South Eastern High Speed - A Rushed Made Route?

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by londonmidland, Jan 22, 2021.

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  1. SprattyHeath

    SprattyHeath Well-Known Member

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    I was also pretty excited for it too, it gave a change of pace of the usual slow moving British service that TSW currently has :)
     
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  2. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    The fact is this DLC is incomplete, and not up to the standards of previous TSW routes.

    There’s some really nice looking parts of the route (Kent side) as well as detail in the signalling system and its associated assets, as seen in the screenshots below.
    B72CF007-BECC-442C-BF54-C367E3990466.png 4FD0C191-FCBC-49EB-9215-DE2D02FEDD39.png

    Then we have the HS1 section and London side, which is the complete opposite in terms of scenery. There’s literally a building right next to the railway, unguarded, half placed into the ground... Pictures shown below.
    334811F5-C0BB-4F5B-AD72-7163C9567197.jpeg

    This makes me believe they started building the route from the Kent side, as it’s a lot more detailed, and ran out of time to finish off the London side. The detail and asset placement is a lot more simplistic and bare on this end of the route.
     
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  3. Bryer

    Bryer Well-Known Member

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    When I made my post earlier, I'd read through the majority of relevant posts and came to the conclusion in some cases that some people within the thread where being particularly negative without playing it themselves or giving valid reason for doing so.

    I apologise to anyone in this thread that thinks my opinion of this is incorrect or wrong.

    I apologise for my use of the word toxic when describing a thread where I've read the same person posting the same kind of post in multiple route reveal related threads, having been here for most of Train Sim World's life cycle and having been a lurker on the boards.

    I personally won't be giving my opinions on the route until it is released.

    However, I don't play the game on PC, so can't roll over and play the TS2021 version of the route, I own it in my Steam library, but have mainly moved playing the game to console for an easy life so to speak. If you don't like what they are creating on the TSW 2 version of the route you don't have to buy it, you could as many of you state go and play the TS 2021 version until they either release a revised version or you decide that you want to play the TSW 2 version.

    Anyway take care all. Stay safe and don't forget to wear those masks!
     
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  4. RobSkip

    RobSkip Well-Known Member

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  5. KiwiLE

    KiwiLE Well-Known Member

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    As a developers patch was shown, I have to say shots 1 and 2 look fantastic, then 3 comes along. Work needed, but I'm sure DTG are doing their thing and as Sam has stated, they ARE listening to the mob.

    No need for the pitchforks people!!
     
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  6. SprattyHeath

    SprattyHeath Well-Known Member

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    That third image is so wrong in so many ways. There aren't even supposed to be any buildings there upload_2021-1-25_14-30-18.png
     
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  7. Mattty May

    Mattty May Guest

    I was surprised to see that building so close to the track. It didn’t feel right to me, but not familiar with the location to know.
     
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  8. Ferrovipathe67

    Ferrovipathe67 Well-Known Member

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    I believe that on this line there are freight services with a class66
     
  9. SprattyHeath

    SprattyHeath Well-Known Member

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    yes, as mentioned previously, you'd have a 66 either starting/finishing at Gravesend or Faversham which will be too short in length.

    Likewise with ECW the inclusion of the 66 was pointless as there was no altering of that specific service other than to pickup aggregates and return them back to Lewes vise versa.
     
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  10. Northerner

    Northerner Well-Known Member

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    Looking at Google maps, there is now a building there but it's at least 20ft away from the track and is outside of the railway boundary.
     
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  11. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    This route is an updated version of the TS1 route, so there have been various apartments built since the TS1 route was released. However it still looks nothing like it should.

    The train passes these multi-million pound apartments and the iconic Gasholder Park, which is in clear view from the train, however this is not represented whatsoever in SEHS, despite it being a major landmark and scenery feature.

    F85D5307-DBCE-4C0C-9F4F-811B8437853E.jpg
     
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  12. SprattyHeath

    SprattyHeath Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I should have realised that the area has been quite developed since the TS1 route released. My bad
     
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  13. Alex_m30x#7297

    Alex_m30x#7297 Well-Known Member

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    I love it but i just wish they had a little more for the 375, instead of literally 5 stops then of and find another train
     
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  14. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    Another view - The Class 395 goes RIGHT next to these apartments to the left of this image, as the track follows it round. which means there’s no excuse for not including these apartments.

    FCDFDC0B-613E-46FA-981B-DA001428BC1B.jpg
     
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  15. SprattyHeath

    SprattyHeath Well-Known Member

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    There isn't really anywhere else for the 375 to go sadly, at least be glad its been included rather than a goods service.
     
