I guess he means a long enough route where it's possible to reach 200 km/h and still have an adequate journey time, so only HMA (but obviously they are not going to add another layer to that route - at least on console) but I would love to see it on RRO as well.
I’d want it to have the IC coaches and cab car. The fact these aren’t mentioned has me thinking they won’t be included, but I’ll likely only buy the DLC if they are.
I'm 99,9999% sure the coaches come with it. Matt did confirm 2 classes (prob. first and second class). Maybe a Avmz and Bimz? What is not confirmed: a cab car. What seems possible but is unlikely: A dining car (Since we'll only get 2 types of coaches, according to Matt. I know, dining cars are also more or less first class like the ARkimbz dining cars)
As said above I just think loco + coaches + cab car is simply too much effort for a loco DLC, so it´s not profitable. The case of NEC control car was different as there they only sold the shunter and the control cars. The regular coaches where already included in the route. They will most likely include it with another DLC in the future. I think it would be better if they don´t use double 101s. It´s deffinitely odd. It would be better if they just use one engine and flip the consists for each route direction in the timetable with a head shunt movement if required (as in WSR), by coupling a new 101 and uncoupling the original or just deleting the old service (sending it out of station) and creating a new one for each direction (as done with the freight services). The first two cases are quite frequent during real operation in many lines worldwide where there´s a terninus station as not all trains use control cars. Even the IC consists are frequently operated without them. Cheers
Err didn't the baby bullet DLC include the loco, bi-level cars + control car? Isn't that the same thing with 2 locos + a carriage. Also there was a BR Heavy freight pack which included 2 new locos + 2 new wagons and now they are planning a BR Blue pack for the GWE which could include 2+ locos + passenger cars or wagons? So I would disagree that it's too much effort if they are able to do these... I don't think there's a chance in hell that they would add a cab car later as another separate DLC, can you imagine the backlash of having to buy 2 separate DLC to get a proper formation. Again, think about the Dostos...
Yes, yes, I know. But DTG moves by numbers. If they don´t include it now there´s something with the profit in my opinion. I don´t expect anything technical behind it as the control cab is indeed like the Dostos in terms of what it has or its development complexity (nothing new for devs). The BR blue pack can use existing 3D models and cabs (class 37, class 20 and class 52 for instance) and maybe add a Deltic model as completely new content, so this can be a repaint pack mainly which is less expensive than creating complete locomotives from scratch. And also the freight wagons don´t have interiors (or they are empty) but passengers cars have it. This means all interior, lights, walkable paths and interactive elements like doors to be added, in addition to the control cab itself. Cheers
If you're not going to model the whole unit set, what's the point in modelling part of it? I mean, I wouldn't want a UK IC225 set without a DVT for instance, what would be the point!
While this is an awesome idea and a lot more true-to-life, it isn't something thats feasible in the game. What you're describing would involve creating a whole new layer. The problem is, this has never been done before; no loco DLC has added layers, especially for routes that came before it. All of the DLC locos (if I'm not mistaken) apart from the route they came on, only substitute into existing services. And since there's no service that exists like that in HMA, it isn't feasible. That's the whole reason for the top and tail configuration, despite it being an uncommon occurrence irl. The more I read into whats going on with the BR101 and the IC coaches, the more im starting to think that this was poorly planned out. DTG really needs to consider delaying this release so they can add a cab car, otherwise this DLC will only ever achieve a fraction of its true potential.
Ask Dovetail... I mean, remember that original Hagen-Siegen route didn´t have control cars just the coaches in two liveries. NEC didn´t have them either. They were added later as separate content. Why? No idea, but that´s the history of this game collection. About the new layers sure it´s possible. BR294 and BR363 add new layers. They don´t replace anything existing but create totally new services. Everything is possible in game if they want, as they are the creators. But they also need to get money out of the efforts, which is completely normal as well. Cheers
That original 101 was actually made by Kuju, not dovetail back when it was called Railworks (2009), this is widely considered to be a very very poor model of the 101. A separate Train Simulator DLC was then later released by a third party called Virtual Railroads which did include a cab car (and a 101 with better physics, audio, everything basically), which they sold via their website. They later then sold a version of this DLC on steam which didn't include a cab car (no idea why the version they decided to sell on steam didn't include a cab car).
