South Eastern High Speed - A Rushed Made Route?

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by londonmidland, Jan 22, 2021.

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  1. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I think sam is very funny but sometimes the humor feels a bit dragged in ts streams
     
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  2. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    I think it has a lot more to do with pressure coming down from higher up, although there is definitely some inconsistency between types of content, and even areas within the same content pack.
     
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  3. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Matt is a person who seems clearly passionate about trains but that passion from the dtg team doesn't always relate to a good quality product overall no matter how passionate the team is
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2021
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  4. LT586

    LT586 Well-Known Member

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    Yes
     
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  5. SprattyHeath

    SprattyHeath Well-Known Member

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    I think you forgot that he actually apologised like a page later in this thread.
     
  6. WVUadam

    WVUadam Well-Known Member

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    but it's only two locos so hard to say really and then that issue would only exist on xbox one and PS4 versions of the route.
     
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  7. Huntlosen

    Huntlosen Active Member

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    I think it's a pity how publishers self-destruct. Through ignorance of the community. Be it COD, which disperse the old players by too strong SBMM, Need for speed, which is getting worse and worse. DTG, who think 200 players that not buy the DLC are not a problem, it's just - 6000€.
    Fortnite is sadther the only game in the world that listens to the community and responds as quickly as possible. Errors are fixed after one day and see Epicgames earns a lot of money with the game.
     
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  8. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Are you really comparing a game with 350 million registered users against a game with at most 5000 players a day?
    I mean honestly, even if the game were perfect TSW2 wouldn't get anywhere near ten million copies let alone 350 million
     
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  9. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    As someone who used to play on a PS4, and even Xbox for a time, I can see it being plausible that 2 locos would have an effect, however considering how empty that particular area is I think it’s unlikely, especially with DTG’s tile system.

    Regardless of what it is DTG have chosen to release TSW 2 on PS4 & Xbox One, so it’s very much their decision and their responsibility to keep those platforms in mind when choosing and creating routes.

    HMA is worth no where near as much on console as it is on PC, and they did a huge dis-service in releasing that route with the issues it has on console.
     
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  10. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Has left the building Staff Member

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    Last warning to keep this one civil or it will be locked.
     
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  11. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    While the comparisons are abit extreme, the point still kind of makes sense, it is unreasonable to expect DTG to fix every bug straight away, but at the same time they don’t help in keeping that list to a minimum, for SEHS you can take the 375 and see that the same issues the 377 had have been applied to the 375.
     
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  12. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Not saying DTG don't need to fix bugs, but comparing TSW2 possible income to Fortnite income?
     
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  13. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    Well that was why I pointed out that the comparison was extreme.
     
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  14. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I understand, and my comment was aimed at them, not yourself. I'm sure we both know there are many issues to be addressed, and many which won't be
     
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  15. markhazeldine

    markhazeldine Well-Known Member

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    What is DTG's official stance/policy on improving/fixing things on routes post release? There are a lot of people in here complaining that this doesn't tend to happen. I have only been playing TS/TSW for a few months, so not sure what the historical norm is, but can you just clarify what DTG's stance is going forward? You said to "expect few/if any changes". Did you mean before release or at all, ever? I think it's reasonable to expect that if a lot of issues are brought up by loyal customers that at least some of those things would be addressed in a patch post release rather than just filed away and ignored. Do you not agree? What resources do you assign to this post-release process if any?
     
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  16. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    The roadmap streams deal with this. Adam has a team of four or five people, and access to other teams in the dev when they have time, and look to fix issues as time allows. Up until before xmas 2020 they were mainly involved in bringing the preserved collection from TSW2020 to TSW2 "in whatever form they could" and now it's their job to go back and fix issues, apply retrospective stuff like PIS etc etc

    The question is what do DTG think is "a problem that needs fixing" and what do they not.

    A fenceline that runs between a few hundred yards of line they might fix. A whole yard being texture rather than playable they may not.
    Sounds they've already said (on the roadmap) that they'll look at
     
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  17. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    If you look back through the roadmap you can see a list of fixes for routes, fixes tend to take a while to come to fruition (if at all)

    While It would unfair to say that DTG don’t fix anything post release, it isn’t one of their strong suits, a lot of issues being raised here will not be fixed as scenery is very rarely resolved ( I believe the only fixes scenery related have been a missing sun and landmarks for a route).