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  16. BR125

    BR125 Well-Known Member

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    londonmidland how much willpower do you have to do some more RL/TS/TSW comparisons?
     
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  17. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

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    I agree. The "classic" part of the route (Ebbsfleet - Faversham), IMO, looks absolutely stunning in a lot of places (big holes in the floor at Rochester aside), but the HS1 section in its current form is questionable at best.

    I'd be a bit cautious when cross-referncing that part of the route with the TS1 version, because I'm pretty sure this isn't right, looking at Google maps and Street View 20210122104256_1.jpg


    The reason it doesn't look right is because the building doesn't flaming exist. i think it's meant to be whatever this is. upload_2021-1-25_14-45-8.png
     
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  18. SprattyHeath

    SprattyHeath Well-Known Member

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    Thanks, I think it now makes more sense to me what actually needs to be there.
     
  19. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    I've spent long enough in on 80X stock (which is similar enough to a 395 cab design) to know what they sound like. In 40 hours time I'll have that pleasure again. The saloon is a far better sound experience than the cab, purely down to the exterior doors in the cab.
     
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  20. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

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    upload_2021-1-25_14-51-29.png
    This brown/red/possibly wood/wood effect building, maybe?
     
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  21. Alex_m30x#7297

    Alex_m30x#7297 Well-Known Member

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    Yep but my point is there should be that loop at least or to lon vic so you can do longer services
     
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  22. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    That's pretty much what they did with the LIRR as well. Even though it's got many issues, like the empty timetable or missing trackside posts, it's a beautiful route. You look at it and it looks nice and believable. As long as you don't look up any reference cabride videos.

    For example the elevated section towards Atlantic Terminal is totally off. They use ballast tracks all the way, even though it's a ballastless metal bridge in real life, similar to what elevated subways use. Such a shame, because it's a really unique part of the route, but this uniqueness is taken away by the use of a ballast track. Also the surrounding building heights are totally off. I don't expect them to model every building one by one, but at least use building that are in overall similar height to what you see in real life.
    Or the area around Garden City and Country Life Press. Other than the track layout, they are COMPLETELY different to real life. When I first watched a real life cab ride I couldn't believe that they were trying to recreate the same locations.

    So overall it seems to be a TSW thing that even though the route looks good, it looks nothing like it was modelled after. It's like they just look at it from above in Google Earth and don't watch any reference photos or cabrides. Or only do so once at the beginning and then do the whole thing from memory.

    Funny enough, I got the same feeling from the Isle of Wight route. The section around Ryde is beautiful. But the further you go, the quality and level of detail seems to decrease.

    It's painfully obvious that they either run out of time while making the routes, or different sections are made by different people, and some peope just do a weaker job. I believe Rivet games showed a picture where the route tiles were shown to be assigned to different route builders. So that might be a reason.
     
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  23. SprattyHeath

    SprattyHeath Well-Known Member

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    The loop would have made for a much more fun experience, at least then the name SEHS would actually makes sense
     
  24. KiwiLE

    KiwiLE Well-Known Member

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    LucasLCC Fair enough, I've never been in an 80X cab, or a 395. I do have to say that many posters here maybe don't realise just how quiet a modern cab is. Well insulated, aerodynamic, good (mostly), long welded track, motors not underneath etc.. Mainly low wind noise and very quiet track noise. Even back in the BR Class 82 DVTs, very quiet.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2021
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  25. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, the first ss Rivet shared of Isle of Wight had a station (I think it was Brading) modeled completely wrong - the abandoned platform was too close to the track, and looked brand new.
     
  26. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    It's a shame because there are some pretty major flaws with scenery, however Sam has already told us that there won't be any changes to expect, apart from the 395 sounds.

    It's a shame that a DLC has to be held up by a train, we aren't just buying those, we are buying a route, and while there are people here that say the route looks good, I don't think 'good' is a realistic description of the representation we are getting here, my personal view on it is that the closer something is to the track, the more importance should be put into recreating it.

    Hopefully the 395 comes out with good sounds, and that gaping hole in the ground outside Rochester is dealt with, as another user brought up, Kent seems to have been done quite well bar a few things which don't effect the route so much, but I do find it bizarre that they put so much effort into making sure the signals had the correct amount of LED's and the correct LED pattern, but then HS1, Hoo Yard & London are the way that they are, it definitely supports the theory that a release date took priority over route accuracy & even seemingly the 375 & 395 sounds.

