South Eastern High Speed - A Rushed Made Route?

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by londonmidland, Jan 22, 2021.

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  1. martschuffing

    martschuffing Well-Known Member

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    After having watched the stream on youtube the other night my first impressions were: 1: why is the cab bogie run sounds nonexistent? (Matt explained further into the video that these are being worked on). 2: Why wasn't anyone mentioning the awful stuttering going on in the video? Matt said later on that it was a dev build and the game was logging bugs which was causing the slow ups. 3: the awful ballast with its repetitive patterning was gobsmackingly obvious! No comment was made during the stream about it. Presumably, no one commented or it was ignored like a question Sam relayed to Matt, but Matt just decided to make no comment 4: Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill!?
    And why isn't cyberbunk2077 a salutary lesson to all devs out there?
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2021
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  2. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    The ugly, repetitive ballast pattern is a reoccuring issue with most routes. The TGV route also had it. How can any game developer look at it in 2020/2021 and say it's okay that way, I have no idea. I mean all you have to do is alter/replace ONE texture to make it better. Just replace it with a texture that doesn't make the repeating that noticable.

    It sounds like a small thing, but it really ruins the visuals. And it would be pretty easy to solve, but would have a huge impact (just like the ballast color everyone keeps complaining about).
     
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  3. martschuffing

    martschuffing Well-Known Member

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    I agree. But as Sam commented in an earlier post stuff like that isn't a deal-breaker, I think we should agree to disagree. And it would appear others do too.
    Perhaps Sam should change his moniker from protagonist to pragmatist?
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2021
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  4. ZeenozPlays

    ZeenozPlays Well-Known Member

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    Bro, I feel that way as well. I keep making suggestions for it just to show them that part of the community wants it, but I honestly feel like they’d upset a lot of us NYC railfans with the sound. Wish I could make my own Subway Simulator *thinking emoji*
     
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  5. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    The amount of stuff they got wrong on the lirr and as a frequent user of the hempstead branch makes it quite jarring. The modeling of the m3 and m7 I must say was nailed apart from the interior lighting of the m3, the m7's windows not being tinted and the incorrect sounds on both trains. The m7 doesn't sound like a bullet train at 20 mph. What I like about dtg is that they can model trains correctly and they only get better and better with that. Some stations like hempstead are modelled accurately as well
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2021
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  6. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Maybe tml studios can make the entire nyc subway system for world of subways 5 although it most likely would be pc only
     
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  7. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    At least he is being honest from a certain point of view
     
  8. martschuffing

    martschuffing Well-Known Member

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    Don't get me wrong I'm not having a go at him, he's in a position where his answers may have to be balanced? I like Sam and his endeavours. But you know not everyone has to agree with everything that someone says? We all have our different perspectives likes and dislikes etc makes for interesting stuff.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2021
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  9. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    That is true mate
     
  10. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Well that's not suprising
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2021
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  11. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    I agree that release date coming first is the common rule, my point was more that they are starting cut it too close with the development time allotted to a project.

    In regards to changes being requested late in the process, it's really upto DTG when they provide details or showcase their work, I don't really see a reality in which DTG assume that there would be no feedback regarding things in their content, a good example here is the 375, and it having no changes regarding any feedback given for the 377.

    It also really doesn't help when what we get shown is labelled a work in progress, even though its become a common pattern that these showcased builds are actually 99% of the finished product, all the spiel they give regarding builds being unfinished leads to an impression that feedback has a chance to be taken and changes to be applied, it's getting to the point where my personal confidence in their content is being worn down because they aren't very transparent with what build is actually on display.

    Of course we now know that the changes we are to expect upon release are minimal, however their YouTube upload alone is at 22k views, and that video contains a well respected developer telling us that work is still being done, how may of those 22k viewers are going to have seen Sam's comment here telling us we should not be expecting much to change?
     
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  12. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Probably not many would have seen sam's comment or maybe it could be the opposite
     
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  13. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I see that being the case with their recent trends as of late
     
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  14. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    But Matt said the sound is still being worked on and as Sam said on here apart from that little else should be expected to change, so he isn't contradicting him.

    Listen to Matt describing the state of the route as he pulls out of St Pancras: around 6 mins in the video...

