in fact Matt has confirmed that the process of merging the routes themselves (trackage, scenery, signalling) is fairly simple and has already been done by enterprising community members. Currently, the difficult bit of merging routes is the logistics of combining the separate timetables.
     
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