    The 375 in this route is virtually a clone of the 377, and that was released in 2019, however the bugged sounds and PIS system has not been fixed on the 377, and the same issues have now been passed on to the new 375.

    I think the balance for them fixing things isn’t in their favour, as there are plenty of issues that remain from TSW 1 & TSW 2.

    It’s very much luck of the draw as to what they decide to try and fix, or at least it seems like that.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2021
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  18. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    Artistic licence doesn't get "fixed" though it is just a different interpretation. So the key for the disgruntled people is to see whether the fence and ballast is described by DTG as being artistic licence (as intended) or something they acknowledge is in need of being fixed, even if post-launch.

    If DTG don't believe it is something worth fixing then it would be better to just say that rather than people hoping it will be fixed or expecting it to be fixed and it not happening. It just needs a clear line as to what will, what may, and what will not change from the preview. Then people can decide what to do after that.
     
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  19. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    I think in this case we've had clarification on what to expect, namely the 395 sounds being resolved.

    The biggest issue is that these previews often come with Matt & Sam saying that the route is not yet finished, and then not addressing certain things, like they did not give a reason for a reduced timetable, or why certain areas looked the way they did, and areas that are not being made use of.
     
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  20. railway12

    railway12 Well-Known Member

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    Where do I start? "Some" players find Sehs lacking? Ehm have you seen the post with 600 replies in just half a week? Well, the great majority of those find the route lacking. I personally think it's a mistake releasing it as planned. There is quite a lot of improvement needed on the HS1/London section of the route... as you may have noticed. And the timetable yes very much services indeed... And you only got feedback this week yes i see... the PIS on the 375 is way to big which you have known already but not considered doing... that and the wrong font on the speed signs, hoo junction is not recognizable at all... And most important you have not included THE fence, it would totally be fine if you forgot a fence but again you forgot THE fence... the ballast colour yes very good work, i could go on but i think i keep it short :) To be fair you have also done good but the route is lacking.
     
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  21. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    They do need to shrink the pis font size on the 375. It's way too big
     
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  22. KiwiLE

    KiwiLE Well-Known Member

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    To be fair, there are probably just 20 different members who have created the 600 replies.
    Yes, the route is lacking but they showed a dev version, not the final product....as we all know by now eh.
     
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  23. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    I mean how many times are we going to be shown a 'dev' version before it is understood that it's the release build, just with dev tools enabled.

    Sam has also already informed us that we shouldn't expect much difference in the released version.
     
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  24. ZeenozPlays

    ZeenozPlays Well-Known Member

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    There's a reason they show us stuff only like a week or two before the release. What they show us is what we are going to get. They aren't going to add much more. That is why people are upset and are calling for a delay for them to fix this, because the route is most likely going to release like this, and DTG has a reputation of not returning to routes to fix certain things.
     
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  25. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah in this case it was made clear, even on stream, that the route building was done and only polishing remained, there's no expectation from me that we will see scenery additions and corrections, as that would require another round of QA, and this route releases in 9 days.
     
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  26. ZeenozPlays

    ZeenozPlays Well-Known Member

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    I don't expect anything to be changed before release, but I do expect post-launch updates (hopefully we'll get them), that will fix the issues we have. I'd be pretty upset if we didn't at least get that.

    Also, I like your new PFP with the National Rail Symbol.
     
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  27. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    I think the issue is too large scale, the issue being time allotted to development.

    Hopefully the next iteration of electrostar has corrected sounds and realistic PIS, and they do need to get around to new track ballast.

    And thanks, unfortunately Virgin Trains have had their day!
     
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  28. SprattyHeath

    SprattyHeath Well-Known Member

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    That's been an issue with ECW too, don't think it will ever be fixed sadly
     
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  29. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I understand that it was the first time they had scrolling pis in a train but surely someone at dovetail knew it was wrong on the 377. Can't they just shrink the font size on the 377. Surely it can't be that difficult
     
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  30. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I wonder how much time does developers get to make a route before it goes to qa for issues and then for release. Surely they had enough time to add sound barriers and fencing on the hs1 lines.
     
