PlayStation Does Quality Control Need Quality Testing?

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by Samo1, Feb 2, 2021.

  1. Samo1

    Samo1 Well-Known Member

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    It was disappointing to hear/see running with no footsteps, wipers with no sounds and instruments with no lights, absolute basic problems that should never escape and be in a release version of a game, no wonder so many other deeper problems arise after release when the most basic can’t be found and dealt with, really really disappointing, I have thought for a long time your play testers are truly lacking and situations like this only serve to prove the point...... the South West route itself looks great though and runs through my local station, the next on from St Pancras, I’m tempted but to get the best experience I might hold off until I can finally get my hands on a new this generation console
     
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  2. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    Consider that they made quite a few changes from the last build, in the space of a week, and you might understand why QA time on said changes would of been limited at best, I think they did pretty good, and there's a good chance we'll see those niggles be fixed.

    Now I know the logical thing to do would be to delay the release to allow enough time for route to go back through QA, but DTG seem to have a very stringent release policy, which had only seen be overridden with the release of the full game, and it came up in the first SEHS that the development time for SEHS had already gone over what they had planned for, so another delay probably wasn't on the cards.
     
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  3. Samo1

    Samo1 Well-Known Member

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    I’m sure niggles will be fixed, I’m not saying the route should be delayed but when the most basic of easy to find bugs are still present in a final build then the quality of those testing need to be questioned and that’s what I’m doing, it also leaves questions of what other bugs have been missed? from blatantly obvious to more complicated
     
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  4. Irish Train sim

    Irish Train sim Well-Known Member

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    I’d say there are a few more bugs we don’t know about if the preview was the same timetabled route as the first. Looks amazing though and the few that we are aware of won’t stop me buying it on release day. Not bothered about footstep sounds as not a big fan of walking around the train anyway.
     
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  5. Samo1

    Samo1 Well-Known Member

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    There will definitely be more bugs, every game has bugs but if the most basic are overlooked you have to question whether there was any “real” testing, it has a deadline to make regardless, why let bugs get in the way?

    This culture of release because we can update later is ruining the industry from a player perspective, I come from a time when there was no buy now and update later so companies tended to test far more thoroughly than they do today but obviously games are more complicated today
     
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  6. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I do question dtg's qa team at times because there are issues that like you stated are clearly oboiovous in many routes in the past but get released anyways. I think they need testing themselves because they don't seem to test thoroughly. The culture of "release it now, fix it later" is quite annoying like the case with the preserved collection trains. I wish we can go back to the time where devs would test more thoroughly instead of releasing a product with pretty clear problems and fixing it after release or months after release. It begs the question if said product was tested in the first place?
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2021
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  7. erg73

    erg73 Well-Known Member

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    It is certainly regrettable that such a big job as building a route, in which so many people have participated with the effort of each one, is tarnished by these small but annoying errors. They should test their products better, because nobody can understand that these things are not detected in a test, being so obvious at first sight.
     
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  8. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    They did seem to take Matt by surprise, he did state the wipers had been making a sound previously. Maybe it could have even been some glitch which happened at the time.

    So, maybe they were faults which hadn't even happened before, I would imagine if they had happened regularly, someone would have come across it unless they ignored them, which would be odd.
     
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  9. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    At least the wiper issue will be on a list of simple bugs to fix that should have been fixed prior to release
     
  10. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I hope in the future their qa team is improved when testing things
     
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  11. Aufzug

    Aufzug Active Member

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    In terms of overall aesthetic quality and frame-rate stability, the game on next-gen is fantastic. However, the problems that you are seeing in route also show up on next-gen too. Unless there are core changes to the game engine, you're still going to encounter the same problems as you would on current gen; definitely not as frequent, but it still happens.

    My point is: don't rely on next-gen to solve core game engine problems.

    Completely agree that the routes need to go through more testing before release though.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2021
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  12. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    The game on next gen is so good and I do encounter some last gen issues but at least it's not as common. They are planning on upgrading the game engine again to 4.26. Hopefully that won't lead to the same issues that happened with 4.23 and hopefully we don't have to pay for another update for the same game
     
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  13. Irish Train sim

    Irish Train sim Well-Known Member

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    Pay for an update?
     
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  14. Lenwigg

    Lenwigg Well-Known Member

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    If you mean like paying £25 to go from TSW2020 to TSW2 I won't mind paying another £25 for another game if they give us another three routes that would cost £25 each along with a new improved game. And be able to bring everything from TSW2 along with it, count me in as I think I had a bargain when I purchased TSW2 just a month or two after buying TSW2020
     
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  15. junior hornet

    junior hornet Well-Known Member

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    Very true. Previously, when games were distributed on disk and the internet was not a wide ranging thing, they had to get it right as the only means of getting patches out would be to issue fresh disks to everyone who bought it.