    "The route and the train are very close to being finished. the team are going through polish, the audio on the javelin has some work left to go but functionality on the train is basically there now. The route iteself is down to final polish, various teams including our very valued beta testers are looking over the route for the polish - floating assets and all of those annoying things"
     
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  15. ZeenozPlays

    ZeenozPlays Well-Known Member

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    I heavily doubt it.
     
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  16. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I know but hey we can dream
     
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  17. heyitspopcorn

    heyitspopcorn Well-Known Member

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    I'm not overly familiar with SEHS. I don't live in London, or in the U.K. for that matter, I have never ridden on High Speed 1, I haven't looked at the area on Google Maps, and I haven't watched cab ride videos of the route. Regardless of whether or not the exact buildings were modelled properly, to me, the London segment of the route just looks... unfinished. It doesn't look like it runs through one of the world's most populous metropolitan areas.

    The Kent side looks nice, maybe even as detailed as East Coastway (one of my favourite routes to-date), but the London side just doesn't look good at all. It looks barren. I don't think you need side-by-side comparisons with pictures/screenshots from real cab ride videos to see that it looks off.
     
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  18. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    It seems they started in the kent side of the route, did most of the work there and when they got to London, they didn't do as much work with the detail of the route in the london area then in the kent area. The inconsistency is quite baffling
     
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  19. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    Another thing which I’m worried about is the sounds. At so close to release (bear in mind the project has to be submitted in advanced) the Class 395 sounds were honestly disappointing. I know that they said they were still working on the sounds, but do you honestly think that they’re going to improve dramatically from now till release? I don’t think so.

    I don’t want to call anyone a liar, but I do think some of the things said on the stream were perhaps over optimistic. We already know that the scenery is going to be pretty much what we’ve seen in the stream, and I doubt the sounds are going to improve very much if I’m completely honest with you.

    There are things you can sugarcoat, but underneath that you will find out what it’s really like, and I think this add-on will be an example of that.
     
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  20. Bryer

    Bryer Well-Known Member

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    Just curious if you've been forced to buy this DLC londonmidland ?
     
  21. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    Why are you so offended by negative feedback? We all clearly want the DLC, we just want it to be right.

    The irony in your telling people not to subject themselves to things they don't like while you're doing the exact same thing is incredible, you've repeatedly said you do not wish to participate in this thread, whilst continuing to do so, all the while providing non-constructive replies to people.

    On another hand i've seen you provide good instances of information on class 66's and freight workings, and even sounds!
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2021
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  22. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    Please don’t ask sarcastic questions which don’t contribute to the thread.

    Buying it or not isn’t the point, nor saying “if you don’t like it, don’t buy it”. I think just about everyone knows that DTG can produce some really good routes, as they have in the past, however you cannot say that this route is one of their best given the state of the scenery, which won’t change for release.
     
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  23. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Has left the building Staff Member

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    You're not being stupid to any degree. Ultimately you care about what you care about. Of importance to you is not the same as important to everyone or sometimes anyone, else. That does not make it unimportant.

    Thanks to the feedback in this thread and elsewhere we have a clear picture of where the biggest improvements are to be found. These have been sent to the development team for consideration. It may be that no further changes are possible, and we understand that may leave some players feeling the route is lacking.
     
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  24. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Has left the building Staff Member

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    If everyone could keep a sense of civility in this thread it would be appreciated.

    Everyone has a right to agree or disagree as they see fit as this is a subjective topic matter. If you believe that the route looks to be falling short of what you expect that's entirely fine. If you disagree with that position, that too is fine. Everyone is allowed their say providing they can be civil about it.
     
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  25. thundergaming11

    thundergaming11 Well-Known Member

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    the stream was a dev build though so maybe there will be some better changes in the released version? I'd assume the things pointed out would've also been picked up by the beta team? I was optimistic pre stream but not so much now...
     
  26. Alex_m30x#7297

    Alex_m30x#7297 Well-Known Member

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    Sam has said not many changes apart from sound
     
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  27. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Has left the building Staff Member

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    The route is "pretty much done", apart from sound which was not yet final. How much it'll change before launch is likely to be limited, but we'll field any further questions (try to go easy on the rhetoric, you won't find any satisfaction in the answers) in the next preview.
     
