I'm Worried About Train Sim World 2

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by Exxan, Jan 20, 2021.

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  1. Exxan

    Exxan New Member

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    Hi. I remember dovetail employees writing on this forum that train sims is very important to them and that they will definitely not abandon tsw. I have been playing tsw 2020 from the very beginning and have spent a lot of money on dlc. When I found out that tsw 2020 will not be supported and that the developers are releasing tsw 2, I broke down. Dear dovetail employees, what guarantee do I have that tsw 2 will not be unsupported in a few months? I am afraid to buy dlc for tsw 2 to not lose money like with tsw 2020. I personally don't see any differences between tsw 2020 and tsw 2, although the developers wrote that they have to release a new version of the game because this one uses an improved engine. And it doesn't show that. The game (compared to train simulator) has no Steam profile integration and like tsw 2020 there is only a profile set up in the game (which gives multiplayer concerns if it ever happens), and there are still major stuttering issues. I love the game and I love the trains, but I'm worried about the dovetail and the fact that I might get scammed again in a few months.
     
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  2. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Why should you have lost money? ALL your TSW 2020 DLC has been ported to TSW2- FREE. You can download it for nothing, if you have the old TSW2020 version.
     
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  3. KiwiLE

    KiwiLE Well-Known Member

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    Do not feed the troll.
     
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  4. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    Not ALL our DLC has been preserved. NEC + 2 loco DLSs didn't get ported over to TSW2. If there'll ever be a TSW3, which DLC would end up like NEC and not get preserved either?

    While I don't think things are as bad as OP implies, lets not pretend everything got ported to the new TSW version just fine. And lets not pretend it can not happen again.
     
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  5. kuchen0125

    kuchen0125 Active Member

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    As I can remember, Dovetail Games said in their Q&A that they don't want to release TSW3 in 2021.
     
  6. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    I know. They don't have plans for a new TSW version. Doesn't say much though. Pretty sure TSW2 wasn't planned when they initially released TSW1. Pretty sure they didn't plan NEC not being preserved when they released NEC and the associated loco DLCs.

    So, when, for whatever reason, DTG needs to port a whole new version of TSW, we don't know whether any, some, or all DLC will be preserved. Which isn't a good thing, considering people build up collections worth hundreds if not thousands of dollars/pounds/euros/etc over several years.
     
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  7. erg73

    erg73 Well-Known Member

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    I do not understand your reflection. Why do you say you would lose your money? Can't you start your copy of TSW 2020 and play with all the content you bought?
    I do that when I want to drive at NEC, for example. It hasn't been disabled so I haven't lost any of the content I bought.
     
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  8. kuchen0125

    kuchen0125 Active Member

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    But you should keep in mind that, for example, SCS Software brought out a Euro Truck Simulator 2 and to date no ETS 3
     
  9. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    Nobody has been scammed. The upgrade to TSW2 was all handled very honestly. Nobody lost any of their content in TSW2020. It was a shame that all support for it ended but they did bring all* the content into TSW2 and will continue to improve it there. They have stated that all DLC will continue to be useable in future versions of TSW and there is no reason not to believe them. If upgrades are needed to DLC for it to work then those updates will take place. Their whole business model for TSW relies on it.

    *NEC didn’t make it but hold on to your hats, it might make a miraculous return to TSW2. Watch this space, as they say.

    Above all, nobody should be worrying about the future of TSW to the point of a breakdown. Take a deep breath and enjoy the content you have, buy what you think you will like now, and don’t worry about what is coming.
     
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  10. Articuno

    Articuno Well-Known Member

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    In 11 years of rail simulator -> railworks -> train simulator + 3 years of TSW1, DTG never charged a new price for the yearly update, and I think they would not have done it this time for TSW, had it been in any way avoidable. the update in the unreal engine made it necessary, and they still tried to port all the old stuff over and they have said why they couldn't do NEC. They have been very honest with this and even started releasing a roadmap which included bug fixes and future updates. I don't think there is any need to worry about the future of TSW.
     