    I really wish the best of luck to the audio team, and look forward to hearing the 395, as Sam has now clarified what our expectations should be, and that is we get what we are given.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2021
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  27. Agent Qracle RUS

    Agent Qracle RUS Well-Known Member

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    Seems like we not geting Sherness branch with full route - that very dissapointed me(
     
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  28. SprattyHeath

    SprattyHeath Well-Known Member

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    That was never included with the original TS1 route. It was a seperate DLC
     
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  29. Alex_m30x#7297

    Alex_m30x#7297 Well-Known Member

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    same, all respect to the team, the class 375 is pretty much pointless. max 5 stops then done, get out and try and find another train.
     
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  30. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    At least PIS is there to let you know how long your wait will be!
     
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  31. BR125

    BR125 Well-Known Member

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    Its a shame, id love to drive HS1. I wont be buying it though simply because I want to drive HS1, not a generic route with a 395 on it.

    shame theyve dropped the ball and settled really.
     
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  32. Bryer

    Bryer Well-Known Member

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    Rightio oh then. Just FYI about that link.....

    WTT = Working Timetable (means these services are shown as in the timetable and booked to run every day)
    VAR = Variation to WTT entry which means it's been altered for one day or a block of days only.
    VST & STP = The train doesn't exist in the WTT and has been added ad-hoc to the daily timetable for one reason or another.

    So going on the WTT which is what DTG will have access to as do you, would mean a fair few services to model in Hoo Junction or running over the bit of the line where they are booked to run.
     
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  33. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

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    I'd imagine there are services of 8 stops with a somewhat lengthy journey. Also, the ICE services in HMA and SKA are literally 2 stops - one at either end of the route. Are the ICEs therefore pointless?
     
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  34. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    The good parts were mentioned at the beginning and we all agree what there are some good new features, some people, such as matjamca wrote a "review" of the route providing negatives and positives but there is no reason for everyone to repeat "that's good but this is bad", what's good was already written by the OP and I think we can all agree that the route is not a complete disaster.

    The new signalling system, the new signal aspects and road crossings are certainly a good addition, also from what I saw on the stream and this thread the traditional part of the route seem mostly fine.

    Also from previous posts from Sam I understood that they are considering the "reduced timetable" as a game breaking problem so that will likely be fixed, and the sounds were not ready as of the stream.
    I'm sure I am in your blacklist already but just because we don't mention at every reply that X dlc is not awful doesn't mean we think it is.

    This thread was not created to review the route, but was created to point out inaccuracies, while it was nice that both the OP and various people here reminded everyone that, indeed, there were some good things about the route, that was not required, and you can argue it was even off-topic.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2021
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  35. Alex_m30x#7297

    Alex_m30x#7297 Well-Known Member

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    In my opinion a bit/ I haunt bought any German routes. I would rather do 5 stops though then shoving the throttle up, turn on abf and sit there doing nothing for half an hour
     
  36. Bryer

    Bryer Well-Known Member

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    You aren't on my blacklist federicodiliberto2001. :D

    I agree that the route has a lot of promise.

    I'd personally like to see the timetable expanded or layered when the 465 comes out, with the ability to run services from Faversham to Gravesend with the 375/465's as they would run there in real life, heck they even run to Ebbsfleet/Northfleet, so you could run them to the higher level and they you'd jump off.
     
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  37. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

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    Just because a train is labelled as WTT, does not mean it will run. If there's only a few running, then I'd imagine they're just "runs as required" (which basically means the train will only run of the operator needs to run it, or if the customer needs it to run). Having them on the WTT means they expect it to run regularly, but don't know specifically when, so they book the path just in case. See this service:
    upload_2021-1-25_15-23-51.png
    upload_2021-1-25_15-25-14.png
    https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y11096/2021-01-25/detailed

    If there are, say, 20 or 30 runs as required trains booked on a given line, it would be extremely rare for all of them to run. (ignore the attatched file down there - was going to show a different service)
     

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    Last edited: Jan 25, 2021
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  38. erg73

    erg73 Well-Known Member

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    To be honest, as I'm not from the UK I wouldn't have noticed many of these errors that have been mentioned and although the reaction of many fans may seem excessive, I understand this "frustration". And it goes beyond a fence or ballast.

    I've only been with TSW for a short time (about a year) and I haven't played TS before, but I'm getting to know DTG's way of doing things, so maybe they are to blame for this distrust from the community, because in all this time I've seen a pattern in their way of doing things:

    1) What they show us in pre-release streamings is usually the product we buy on release day, despite warning that it's in development.