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  28. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Isn't the phrase "state of the scenery" a little infelicitous? That suggests that apart from the missing fencing and incorrect ballast colour that the complete route is a mess and wholly unrepresentive. I watched the stream again, on Youtube this evening and I still think the route overall looks good, the scenery looks well modelled, it looks like the typical countryside of north Kent, the HS1 line which I have ridden on is not exactly exciting and that was portrayed well also. The approach into Rochester over the Medway with the Cathedral and Castle looked good. I might not be quite so worried about the ballast and the fencing but I am certain my standards aren't that low. I think we are in danger a little of blowing the inaccuracies out of proportion compared to the rest of the package. If the scenery is that awful then presumably even the corrections to the ballast and the fencing and the missing staff halt would still mean the route wasn't good enough for many, therefore it doesn't stand a chance.

    The main point I took from the stream was the 395 is very quiet and I am sure not as quiet in the cab as on the stream but they have said they are still working on it, so I think we should give them a chance on that score, also I have a slight concern the route might not be as busy as in reality.
     
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  29. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    Sadly it seems that DTGs view of "pretty much done" differs from the views of a number of your customers. Finished would mean the high speed section replicates the high speed section, which at this moment in time it doesn't.
     
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  30. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    Nope. If you saw my comment earlier, you’ll see I was pretty much pleased with the scenery on the Kent side of the route. It’s the HS1 and London end of the route where the scenery is drastically lacking.

    Watch the stream again and start at the beginning as you’re leaving London St. Pancras and keep your eye out on the scenery. Then skip the video to when the train is in Kent. The difference is day and night.
     
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  31. Bryer

    Bryer Well-Known Member

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    Well no one is holding a gun to your head and saying you must buy this DLC are they? If you aren't happy with the product at the end of the development cycle, talk with your wallet and don't buy it. If they implement your suggestions (some are exceptional) and the points you've raised, you can acknowledge it with your wallet. The question is not sarcastic in anyway shape or form, but a genuine question as to if you aren't happy, why are you going to buy it at release?

    Sorry that my view point that is I'm not going to pass judgement fully on something until I try it for myself doesn't fit in with your negative POV and let's be honest with each other, your current view point would appear by your posts to be negative in regards to this DLC.

    I've contributed in this thread with my opinion to other people's views as I see fit.

    The reason the posts about 66, freight workings and sound make sense is because I actually work within that industry and am talking from personal experience.

    Like I've said before. Stay safe, take care and wear a mask!
     
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  32. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    Again, you’ve failed to understand the context of the comment so I shall ignore your comments from now on. Good day.
     
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  33. Bryer

    Bryer Well-Known Member

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    Fully get it. You aren't happy with the preview product and don't feel they should release it and that they have rushed it. Got it! Sorry for having an opinion.
     
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  34. Analogue Anomaly

    Analogue Anomaly Member

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    Aside from some lighting issues this was my big complaint, we have silos instead of buildings (interested to see what the city looks like in night scenarios), and those square canal boats are a token effort! I was hoping they were all placeholders for better models? I always enjoy looking out the window on departing St.Pancras as the area has been massively redeveloped, and to be honest there is not much to look at for the rest of the journey.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2021
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  35. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    But the thing is, these are small thing, but have great impact.

    The color of the ballast, for example, is something that easily makes a route recognisable. Imagine it with a grey one - then just by looking at any screenshot, you would know instantly that it's South Eastern High Speed. Now it looks just like any other british or german one, as they all use pretty much the same colored ballast.

    Or that fence everyone keeps mentioning. It's minimal work, all you have to do is drag it over by the tracks, and there, it instantly gave more depth to the whole area.

    Things like the inaccurate overhead wire could've been simply avoided during route building. Instead of spanning it across all 4 tracks, span it across only 2. Sure, then you'll have to do the other 2 tracks as well, but considering it's probably semi-automated, just like in Train Simulator, I assume it's not that much of a hassle.

    The reason people keep complaining is because those are such small things, but they affect the outcome by a lot. And if they're not done now, they're not going to be get fixed later. Unlike, for example, the level crossings. They probably required more work, even though they're not THAT important. It's really great to have them back finally, but they won't save the a route if the scenery is bad otherwise.
     