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  11. Exxan

    Exxan New Member

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    What? I'm not a troll.
    What a "friendly" community!
     
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  12. Mattty May

    Mattty May Guest

    The way to look at TSW 2 is that it was an upgrade for £24.99, which provided a minimum of two new routes to everyone and a third route for console players. That’s an excellent deal. Not only did you get those two routes, the new engine definitely improved performance and introduced adhesion features, plus all DLC apart from that relating to NEC was preserved at no additional cost. NEC wasn’t ported as DTG said it would be easier (and quicker) to rebuild the route from scratch than to preserve it. We may well see NEC in the next route releases as DTG seems committed to offering an increased level of US content.

    I struggle to empathise with the OP. What has the OP actually lost?
     
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  13. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    It's true that nothing was truly lost, as I still have access to TSW2020 NEC. However, as someone who has built up a large collection of DLC for Train Simulator over the years, I expected to do the same for TSW. One of the biggest advantages is that there's always backwards compability, and any loco & route, no matter how old, can be used in combination with any other loco & route, no matter how new.

    NEC was an exception on the strategy DTG used for years. And thus was an unexpected move, at least for me.

    NEC is enough reason for me to not fully trust all DLC will continue to be useable in future versions. I also cannot remember DTG ever making such a promise. Ever since the release of TSW2 DTG became much more careful in the promises they make.

    I guess it's likely we'll see more of NEC at some point in future. The question remains how DTG handles stuff with owners of TSW2020's NEC DLC and associated loco add-ons.

    Oh I'm not worried about the future of TSW. It's still the best train simulation game I've been able to find. There's a steady output of new content, DTG hiring some new people, DTG allocating resources to updating old content, and more third parties are jumping on board. I'd say things are going pretty well for TSW.

    I'm not really worrying, but I got triggered by someone making the false claim that *ALL* TSW2020 DLC got ported over to TSW2. That simply isn't true. And, as far as I know, no-one made the promise it won't happen again. That's not worries, that's just facts. :P

    TSW still is an awesome game. Looking forward to the next batch of DLC announcements on the roadmap. :)
     
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  14. CowBoyWolf

    CowBoyWolf Well-Known Member

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    they did confirm something about TSW would release this year
     
  15. Mattty May

    Mattty May Guest

    We should all know, based on what DTG has said publicly, that before Steam arrives on TSW 2 there’ll be another engine upgrade.

    I think DTG has learned a lot from what happened in transitioning from TSW 2020 to TSW 2 and they’ve openly said they don’t plan on repeating that experience. They’ve also not ruled out a TSW 3.

    DTG has also gone from saying that all preserved content will remain ‘as is’ to setting up a whole new team to update preserved content. They’re also developing new DLC for preserved content, which is very welcome.
     
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  16. a.paice

    a.paice Well-Known Member

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    You’re being a bit silly. Everyone gets to keep what DLC they pay for on TSW and they can play it forever.

    If they choose to upgrade to TSW 2 then not only do they get some bargain routes and quality gameplay upgrades, they also get most of their past DLC upgraded for free.
    Quite frankly it’s a bargain and a good show of faith from DTG.

    If you don’t want to upgrade then you still have TSW and nobody will take it away from you.
    If you do want to upgrade then you get all the benefits but DTG are under no obligation to keep improving it.
    If you bought a new laptop you wouldn’t expect the computer company to keep upgrading the hardware for it free of charge to keep it modern.

    If you are disappointed by the quality of the DLC’s then I suggest you watch the gameplay streams before deciding to buy anything in future.
     
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  17. Tigert1966

    Tigert1966 Well-Known Member

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    I‘ve got far more things to worry about.

    Everything I bought for TSW2020 still works in TSW2020. I can still play it on the platform I bought it for. As a bonus I can play most of them in TSW2. Thanks to the preservation team a lot of these will have some of the newer features added. There was no scamming involved.