    2) Once the product is released, bug fixes take too long to arrive, if ever. Because most of them end up being forgotten. Sometimes even to fix one thing they mess up another, and this is quite irritating.

    Then, what were once promises that one thing was going to be implemented or fixed, hopefully gets put on the roadmap, with the problem that it's already full of things to implement and fix from previous routes. And the work accumulates with each route they launch and it ends up becoming a loop.

    Most people want to play their routes in optimal conditions when they buy them, to enjoy them and get the most out of them. Nobody is given money for free and when we consume a product, which by the way is not cheap, we should demand that it is completed and not based on promises of: "You buy it, we'll fix it one day".

    Because also, if it ends up being fixed in the end, too much time has passed and this in my opinion is negative because many of those who bought the route at launch will no longer enjoy those fixes and implementations in the same way as if they had been there from the beginning.

    Of course, they as a company will say that they have to launch routes to be able to sustain themselves, but wouldn't it be better to launch better "cooked" routes so that they don't have to fix them later? Maybe you could focus better on the new routes if you don't have to fix things that you didn't do well in ten previous routes. Besides, you've lost sales from people who would have bought the route at full price.

    So this is why I say that I understand these reactions. Buyers are afraid that if a route is not in a good condition on the day of release it will never be in a good condition. And it is frustrating.

    I love TSW, it provides me with incredible entertainment and I've spent a lot of money on it because I think it deserves it and it's the way to support this company and its product. But in my humble opinion DTG needs to go a step further and strive for excellence, and that means releasing much more polished routes.

    The right focus is on quality, customer service and customer satisfaction. Not just working to sell something, but to build trust.
     
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  39. Bryer

    Bryer Well-Known Member

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    0N06 will be a light engine move, LNER doesn't have any light engines anymore as Class 91's are currently all in storage/refurb as the Azuma's have taken over.

    WTT you need to submit the path to Network Rail, who authorise the headcode and allocate a path a year in advance sometimes. The WTT gets reviewed Summer and Winter, hence why you have a scheduled timetable change twice a year.

    If you do not use a path you have been allocated in the WTT often enough, Network Rail will not allow you to keep that path in the next version of the WTT.

    But again rules are different for TOC and FOC's.
     
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  40. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

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    I've seen it running before - it's a Class 67, and presumably it's for driver training/route learning purposes (the route 0N06 follows is a diversionary route in case the ECML is closed for whatever reason).
     
  41. Bryer

    Bryer Well-Known Member

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    Yeah so that's a DB hire in for the locomotive, from the old Thunderbird days. You seem to be missing the point of the original answer to the post I was replying too.

    Have a great day Cameron.
     
  42. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

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    I think we have drifted off point :)
     
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  43. ZeenozPlays

    ZeenozPlays Well-Known Member

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    If we don't mentioned the issues we've seen about the route before it's released, then there is nothing stopping DTG from being like "Well, we already have their money, we don't need to change anything."
     
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  44. Alex_m30x#7297

    Alex_m30x#7297 Well-Known Member

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    But no one would buy another dlc
     
  45. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

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    It'd take quite a while for DTG to realise people aren't buying DLCs any more, given there are only 2 (DTG-made) routes on the roadmap. It would be easy to interpret a lack of sales to a lack of interest.
     
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  46. junior hornet

    junior hornet Well-Known Member

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    I spent a few years working in IT and can tell you that in my experience, release date ALWAYS takes priority over quality of product, leading to work being rushed. This often isn’t helped by the customer demanding changes and new additions late in the process but won’t accept a delay to the release date.

    I think the best we can hope for is that the product will be released on Feb 4th (and let’s face it, there will be many, many gripes on this forum if it is delayed) and the issues mentioned here will be dealt with later. However, although any gamebreakers will likely be fixed, I won’t hold my breath over scenery being improved. This will cost DTG money and will not generate any income.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2021
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  47. martschuffing

    martschuffing Well-Known Member

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    No, but reference material is available, not saying DtG should "use" this but if they actually "listened" to it then surely an approximation could be reached if their sound engineers know what they are doing?
     
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  48. ZeenozPlays

    ZeenozPlays Well-Known Member

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    And they will lose income if they choose not to change some things. I'd just go with delaying the route, but it really seems like they are in a tough situation.
     
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  49. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    It would be cool but I think dtg would do a piss poor job on the nyc subway. I live in nyc btw as well
     
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  50. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    But judging from our reaction to TSW2 release delay we're more than fine AS CUSTOMERS with the postponed release if we get fixed product.
     
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