This is because those trains come with those layers on those specific routes. Which is all fine, but if you want to use that loco on other routes, that's where the problem lies. They can only be used as substitutes. Since the BR101 will be tied to the HRR route, it will only really add additional services there. Theres portals on either ends of that route too, so for the train to be in a normal push-pull config is most likely. However if its to be used on HMA...well...Munich is a terminating station, meaning the trains will have to turn around somehow. Again, this is the reason for the top and tail configuration. As far as we know, it'll be like this for Munich and other similar routes with an end point. Its made worse by the fact that they've never retroactively added layers and additional services. So we as the players are unable to do those services you've described, where the loco would drive to the other end and couple up. It was a missed opportunity
As said above it's both the fact that this loco will only able to go on hrr AND it won't have a cab car. The fact for me is: What is the point of spending 13.99 for a loco, part of an incomplete trainset, only usable on 1 route (which is too short and doesn't allow the loco to reach its max operational speed of 200 km/h), why bother? Those services will just be like the 146.3+Dostos service, the only difference would be skipping 2 or 3 stops. So those two facts toghter mean this DLC, for me, has bad value for money, hopefully Hamburg-Lubeck will change this, and give this loco a "proper" route to run. At least the cab car could make a more diverse driving experience (even on HRR), and just feel like you get more for the money you spend. As I said, if it could run at least on RRO, or on Ham-Lub or include the cab car I will probabily buy it on sale, or even at full price.
Well get these numbers. By now more than half of the people on this forum who have shown interest in this loco by entering this poll won't buy or at least are deterred from buying at full price only because the cab car is missing. So instead of all the fans of this locomotive (at least the vocal minority on this forum) buying for 13,99, a big portion (48 of 87) won't buy or buy later. Do the maths and see how much profit gets lost or delayed. Now they have the portion of people who are not vocal and the people who are not active in the forums at all. Alot of these don't get the information that we have though and might buy regardless - only to find that the loco is missing its end. Sure there is no way to predict accurately how this DLC will fare at this point, but my guess is that even if it does sell relatively well it will get mediocre reviews as soon as train fans get their hands on it and wonder why they can't set off on HMA Timetable with this loco and where the control car is. When they say loco DLC don't do well and they can't either put the effort in to giving this one the attention it deserves (just with each other loco, as they say on stream, each one of them is a favorite of someone playing the game) or get the necessary material to do it justice, one has to wonder why doing it in the first place. And on a side note, loco DLC would do way better if they weren't tied to a single route, that I guarantee. There were already people who were excited for BR 101 but lost their interest the moment it was announced for HRR, because they don't have it. As is the everlasting discussion with BR 182 which many people would like to play but are not interested in Rapid Transit at all. You see that each and every of these points make the audience smaller considering other loco DLC already had problems with it. These are the numbers DTG should look at. I mean come on, surely most of us complaining will buy it at least at a later date, but that sour taste will never leave the DLC. P.S. regarding the BR Blue pack, it was already confirmed on stream even though they had the 52 via West Somerset, the one for the DLC was completely built up anew and is not a skin/livery pack.
That's the problem I think, there is already a small market for loco DLCs, and a even smaller portion is bothered by the cab car and route selection. What is smaller, the amount of people that will either buy regardless/on sale/whatever or the people that will actually never buy the DLC because it is incomplete? If they took that decision clearly it's more cost and time effective to create incomplete loco DLCs because at the end it's a 101 and we will buy it anyway...
Guys I have nothing to do with DTG... hahaha . I just gave my own opinion and I understand them if they don´t include the control cab, that´s all I wanted to say. I´m not in favour of them nor against them in this decission. They have people dedicated to decide if a product will be a ruin or a top seller, and it´s not me. I go to the market and buy what I like as any other plain customer does. Cheers
1) Leaving off the cab car was a mistake (although I'd be happy to see German passenger coaches that aren't Dostos!) In my view, DTG would have been (note the tense) better advised to include the cab car and bump the price to cover the cost. 2) Layering: which German locos currently layer into other routes- as in, have their own new timetable added, not merely replacing other rolling stock on the same services?
If I understood the question correctly: BR155 adds coal services on RSN BR363 adds shunting services and the otherwise unavailable cement runs with the 185 BR204 adds shunting services and allows to access the non electrified areas on MSB BR182 adds DoStos services to RT
I think class 31 also adds extra services (cement) to Tees Valley. One important thing about layers is that they are not fixed, meaning that if you replace one loco by other the cloned layer can still be changed a bit. They clone them simply cause it´s easier and faster to produce as the original services act as templates for new ones but you could perfectly modify the cloned layer and add new instructions to it, provided that it still remains compatible with the whole day timetable. For instance if your track slot in the cloned layer is going to be occupied by you, and only you, from station A to B and next train won´t occupy it, let´s say 10 minutes later than you leave B, you can still use those 10 minutes to do extra things between A and B that were not included in the original layer. This includes any shunting with your cloned train, for instance. But in a busy line, like a commuter one, you most likely don´t have any room to add new instructions as trains are entering the blocks faster and you may end with route incompatibilities that destroy the whole day timetable. Therefore it must stay as a cloned layer only with maybe some adjustments to the arriving time to stations according to the dynamics of the new train you used. That´s why Adam said in the streams that they only replace trains with similar dynamics. Indeed I think that´s the real background of implementing multiple 24h schedules, as at the end, the more DLCs you add, the more traffic you have and the less room to include any future DLCs in the routes. There must be a point where the effort to adjust and check the old 24h schedules is not worthy or even it´s not possible to add more trains due to signalling constraints (trains would run with yellow aspects all the time) and it´s better to create new ones from scratch. We are talking about hundreds of services in some routes for a 24h cycle. Cheers
Which is all well and good, but not, I think, what we wanted, which is a reproduction of the RW timetable.