    Whilst free updates are nice. I respect the fact that DTG have to make money. If that means I have to pay £25 in a couple of years for TSW3 and get a couple of extra routes with it, then so be it. Even a yearly release only works out a £2 a month.
     
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  18. Rudolf

    Rudolf Well-Known Member

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    I don't think you are a troll, but a number of people may feel annoyed, because we had this type of discussion a lot half a year ago. I think most people are far more positive now, so you clearly missed something. It might be better not to put such a comment here as e new reader, but take some time to find out what has been said and how the game develops. If you follow a bit more close what is going on, you may conclude there is not much reason to be worried. There are about 80 people that make a living with this game, that is quite a lot. There will be new content every month and a lot of work is done to improve the core game, existing DLC. It does not look like a poor company without means that is about to abandon this development.

    During the last six months they managed to improve a lot in the relationship with the customers, so I am quite optimistic about this game.

    I recommend you to have a look at the roadmap and watch some of the discussions at the streams, next one will be next Tuesday to get a better feel on what is going on.
     
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  19. geloxo

    geloxo Well-Known Member

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    I think the post is well put here, or at least I can understand that feeling. Despite the planned improvements and the good intentions from DTG (which I honestly don´t have any doubts about and I appreciate their work), the facts are also important and customers opinions like this one are important as well as without customers there´s no game at all, no matter how passionate about trains the creators are. For sure I value that, cause it´s much better to have people creating the content which also enjoy the content themselves. This is a really good added value.

    But the facts are that NEC + 2 DLCs are deleted from TSW2 (so that is lost money), the whole preserved content is not fully usable as sounds are not implemented properly and the preserved content won´t be updated to the new game features. The preserved collection discontinuation was announced to happen (including the removal of those DLCs) but for instance nobody was expecting it was going to be working partially only. Now they are fixing it but from a formal point of view they said it was going to be compatible and as of today (5 months after launch) it´s not really the case. In terms of overall customer satisfaction this is an obstacle now that most of us have to deal with as preserved collection is the main portion of the game content today.

    Cheers
     
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  20. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Here we go again, it is about time we had another thread about the editor!

    A scam suggests you were cheated out of money or property? If that is the case then I would inform the police or trading standards. I don't know why people use off the cuff phrases like scam and rip-off as it doesn't help their argument to be honest?

    DTG have been very open over the last few months and you can't say you wouldn't have known what the release of TSW2 entailed. The fact is you can use every piece of DLC you owned in TSW1, in TSW1, therefore you have lost nothing!
     
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  21. mclitke

    mclitke Well-Known Member

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    TSW2020 still works doesn't it? So you got what you paid for and if you upgrade to TSW2 you get an upgrade for a reasonable price and get to carry over most of your owned content. If you don't see differences between tsw2020 and Tsw2 that is on you I am afraid, but likewise your decision whether you deem it worth.

    But what is the difference between playing battleforge and buying a lot of card packs and tsw2020 and some dlc? Well the difference is that the battleforge servers were shut down. At least you can still play tsw2020.

    This simulator has no live service going on apart from new DLC and you have to expect that games don't get further support at some point...
     
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  22. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    How is it lost money? I could still load up NEC on TSW1 until I uninstalled it last month!
     
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  23. geloxo

    geloxo Well-Known Member

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    It´s lost money since I can´t use it in TSW2. That´s the meaning of the sentence.

    Cheers
     
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  24. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    But that is an incorrect statement, you have the choice to keep it installed in TSW1 so it is not lost money, it works in the condition you purchased it!

    And the OP wasn't well put, not when the word scam is bandied about when the OP either doesn't know what it means or doesn't care!
     
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  25. mclitke

    mclitke Well-Known Member

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    That is absolutely wrong, you paid for a dlc that is playable for the game tsw 2020.
    You are not entitled to any more. Reserved content is a bonus that we got and DTG was at no point obliged to port the routes over. Saying you lost money is simply false.
     