    Having said that, I have to congratulate DTG for fixing issues raised by users on the forum in such a short time with more fixes to come.

    I do think though that, despite what some people think, we have lost sight of the fact that, at the end of the day, TSW2 is not real life. It is a game, albeit a simulation. Whereas major issues such as how a train behaves or the general feel of a route are important, some of the comments are quite petty (footsteps, really? Perhaps the person is wearing soft soled trainers - do you really notice the sound of footsteps in real life?)

    We risk waiting indeterminate periods of development while they get every part of the scenery pixel perfect and still someone will complain that something isn’t “right”.

    Personally, from what I have seen, I think they have done a good job of SEHS and the QA Team will have concentrated on the technical aspects (i.e. try and break it and reporting back if it crashes?) and cannot be expected to know what scenery looks like. A separate user testing team would be useful to address this by examining a potential release build after QA have done their stuff but of course, this will extend the planned development period.

    In my experience in IT though, release dates are sacred and any delays in development and QA will not delay the release date and any planned User Testing window will be reduced accordingly.
     
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  16. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I mean this route is not the only route that had clear issues but previous routes as well that you would think the qa would not miss but they get released anyways. Passengers getting on top of each other when leaving the train on the bakerloo line, preserved collection sounds, clipping issues on the bakerloo line and lirr and the list goes on. Footsteps may sound petty to you but if they are in every other route in this game then of course they should be in this route
     
  17. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    My concern with that is what happened with the preserved routes from tsw2020. They came to tsw2 with many issues, some that have yet to be fixed months after release making it seem like the qa didn't either test it properly or did not care. Screen 1 on the 422/425 turning all white with no way to change it back to normal, not getting the same audio quality form tsw2020 to tsw2 and trains not sounding right from tsw2020 in tsw2, sounds on the m7 cutting out and the list goes on. So if they did the same thing for tsw3 or whatever it's gonna be called my concern is we will see those exact same issues with preserved collection replicated again
     
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  18. Cramnor

    Cramnor Well-Known Member

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    To throw a bit more oil into the fire - I could imagine that not QA is the problem, but that there is an internal decision prioritizing things differently and making the conscious decision of not fixing certain things. I have come across so many obvious errors and issues, that everyone would spot, let alone when real drivers test the routes. And yet they persist. I even offered to provide a list with those things, thinking I could help. But since those things are getting ignored, I have the feeling it does not come down to KNOWING these problems (they probably have a longer list than all of us) but to actually being able to allocate time to FIX them, and then priorities might be on other things, and in the end there is no time to fix these immersion breakers (cause game breakers are understandably more important to get fixed).
     
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  19. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I think though if these clear issues got fixed pre release, none of these issues would be happening hence why they don't have time to fix things because the more bugs that come up for a small company like dtg, the longer it takes to fix them. This is a self inflected wound that dtg put on themselves and could have been preventable
     
  20. Cramnor

    Cramnor Well-Known Member

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    I think these are things that just happen, of course signs and these kind of things should not be placed wrongly in the first place, but they happen unfortunately. I can totally understand that (that it happens, not how its treated).
    But I totally agree, even with the preserved collection crew, at the current pace that seems to be a devils circle they will never be able to keep up with.
     
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  21. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    By the time they fix all the issues at this rate, the next tsw game will come out lol
     
  22. Gronk Honker

    Gronk Honker Active Member

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    What’s really destroying games is this pernicious culture of criticising the “presence of bugs” before the damn product is even released.

    What a pointless thread.
     
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  23. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Certainly there was a conscious decision in personnel assignment: Adam and his four assistants are responsible for ALL fixes and upgrades to Preserved Collection routes. Rather a lot for five people to work through.
     
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  24. Stockton Rails

    Stockton Rails Well-Known Member

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    ...sadly, I think this is exactly what will happen (and likely has already been happening for some time). Look at TSW 2020 for example- DTG simply abandoned work resolving *any* of the outstanding issues in that product suite once TSW 2 came out. Not a good deal for me and many others here who bought into the 2020 line... and certainly not the product support I expected when I bought into this line 8mos earlier.

    Mark my words- until something fundamental changes on the DTG side so they can finally start getting ahead of all of of these TS core and add-on issues, this behavior will continue from major rev to major rev. I’d like to be wrong of course... but I think it’s pretty clear how DTG rolls at this point.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2021
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  25. Cramnor

    Cramnor Well-Known Member

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    It's not only about SHS (where I agree, pointless speculations until it's released) but all the other routes that have been released and contain bugs that require fixing, and where one is wondering whether it's just oversight or lack of resources.
     
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  26. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Such a shame they don't produce a roadmap with a list of bugs which they have fixed and ones which are pending or ask people to report them on the forums! :|

    Oh well, they obviously don't ever fix bugs!
     