After all, if they layer 423s into SKA, they should be operating the S-Bahn schedule, not replacing Dostos on the RBs and REs.
Notice how for all of those examples, the locomotive DLC only adds service layers to the route it is originally tied to. I think that is the point being made earlier in the thread. Cheers
Yes the 423s should under the db S-Bahn koln livery. It's baffling that it takes a very long time to make a route and do research etc and yet they put the incorrect train (DB BR 422) on the route. That simply makes zero sense
not necessarily, they could do simmilar to the NEC SW100R and put a cab car with another loco (like A Euroshed as they have the models for the body already)
So now we have a Euroshed at the rear of the intercity services? Why on earth would you want that? Eurosheds don't run on any DB intercity services. If we're gonna go with completely wrong formations why don't they just glue half a TGV cab car model onto one of the intercity coach models and call it a day haha.
That's fine, but this message was just unnecessary. I have absolutely no interest in US-stuff but I do not abuse their discussion by saying "Whatever, your big american locos are just not interesting, bye".
Sorry, where did I “abuse” the discussion? I answered the question posted. Is there a rule where I’m not allowed to post which I missed, who gave you control as to who can and cannot post? Have a great day.
I would wait for the official DTG statement. I am mainly interested in IC wagons, because they run in other colors at Czech Railways.
At the very least, give us the Scenario Editor + Livery Editor option of doing Austrian Eurocities with the 182 and these coaches.
Bit I doubt it will, no Loco add on has ever been revisited to include any more content. They would have to make a route for it and again, no route has included a train that is available seperately. From my experience, it's a now or never deal with this one.
no, I mean do what they did with the NEC cab car and bundle it for £12 with another loco (e.g. A Euroshed)
No, it worked on NEC because the ACS-64 was the stoco loco. If you don't have the 101 and buy this Euroshed + cab car DLC, how would you drive the cab car services with no loco?
Looking forward to that! But this only works with a consists editor or with built-in substitution. I hope DTG gives us this opportunity
You have a good point with the MP36, but I can think of two majors reason why they made what they as much as they did. First they had direct access to Mp36 and the F40PH consists, so they had plenty of reference material to make them, which is something they don't have with the cab car. Also Peninsula Corridor is the fan favorite US route in the game by a mile, and was included with the Deluxe edition. So it likely felt there was a bigger market for add on locos than normal, thus making the extra effort worth it. In comparison HRR's not a overly popular German route, so might not be worth putting in the extra effort. Now BR Heavy Freight pack I don't think's a good example, first of they didn't do two new engines, only the 40's new. The Class 08 was a part of Tees Valley originally, the liveries' new but it's otherwise the same engine. Also passenger cars probably take more effort than freight cars as you need to model full interiors, the interiors with freight cars, assuming they have them in the first place, are very simple and aren't gonna take much time. And BR Blue? Again I don't think's a good example. You don't know what they're adding yet outside of the Class 52, and they already made that for WSR, so I would assume it's using that as a base. Even if they're "rebuilding" it I would assume that such a term is just meaning that they're reworking the model with new features, and maybe making the model more accurate, not that it's built from scratch with nothing from the WSR model. Anything else we don't know, maybe they'll make all new stock, but my suspicion is we'll see the wagons reused from other 80's content. In particular probably the Mk. 1 & 2 coaches from WSR & NTP, probably some freight stock as well, but don't know enough to list any in particular. Sure they'll probably have new liveries, but making a new livery for a existing piece of stock isn't anywhere near the same amount of effort as making something from scratch. The only thing I suspect will truly be new would be the Class 166 equivalent, seeing as I believe others mention that there was a different EMU used in the area than the 101. Yeah, I honestly don't get why people were expecting it on multiple routes, unless there's services it can sub in to you don't tend to see DLC be on more than one route. The only exception I can think of is the East Coastway charter service, but that's one single bonus service, nothing really meaty like I assume people want for the 101 on say HMA. Your first point's correct, and I suspect fact that will remain the case until DTG removes the route requirement from locos. However your second point isn't quite right, the 182's in a upcoming route, and that is a stand alone loco. Also there's some examples of stock that have been reused after being DLC, for example one of the cars from the GP40-2 was reused in Peninsula Corridor. And there's also the fact that while it hasn't happen much with TSW, it's happened a number of times in TS Classic.