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  26. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    Preserved content is the only good decision to make for a game/simulator where people will spend lots of money over several years to build up a collection.
     
  27. mclitke

    mclitke Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely true and I am glad they did this step, yet it does not change the fact that you don't lose money if they don't port over old content to a new game...

    Heck there are even a lot of examples where you can buy maps/characters from predecessors without getting them for free if you own these already.
     
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  28. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

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    I bought Flight Sim World, it was discontinued without replacement, yet I have not lost any money on it... all the DLC I bought still works, spent many hours flying even after it was discontinued. Just recently removed it from my system to give more room for FS2020, but can still re-install from Steam. So nothing lost from that title being discontinued.

    Still have TSW2020 on my system, not sure why, but it is still installed, works fine - can still use all the DLC I bought for TSW2020 and EVEN BETTER, most of that DLC can be used inTSW2 which was a very low price for not only a base platform upgrade but two new routes. ‘Twas a no brainer to pay the upgrade price which was about the same as a single route was for TSW2020.

    Anyway, I never look at the cost of software as an investment... it is an expenditure for entertainment. If you can still enjoy the title, you have lost nothing,
     
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  29. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    Imagine having the annual release this year and remade NEC brought in as part of that (probably deluxe edition, so there are two US routes in it).
     
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  30. geloxo

    geloxo Well-Known Member

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    I think the meaning is lost money here is a matter of common sense but if you still want to turn it around, feel free guys.

    For me removing NEC was a mistake. If we owned the route we should have had the choice to use it or not in TSW2, as the rest of the preserved content. But the fact that together with it two perfectly working and well done rolling stock DLCs were also gone is even worse, specially when one was alrady included in Sand Patch in TSW1.

    I support many of the things DTG does (as of today I own all published DLCs indeed) but I´m not going to say I´m happy about that decision just because I had purchased the rest of things they published. Preserved collection was much more important than game itself for two reasons: without it game would only had 3 routes and a reduced set of rolling stock upon launch and it´s a way to materialize the committment with customers. Our loyalty, so to say. If no care about the past investment is taken, what can we expect about future? More abandoned content? That´s the key point indeed.

    The given message was that the base game value (which is 20 times lower than the rest of DLCs including the preserved content) was much more important for the company, while for many customers it was just the opposite (preserved content was much more important due to its purchasing costs in the past). We were simply not in the same page.

    Cheers
     
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  31. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    I think it was a miscalculation to move to a new base game when they did, especially when you look at the problems with getting TSW2 to work fully on PS4 and Xbox one (HMA layers, general performance).

    Now, in my opinion, up ahead is a point they are ideally going to want to discontinue supporting PS4 and Xbox one consoles so that they can make routes that work perfectly well on the new consoles and PC, these hardwares are better aligned to each other. Otherwise not only is PC being held back by consoles (an old topic) but PC will then be held back by old consoles (a variation on the topic) and new consoles will be held back by old consoles (a new topic).

    In hindsight, would have made sense to start TSW2 here, where there is a clear line between content that supports PS4/XBONE and content that does not. However hindsight is 20/20 and few people saw the gap between the new generation and the old being as big as it is, it is far bigger than the jump in the last generation. Before we had a lot of games that were PS3/PS4, this time I think games that are PS4/PS5 will not be made for much longer.

    What will happen? How will they do this without another change in the base-game or can they simply say that from now on we cannot guarantee future content will work properly on old consoles? Its a bit of a minefield. I do not think they will want to go through the conversion of the old content again though, I think that has taken longer and more resources than anticipated, particularly as they clearly did not anticipate the problems that would be created and then require further resources to fix in the preservation process.