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  27. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    They will use the same QA they've used many times before. Release it in whatever state it's in by release date and let the paying customer tell them what's wrong with it.

    Some stuff they'll fix, some they'll ignore.
     
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  28. xblackwolf90

    xblackwolf90 Well-Known Member

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    Bugs and minor issues are to be expected. Particularly as a product comes close to release, fixing one issue may cause another issue that has already been marked as working OK (potentially what had happened with the wiper audio, gauge lights etc.).

    Providing it is patched quickly (say within a week), I have no issues. However, I totally understand why people lose confidence.

    In HMA for example, we are still waiting on bug fixes for issues identified on day one, with no sign of them on the roadmap even at this stage.

    - SiFa emergency brake doesn't apply.
    - Standing up causes audio occlusion error.
    - In cab clock is -1 hour.
    - Broken clocks at Munich.

    The first two items are serious immersion killers.

    DTG has made big improvements in its communication on bug fixes. Now Adam's team is formed and has their audio specialist up to speed, I live in hope things will continue in the right direction. However, if the basic errors identified in the stream don't all get patched in the first update, they'll need to turn around a second update very quickly.

    For this reason, I won't be purchasing SHS on release date. Once the patch is released and it's confirmed the issues identified are resolved, I'll happily buy it.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2021
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  29. Samo1

    Samo1 Well-Known Member

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    Matt and Sam were playing the finished retail release, so we can criticise, criticism drives improve, sheep who accept anything and everything drive down quality
     
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  30. Lenwigg

    Lenwigg Well-Known Member

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    He likes to start this type of critical thread off about the game. If there was a bird to be seen I am sure he would be counting it's feathers to see if he can moan about it.
     
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  31. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Last time I was around St. Pancras there were a lot more pigeons around. How did DTG miss those?! Even if they haven't got any pigeon models I am sure most of us would have been happy with a flock of Peregrine Falcons!
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2021
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  32. Samo1

    Samo1 Well-Known Member

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    There are sheep like you that accept anything and everything and there are those that try to drive the product forward with constructive criticism, when the most basic of bugs fall through the net there is a problem with those doing the job, fact my friend, fact, there will be plenty of consumers that have lost faith with constant release problems and simply won’t buy on day one until the faults are rectified, they are clued up consumers, those that buy knowing there are problems feed companies to continue the same practice of releasing unfinished games, I haven’t even mentioned releasing with tunnel light problems and other more important problems, I’m talking about catching bugs a six year old would catch but DTG’s quality control consistently miss time after time after time, you as a fan boy/girl/person/whatever are one of the problems why DTG can release unfinished release products and get away with it unfortunately
     
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  33. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Getting personal doesn't help your argument!
     
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  34. GuitarMan

    GuitarMan Well-Known Member

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    Please bear in mind the potential situation that

    QA/QC spot and report bug you say a child could spot

    said bug is prioritised by developer

    said fix does not make the cut.

    I’m not saying this is the case, however please don’t take the presence of bugs in a release as a sign that a QA/QC team did not spot it.
     
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  35. Slemcer

    Slemcer Well-Known Member

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    There have been some valid points in this thread. And I agree that the tone should be kept civil. So please, everyone, don't just criticise other posts because you don't like what's posted in them, or because some users often express their opinions in that way.
    I've decided I won't buy any TSW2 content until at least the majority of bugs has been fixed. But I expect they will stick to the habit of releasing DLCs with a lot of new bugs, and thus increase the workload for those developers dealing with them. It will most certainly be a never-ending story. Sad.
     
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  36. Samo1

    Samo1 Well-Known Member

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    He likes to start this type of critical thread off about the game. If there was a bird to be seen I am sure he would be counting it's feathers to see if he can moan about it.

    Tell your friend
     
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  37. Luke8899

    Luke8899 Well-Known Member

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    Unless you have a specific insight into DTG's QA team, you've no real right to suggest they are missing bugs. A QA tester's job is to find bugs, not fix them, what happens after they find them is a whole different story of various conflicting priorities and deadlines. It's entirely likely the very-easy-to-spot bugs are on a database somewhere but simply not prioritised because there are much worse bugs that are fixed before release and which you will never see. The continuing obsession you have with criticising a team you have no idea about is quite tiring considering it doesn't seem like you want buy anything DTG sells anyway.

    Nobody has to buy anything on day 1, even if it is bug free, it is a very weird notion that everything should be a day 1 purchase for everybody. Plenty of people don't mind the bugs because they're really not that important or noticeable to all people equally. There are people who will say LGV was half-finished when it was released and yet I have never had anything but great experiences with it since day 1. Other people who will tell me HMA is empty because it doesn't have layers and yet I bought it after pop-ins and stutters had been reported and I still can't say there's ever been a moment where I've thought "I wish I hadn't bought this".

    You don't have to dismiss everyone as fanboys because they don't agree with you.
     