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  31. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    On the "silent Javelin cab:"

    Did everyone manage to miss Matt saying in the stream that since the cab sounds were still being worked on, there weren't any in the dev build at all? Of course it was silent: the sound files simply were not there. That, at least, is one area of complaint which is definitely premature pre-launch.
     
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  32. sophieclarke1983

    sophieclarke1983 Well-Known Member

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    With regards to the sounds from javelin as Matt p explained reason for this is the cabs do not have the motors in the design of the javelin is such the motor cabs are in the central cars therefore this is in keeping with the actual design of the 395 javelin itself also as Matt p stated sounds currently being worked on
     
  33. sophieclarke1983

    sophieclarke1983 Well-Known Member

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    Well said
     
  34. sophieclarke1983

    sophieclarke1983 Well-Known Member

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    Well said people are far 2 judgemental after what was only a dev build stream not a production one people would do well to be grateful to DTG for working on things given co vid a lot of it is just nit picking for sake of if such as people carping on about stupid things like ballast and tunnels after all its a train simulator not a ballast or tunnel simulator which is daft people carping about tunnels as they are hardly going to be flooded with light and as Matt p rightly pointed out the actual south eastern javelin drivers themselves said the tunnels are dark
     
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  35. ZeenozPlays

    ZeenozPlays Well-Known Member

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    Ballast basically sets the tone of the route and sells the accuracy. If the ballast is light grey IRL, then obviously it would look extremely weird and off when someone who usually takes that route IRL sees that it is a dark grey in-game.

    You act like “Train Simulator” means it only simulates the Rolling Stock, and not the route that rolling stock is used on.

    DTG have said that there is basically no production loss during COVID. They are working at the same capacity with “the same efficiency”. So it’s not that.

    It’s like y’all don’t read all these messages, or haven’t paid attention to what DTG does. It doesn’t matter if it’s a dev build, it’s just the final copy with dev features. Most of the route is staying the same, almost nothing will change between the dev build and the release version. So y’all got to stop mentioning the fact that it’s a dev build like if it actually means something.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2021
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  36. Jalio

    Jalio Active Member

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    You reply to him like he watched 5 seconds of the stream and just came up with a quick summary.
     
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  37. sophieclarke1983

    sophieclarke1983 Well-Known Member

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    That’s totally incorrect as Matt stated it wasn’t a production build
     
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  38. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I wish people would back up their arguments with at least a reasonable grasp or realism when it comes to quoting statistics!

    I have seen quoted that DTG would think 200 people not purchasing the route not a problem, are those figures from a reliable source or just plucked out of the sky. Also, 600 posts mean 600 people are dissatisfied, well I am not sure there are even 600 regular contributors across all the forums on Dovetail live, I have posted multiple times in some of these threads and I am in the glass half full camp as are several others and the majority of the negative posts are a handful of people too!

    Then we get the DTG don't fix things, well look at the roadmap!
     
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  39. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I have never seen on any other route release since the days of MSTS in the early 2000's anyone ever mention ballast! Now either DTG have dropped a clanger and have managed to be the first developer ever to put the incorrect coloured ballast in a route or it has never been an issue, before, until someone who spots these things has noticed it.

    I would wager that the vast majority of people on here would not have even noticed the ballast if it hadn't been pointed out to them!

    Maybe these complaints are a back handed compliment to DTG as it shows how far TSW has come that we are now complaining about the colour of ballast and a missing fence.
     
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  40. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Some conveniently miss things. I watched the stream again yesterday and the sounds and the fact they were still being worked on was quite a large part of the overall conversation and came up more than once!
     
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  41. sophieclarke1983

    sophieclarke1983 Well-Known Member

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    Well said you can garuntee even if sehs was delayed people would still be carping about it when it’s released it’s like the whole thing about ballast that’s ridiculous as the colour of ballast doesn’t affect the trains or playability of the game
     
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  42. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    You are correct. Things like these in the past used to be correct. You can clearly see it in the TS1 comparison, where this same route in TS1 has correct ballast

    In occasions when TS1 routes had not proper ballast, it was always brought up. People always complained "eww, this route uses the old ugly Kuju tracks". But it mostly happened with low quality routes, like that south african one. It's a beautiful route, but it uses a resized version of the original Kuju track that really doesn't fit the scenery, as it's totally different color and it looks ugly.