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  36. RailFan97

    RailFan97 Active Member

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    Agree with you about their attitude towards customers. I watched my first Stream today of the Southeastern High Speed route and the man who was taking the questions (not the producer who was driving) came across incredibly rude. Not a good look.
     
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  37. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately his demeanour comes from his YT channel persona (or at least I used to think it was just a persona), and whilst entertaining there, it does come across as rather rude and confrontational when discussing more important things (important in terms of discussing their products), and I'd imagine especially so to people who aren't familiar with him.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2021
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  38. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    This approach was a necessity when announcing TSW2 though. Props to him there.
     
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  39. SprattyHeath

    SprattyHeath Well-Known Member

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    Thank you, I appreciate the reply
     
  40. ItsYa165

    ItsYa165 Well-Known Member

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    I hold the very strong opinion that HS1 is poorly represented. The deeper Kent side of the route is better, with the exception of Hoo's Staff Halt missing.
     
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  41. Mattty May

    Mattty May Guest

    I don’t think DTG Protagonist is being rude on the streams. I think he is trying to set expectations and whilst that may be perceived as coming across as being rude, it is just straight talking to try to remove any ambiguity or false hope the community might have.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 26, 2021
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  42. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps, like I say it does also have an entertainment factor, especially for fun streams such as Bakerloo challenges and such, it's just not really appropriate for everything.

    I do feel for the guy with his job role, even simple things like dealing with chat spam and repeat questions, definitely not a job for me.

    I just understand that it comes across as very abrupt, and that it wouldn't look good if you were watching your first ever stream on TSW 2, and seen those responses to questions regarding the content.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2021
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  43. BR125

    BR125 Well-Known Member

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    I think Sam is in an impossible position. He has to set expectations but knows that DTGs best is low enough for a proportion of people to abandon TSW. Its not like he can straight out say "the game will never be good enough so you might aswell leave now, we dont have the skills/talent/time/money/interest/all the above to change the things you've spent 4 years telling us".

    It does feel like DTG try to play alot on their passion (which I dont doubt) via things such as the steam article, but then constantly fail to show it with their product. Its all mouth and no substance alot of the time.

    I think the excuse of the new engine is gone. The lighting, the sky texture, the passenger AI, the wet platform texture(!), closing crossing gates, car traffic etc are all things the game should have had from year 1, not seen as a "look how good we are" in year 4.

    its year 4 and having a wet platform texture is still seen as a neat feature of a route....yet the sky which theyve been told about for 4 years, and shadows, and lighting issues, pop in issues, dead routes are all still unchanged.

    EDIT FOR CLARITY: I like Sam, I think he is the best CM theyve had in 4 years. I feel like he is being left to hang by the failings of the devs.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2021
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  44. GrayDawg

    GrayDawg Well-Known Member

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    As far as DTG Protagonist goes, the man is the best darn community manager I have ever come across during my almost 30 years on the internet, and I have seen my fair share of them, and then some. He says it, as it is, and if you don't like it, don't let the proverbial door hit your over-sensitive little tooshie on the way out --->>>. The man is worth his weight in gold, literally, and I sincerely hope they compensate him accordingly. Just sayin...
     
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  45. Analogue Anomaly

    Analogue Anomaly Member

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    Yeah Sam is very refreshing, he has the kind of straight-forward honest approach that's sadly lacking in many places. No wishy-washy word salads!
     
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  46. nielsmallant100

    nielsmallant100 Well-Known Member

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    I'm sorry you must be new here, a preview stream pretty much means release candidate. except for some missing sounds, nothing ever really gets changed between preview and release.
     
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  47. Bryer

    Bryer Well-Known Member

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    Yep my first day posting on these forums!
     
  48. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    Some of their devs definitely have high passion for what they do. It's clearly visible through certain features and details. Yet things overall always feel lazy.

    My guess is, they have some really passionate members in the team, but then also more lazy/inexperienced ones. Sorry for saying this, not trying to hurt anyone on the dev team, but that's just the feeling I have. Or everyone hardworking and passionate, but then they simply don't have enough members.

    Whatever the reason is, I wish they took more time to polish their content, as they always hold so much potential.
     
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  49. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    [removed by Protagonist - this isn't helping maintain civility]
     
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  50. Bryer

    Bryer Well-Known Member

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    [removed by Protagonist - continuing argument]
     
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