It would be great for the DB BR 182 locomotive to pull IC wagons. Then I will be able to create a whole fast train of Czech Railways in the editor.
We were expecting that because IC is the only "missing piece" of german railways, even if we don't always get the correct kind of rolling stock we have: S-Bahn: 422; 423 RE/RB: DoStos+143/146; 425; Talent2 ICE: BR406 and 403 IC is the only thing missing from HRR, RRO, HMA and RT. While I was not expecting it to add layers to all the routes, the route it "should" be added, is HMA, and from what Matt said, it won't come to HMA BECAUSE of the Cab Car (and not the other way around). The reason the community believes HMA is more appropriate: More IC services operates on HMA than HRR HRR has a max speed of 160 km/h and doesn't have LZB, making the 101 services the same as the already existing 146.3+Dosto service, just missing 2 stops HRR from end to end with just a stop in Essen would take you ~20\25 minutes to do What we are asking is, since the cab car is the cause the 101 won't come to HMA, to take more time to create it and allow the loco to be used on a decent route. Scenario planner doesn't count. Of course they won't do it, and because of that I won't buy it, but of course a lot of people would buy it anyway, so why bother to create the cab car...
I forgot about the BR 182, but my point still stands. The Br 182 we will be getting in Hamburg - Lübeck is the MRCE version and not the DB one. It also has the possibility of a new cab, much like the ICE 3 had a different cab compared to the ICE 3M. So while it is possible, I think it is very unlikely that we will ever see an IC cab car if it's not in this DLC.
I think they must have seen the demand for an IC Cabcar this weekend, if it isn't on their to-do list by now I would be very surprised.
The problem stands, you release a separate cab car DLC which should use a loco DLC to drive. What you end up with is either a DLC which can be only bought if you have BOTH HRR and the BR101 (restricting how many people would buy the DLC) or boundle it to another DB IC loco and allow the 101 to substitute it, both very unlikely, so I see it as a case of now or never.
"The ES 64 U2 is an electrical two system locomotive (AC) which was designed for heavy cargo and for high speed passenger traffic, with an output of up to 6.4 MW, the ES 64 U2 is still fit to compete with the latest modern powerful models in the certified countries. As of today this is still the basis for its optimum time-table design and the guarantee of short travel times." -MRCE website Looks like they only have one variant which can do both services. Also it would not be a new thing for DTG to use the wrong version of the loco to haul pax/freight, since technically the RT version was a passenger use variant and not used for freight.
One has to wonder why we can't use the 182 with Dostos on other routes, as it was its purpose with the dlc it came with, yet we can use it for freight runs, which it surely does irl but was not designed for with the dlc Maybe the mrce can do both at least?
I was hoping it would substitute both the old 182 and the 101... Same for the 112+DoStos, I was expecting it to substitute the old 146 and 143 At this point I don't expect anything about substituting and adding layers for any content, particularly substituting PresCo rolling stock.
The DB 182 was used for freight for most of it's early life with DB, they were even subbed into Railion at one stage before all 25 locos whet to DOSTO services out of Berlin.
Matt said on an old stream, that the 182s while they were modified for hauling the DoStos (they were fitted with the door controls and destination display IIRC) they were never used for freight, and when the 182 were no longer needed as pax locos they were either converted back to freight or sold to other railways. So seeing a BR182 in DB red with a destination display hauling freight is not realistic, yet they decided to do it for gameplay and variety's sake and I think it was the right decision, and I hope they will do the same for the MRCE 182, especially if it will be significantly better than the old 182.
IIRC, the 182 (Siemens Eurosprinter ES 64U2) was designed for the Austrian OBB as a universal loco ("Taurus," Class 1016). The DB did not originally order any, because they (meaning DB Cargo/Railion) were purchasing the ES 64F heavy freight variant (BR 189) - DB Regio at the time was purchasing the Adtranz BR 146 as its main passenger engine. However, it turned out the 189 did not meet Austrian track force restrictions, so DB changed the order for the last 25 64Fs to the Austrian-model 64U2s instead- principally for running freight down to Austria and beyond. However, since the 182/64U2 was a universal loco, it had door controls, HEP and (I believe) a destination board built in from the factory. And when faced with a passenger loco shortage then DB Regio did borrow or lease several of them temporarily from DBS.