    It is a good thing that the older routes are in need of work to catch up, the rate of progress in the game has caused this. There are new features in almost every route that are obviously absent in older items, even SKA with its blank PIS looks a bit odd and that is in the TSW2 base game! If they were making routes for a year or two and they all looked the same people would soon wonder what was going on so it is good that there is this rate of change in capabilities, but it creates more work to keep all content current.

    This is why cut-off points in content pipelines are a unfortunate necessity, but their placement must be carefully thought through so people don't feel they are having to buy something twice, or losing something they had, or that their collections are now in several incompatible parts.
     
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  32. geloxo

    geloxo Well-Known Member

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    I can perfectly understand the situation. This kind of decissions are not easy cause at the end they are not popular and they take many efforts. But nobody forced them to expand their market into multiple consoles types and PC. If you want to expand market (which is normal) at least don´t put the result on the customer shoulders if the efforts were not well balanced or were underestimated, cause this can cause this kind of criticism and frustration, as this is not the first post about this topic we see. When you add it to the list of things which are highly unpopular such as the ancient bugs still not resolved or being replicated over an over even on new routes, it´s hard to smile when you open the game, even if you still enjoy playing with it.

    Nobody wants anything bad for the company (at least I don´t want it myself). I just want them to be healthy and profitable because they deserve it for their efforts and also because this ensures I will be able to enjoy my hobby during many more years.

    Cheers
     
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  33. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    How has anyone lost anything, by not getting something they didn't have before?

    NEC was a unique case. As DTG have said many times, it was the first route built under Unreal/TSW, they were making it up as they went along, and under the hood it was held together with duct tape and baling wire, hence the impracticability of a port - and to remake it from scratch and then give the new version away free as "preserved" content would be fiscally absurd.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2021
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  34. Geth_2234

    Geth_2234 Well-Known Member

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    I can understand your concerns and they are genuine concerns as there may be other developers out there who wouldent have gone and put work into preserving DLCs to work with a completely new game but in the case of DTG and as other members have mentioned they have been very honest with the community and I can’t imagine it was an easy decision for them to make and I’m sure they would have weighed up the pros and cons and figured it was best this way. In my opinion I do not feel as if I’ve been ripped off if anything I feel rewarded getting 2 brand new routes and a brand new engine with a lot of potential and the ability to keep my TSW 1 routes for the price of 1 route. So I wouldent stress over it because it’s only early days and as DTG say there is no plans for a TSW 3 and I’m sure there are plenty more routes, locos and features to clams for TSW 2
     
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  35. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    It does beg the question as to why dtg upgrade the engine and create a "new game" if the result was that last gen consoles are gonna have major performance issues on some routes and even game crashes. SKA, HMA for example. Not to mention that preserved collection came in a bug riddled mess and some major issues have still not been fixed 5 months after the game came out like the audio issues on several trains. The lirr m7 is pratically unplayable because the audio cuts out so I agree that dtg did miscalculate when making this game. It's a good game but there are still problems with preserved collection and I hope they never do that again. It's not fair for people who payed for preserved collection and for new customers buying these routes with all these problems
     
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  36. Geth_2234

    Geth_2234 Well-Known Member

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    Fair point made there are a few issues with the preserved collection routes some more than others which my only hope is DTG will fix these and none of them get overlooked however theres pros and cons GWE for example did have a few issues which are being ironed out now but the sounds were a big improvement on TSW2020, that being said it seems preserved collection was a bigger challenge than previously thought.
     
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  37. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I just hope it doesn't happen again.
     