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  38. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    When someone resorts to pejorative phrases like that, it says a lot in my opinion!

    Matt stated when it was pointed out that the wipers were silent, that they had been making a sound previously, which suggests it might not be an easy thing to replicate or possibly even a glitch.
     
  39. sophieclarke1983

    sophieclarke1983 Well-Known Member

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    The new consoles are epic a game changer I got series s xbox specifically thinking of sehs and they are a game changer next to no lag even on high speed services
     
  40. Lenwigg

    Lenwigg Well-Known Member

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    I enjoy everything that I play on the game, if I did not I would not play it.

    I curse it now and then, I guess most do, but I am very pleased that DTG brought it to console for us. And pleased that I found 2020 a few months back and decided to give it a try. Then TSW2 on release day and not looked back or regretted it since.

    I wish I was the boy he mentions, that was over fifty odd years ago unfortunately. And I stopped calling people names as I had grown up lol.
     
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  41. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    "Criticism drives improve, sheep who accept anything and everything drive down quality"

    --Karen
     
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  42. junior hornet

    junior hornet Well-Known Member

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    DTG not supporting bugs in TSW2020? Really? But this product is still being sold so should be fit for purpose and if it needs fixing, it should be. I can understand them not addressing anything that people would like to see in the game or a DLC but if there are things that are broken, then they should be fixed. Sale of Goods act and all that.
     
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  43. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Have you heard of the roadmap.....................
     
  44. junior hornet

    junior hornet Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, I should have used Quote. Stockton rails mentioned this in post 24 above and I have read previous comments saying that support for TSW2020 had been abandoned. I would welcome comment from DTG on this.

    BTW, I though the Roadmap was only for TSW2.
     
  45. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Apologies, I am getting confused now between the two! It is correct they have abandoned TSW2020 but it is best to read all about the reasons why and what they are doing instead.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2021
  46. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    The quote was supossed to be a joke but to be honest I do agree with you. They did decide to stop fixing tsw2020 but they wanted to do an engine upgrade that has led to some major and even game breaking problems for last gen. They said before tsw2 came out that they would work on fixing a few issues on tsw2020 and made an about face on that statement. I think a solution for clear issues to not arrive on release of a product is to give the devs more time to fix these problems before release or before showing a prodcution customer build of a route. It leads to the question if this product was tested and dtg in turn would get less complaints.
     
  47. Gronk Honker

    Gronk Honker Active Member

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    You know what, Samo? There’s a very specific bias to how you’ve listened to that stream. You’ve picked the eyes out of the issues — all of which were accounted for by Sam and Matt in a reflective and self-critical fashion. None of these issues were handwaved away.

    However, not once in this thread have you ever pointed to the many thousands of things that DTG have obviously gotten right in this DLC.

    You simply moan, and you never praise. Frankly, this is why I don’t take your contributions to this forum seriously. You seem to thrive on stirring up dissatisfaction, under the guise of pointing out issues, which is really not on. It’s really just concern trolling, and it commits the cardinal sin of being BORING.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2021
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  48. Gronk Honker

    Gronk Honker Active Member

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    Also, what really drives software improvement is not bug fixes — which are not software improvements, but instead remedial activities designed to conform the product to its predefined use cases — but instead user experience discovery, which identifies those player wants and needs that are not yet known or implemented.

    So I’m guessing you’ve had zero experience with software development of any kind — it shows in your inability to distinguish remedial bug fixing processes that ensure a product meets its current objectives from improvement processes that are designed to take overall product quality forward.

    As a result, I find it completely laughable (in the most Dunning-Kruger fashion) that you have the temerity to try to call out the quality of DTG’s QA process.
     
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  49. Gronk Honker

    Gronk Honker Active Member

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    To put what I’m saying about bug fixes vs product improvement in an analogy everyone can understand:

    BUG FIXING: I buy a shirt and it’s missing a button, so I sew one on. Do I have an new and improved shirt? No, I merely have the same old shirt that I was supposed to have, only now its bug is fixed. Sure it works “better”, but actually it only works as well as it was supposed to work. It’s not really an improvement, it’s just repair.

    PRODUCT IMPROVEMENT: If I want to create a new, improved shirt, I’ll go talk to fashion people to check out the fashions that are coming in and to work out what fancy new sewing techniques are becoming available. Then, I’ll create a stylish new shirt using these new knowledges that makes fashion people think I’m making better shirts than before. Think adding steam, or French routes, or raildriver support.
     
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  50. Samo1

    Samo1 Well-Known Member

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    Of course DTG do a lot of good work but that should be expected if they are charging consumers for their work, the trouble is it’s the problems with DLC that always drag that content down on release until it’s fixed, that could be days or months tucked away on the roadmap, good for you if your happy with that, some people are wiser than simply jumping in regardless and giving out cash for an unfinished product
     
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