    MSTS also had correct and unique ballast in their routes, as far as I remember, and TSW used to as well.

    And when the whole point of TSW is that it aims for extra detail and realism thanks to the capabilities of the Unreal engine, it's laughable that they can't get the color of the ballast right for a route, when literally all you have to do is recolor the texture file.
     
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  43. Tom Fresco

    Tom Fresco Well-Known Member

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    So most people who know the Route (on a daily Basis) are unsatisfyed, while others think its quite ok.
    If you look at pictures from the actual route, it will look different, not only with SEHS. And i understand the people that are upset about the HS1 Section, but if you know a coming route pretty well, it is almost safe that your hopes wonˋt be met. Same with me and HRR, wich is also a bit, lets say creative at some points.
    And as it was already shown earlyer on , a ballast fix is done in 20 Mins., so there will be a Mod for grey Ballast immediatly after the release. One of us can do it very fast and without other difficulties, bc its the only thing weˋre working on , but DTG has like 100 other things to do in order to release the DLC.
     
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  44. formulabee#1362

    formulabee#1362 Well-Known Member

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    This is a replay of ts2021 west coast mainline south, but without the performance issues
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2021
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  45. Tigert1966

    Tigert1966 Well-Known Member

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    It would be quite interesting if DTG did a survey where they asked players to identify from a multiple choice, the correct ballast, fencing, train sound. Etc.

    There are undoubtedly some very knowledgeable people here that can do it, but I suspect the majority of casual players couldn’t. I’ve got hundreds of hours playing TSW and TS2021 and I couldn’t (apart from some of the obvious sound issues in preserved collection). I have no clue what it looks like in real life, nor am I going to research it.

    I think it will be great if DTG do listen and fix these things. But I also don’t think (and it’s just my opinion) that it’s a catastrophe and that it’s worth delaying the release for.
     
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  46. formulabee#1362

    formulabee#1362 Well-Known Member

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    Definitely
     
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  47. Tigert1966

    Tigert1966 Well-Known Member

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    It really isn’t. That was unplayable unless you had a really powerful pc. This looks perfectly playable. There are just some observations that people don’t like.
     
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  48. formulabee#1362

    formulabee#1362 Well-Known Member

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    No as In aesthetics
     
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  49. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    So long as it was qualified and weighted so that people who have been ON the line (and therefore more of an idea what it's like to be on that route), fine.

    I have little issue with the ballast colour but agree that the fenceline is a bit of an issue, because we're not talking about one or two panels, but MILES of fenceline. As in you can't see the C2C lines from the HS1 lines for a few miles as you go from Stratford towards Dartford becuase the fence is so high

    There are also fencelines above the major roads (A13, A282) that seem to be not there.
     
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  50. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    I really don’t understand why people feel like they need to defend DTG on absolutely every point.

    While I agree that people (even myself) can be too critical towards them, there is definitely an opposite effect.

    The way I see this thread is that whilst it points to issues with SEHS, it’s also about the way that TSW is headed and the condition it’s currently in.

    Personally I don’t see how you can look at the route we have been shown and say, yep that’s good, I’m not sure how many times it can be said that there is no expectation of a perfect representation, but more effort needs to be put into things that are closer to where you as a player will be on the route.

    I see a counter point being raised quite abit when it comes to who is and who isn’t familiar with a route, but I don’t see why that should matter, the point of it surely is to make everyone feel asif they’re there, and a lot of issues being raised here aren’t anything that hasn’t been said before, so why DTG aren’t addressing things such as ballast seems bizarre, because yes, on its own it may be small and non game breaking, but on a route like this where so much has been missed, it’s quantifiable.

    I’m also confused as to why people still believe that dev builds we are shown aren’t actually the all but released builds, even Sam has come in here and said not to expect any difference, barring the 395.

    Whilst on the 395, we are fully aware that sounds are being implemented, however some of us are aware that DTG saying they’ll do something doesn’t always mean that it will happen, and when it does happen, it may not happen well, the end point is that we don’t want the 395 to sound like a quiet 377, which it currently does.
     
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