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  38. Lunar_Twisted

    Lunar_Twisted Well-Known Member

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    I don’t get how you felt ripped off because you still can play your routes and locos you brought in TSW 1 and play them in TSW 2. Yes I was aware that NEC and it’s DLC locos wasn’t going to be ported over to TSW 2 but you can play them in TSW 1 at any given time. I brought TSW back in November 2018 and brought some DLC’s overtime. NEC was a “ok” route but didn’t brought the DLC loco. I think it was my number one played route right behind LIRR. I recently brought TSW 2 on sale last week and uninstalled TSW 1 and I never looked back. It was great for DTG to allow me and many others to continue to play routes we all enjoy in TSW 2 despite the bugs in the preserved collection. I wasn’t to bother with NEC not being ported to TSW 2 as I didn’t get it’s DLC that was associated with the route. So no money lost for me. However, I don’t feel ripped off at all since I can play the content I brought in TSW 1 and play them in TSW 2 and the 3 new routes were a bonus. If you want to continue to play NEC and it’s DLC locos, then keep TSW 1 installed. You can buy TSW 2 and download the routes and locos you brought from TSW 1 for free.
     
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  39. Reventloff

    Reventloff Well-Known Member

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    I guess they could just release TSW2 with only a pair of new routes without any preserved collection at all. That way there would be no any reflections on "lost money" or "scam", etc. Just two separate games TSW2020 and new one TSW2. But Im personally glad to have more content (including some old preserved) and more potential layers in one game.
     
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  40. martschuffing

    martschuffing Well-Known Member

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    Am I wrong in believing that there wasn't going to be a preserved collection initially and that we would have to keep TSW2020 installed to use them? And it was only because of the backlash from the community that it happened?

    And as Reventloff states above there is no question of losing money or it being a scam!
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2021
  41. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

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    No, that was never the case. What you may be recalling is that DTG had not originally planned to make Preserved Collection content compatible with the Scenario Planner or Livery Designer, but decided to add compatibility with the aforementioned tool close to launch, and Livery Designer compatibility was then confirmed several months later. DTG would not have considered leaving old content behind, at least as much as they can, because their business model thrives on consumers being able to expand the base platform as much as possible. Restricting access to some DLC in one game and some DLC in another would fragment the user base and would have been a poor decision from a business perspective.

    Cheers
     
  42. martschuffing

    martschuffing Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for clarifying that perception. Many goings to bed since distort an old fella's recall!
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2021
  43. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

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    Ha, Ich kenne das Gefühl. Ich sollte jetzt auch schlafen. Keine Sorgen!

    Cheers
     
  44. Redbus

    Redbus Well-Known Member

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    In a recent stream I posed the question to Sam on future compatibility of preserved content in future versions of TSW, and he replied that all DLC will work or be made to. Good news and essential for a game that encourages collection. :)
     
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  45. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    In keeping with the tradition of TS Classic, where all DLC however old still works with TS2021
     
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  46. AVeryFatElf

    AVeryFatElf Well-Known Member

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    Here we are again with TSW3 - whats your thoughts on having to buy a new game to access future DLC? Do you still play TSW?
     
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  47. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I'll try it off gamepass but Im not spending a penny on tsw 3.
     
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  48. Reventloff

    Reventloff Well-Known Member

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    Nah, not going to buy TSW3 any day soon, as I still have lots to do in TSW2 (have some purchased-but-not-properly-played-yet DLCs). Besides to be honest Im not at all convinced on value added of the new iteration so far. New menus and ui, dynamic weather, volumetric skies, test track, etc...? Thats nice but not too important to me in train sim, and the graphics seems to remain the same.
    When I see new content arrive (really interesting routes, maybe new countries, and new locos, maybe more steam locos) then I will think about switching to TWS3.
     
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  49. davidh0501

    davidh0501 Well-Known Member

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    Watching the stream I felt the graphics had generally improved.
    Whether it was the new lighting, less noticeable pop ups or the smoother fps.
    Barstow has never looked so good.

    The next thing they need to do is pay attention to their use of colour.
    Liveries in particular are far too garish and new looking.
    Machines that are out in the open for 90% of their time should not look as if they are fresh out of the paint shop.
    (Feels as if I need some filter stops on the screen.)
     
  50. redtrainz

    redtrainz Active Member

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    That could also have to do with licensing. On one of the Boston Sprinter streams, they said that Amtrak wanted a clean, as-new livery on their trains without weathering. DB seems to allow weathering.
     

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