At the WSR route you have some nice stretches going downhill with a slope up to 1.5%. I notice that the train brake is brake far too much, but if you use the loco brake you can control sped very accurately. I would like if this may be a common practice for UK railway drivers? Would it harm the engine or consist in real life to do so? These engines do not have a dynamic brake, if they had it would be more likely to use the dynamic brake.
I think the common practice is on and off, bring it down a few mph, let the speed build up and re-apply but I could be wrong.
I will admit I have done this a few times going down a gradient with a 10mph limit on Tees Valley Line.
I personally often use the loco brakes because it allows for much more precision in braking, also for station stops, as loco brakes apply and release almost instantly. Probably not realistic as it'll put too much pressure on the loco brakes I suppose, but it works in the game. I guess the more realistic option would be to use the train brakes, drop a few mph below speed limit, release the brakes, gain a bit of speed (I suppose ending up a few mph above the speed limit wouldn't be too much of an issue?), and apply train brakes again. But I find that option to be more complicated to achieve, especially at the 5mph speed limit section (which I tend to ignore anyways, because I see no point in driving 5mph there). :P
I also just use loco brakes for fine tuning train brake or when shunting a few wagons only. For old british engines the train brake is a pain as in class 31 as it's very slow but the rule appears to be apply and release train brake fast to achieve lower braking force when needed. Cheers
In the UK, we never used the loco brake alone for controlling train speed on a downhill section, a big no! (Unless light engine). The possibility of locking the wheels up on the loco without realising is too great, creating wheel flats and an expensive trip out of service to the wheel lathe. The UK use distributors on air, which are far more forgiving on multiple train brake applications, allowing a much faster auxiliary reservoir recharge time, and no real possibility of "pissing your air away", which can happen in railways using triple valves. Route knowledge is key on the mainline. The WSR is slow so use the train brake often to control speed. On the real railway, think about what is ahead...you don't have to crest a hill at the maximum speed allowed, go over much slower, and then you may drift downhill much better. It's interesting that UK applications of train brake bring the loco brake on, whereas here where I drive now, it is best practise (in non-unusual situations) to blow off the loco brake when applying the train brake. This can of course change depending on train brake force, length, adhesion etc.
In good old Train Simulator we had a nice HUD showing us what to expect in the next mile or so. Unfortunately TSW doesn't have that and only displays info about your current location. I miss Train Simulators HUD
Thanks for all replies. Glad I am not the only one doing this bad practice. I will never do it again ...
I have no experience with WSR, but on Sand Patch Grade,making sure that you bail off the loco brake after you apply the train brake very much improves train behavior. Otherwise, the minimum application of train brake will eventually bring your train to a complete stop, even on the steepest part of the grade. The bail off makes it so that the minimum application is not quite enough and you can adjust with the dynamic brakes. I suspect that the physics of applying the locomotive brake with a full train are a bit off. I can’t imagine that with a heavy train the locomotive brake would have much effect on speed and, as mentioned above, you run the risk of locking up the loco wheels. Only a select few TS locos model this, IIRC. Among them the Searchlight Simulations CP AC4400 and Smokebox’s FEF.
AIUI proper procedure on a downgrade is to use the dynamic brake, full-time, to hold close to constant speed, then periodically as necessary* use the train brake to bleed off 5-10 mph (baling off the loco brake before releasing. Lather, rinse, repeat. It's a very bad idea to try to "ride" any friction brake down a mountain. One thing you can't do is try to drive like you would a car, holding a constant speed uphill and down. *Sometimes if you're lucky you'll have a surplus of dynamic braking power (light train, big locos) and will never have to touch an air brake
Interesting! That makes sense about not using the friction brake all the way. I wonder if things are different with modern equipment. I have always thought that blended braking meant a set on the train brake with speed dialed in by the dynamic. I have also assumed that you should bail off the loco brake quickly. However, this would not be the first time I have been wrong and it certainly won't be the last! My only experience behind the throttle (aside from a wonderful anniversary present where my wife arranged for me to drive a steam engine for a half hour) is at my PC. anthony.wood are you out there?
Another risk from using only the loco brake with a full train is bunching up the cars, which causes them to push forward into the loco and pushing it forward, and accelerating and pulling them apart again puts stress on the couplers. These aren't really modeled in TSW though.
I think in reality, the air brake valve should be used to control the overall train speed when going downhill, and the separate brake valve should be used when there is no load. However, some trains also have electric brakes to reduce speed.
I am aware of the dynamic brakes. The UK engines do not have a dynamic brake, so that is not an option. For US trains, for TS Matt recommends to set the train brake and then use the dynamic brake to adjust speed. I am not really sure this is correct, but I also know that depending on circumstances the dynamic brake is not enough. The improved train brakes release so slow that you must be very careful on the amount of braking. Also it takes long to fully charge the brake compressor again, so you cannot use the train brakes frequently to reduce speed as you suggest. We are going a bit off topic. My question si specific on the UK diesel engines, like class 31, class 20, class47 and so on.
Thank you for your comments. You have a real driver experience? I am looking for how it works in real life specifically for UK locomotives without dynamic brakes. For me this is complicated enough for this discussion. At WSR using the loco brake a bit works excellent in the simulation. Most of the time 25% application is enough to prevent going downhill. to fast.
I refer you to my previous answer, I also have experience working 20, 31, 37, 47 etc for BR and latter, EWS.
I most definitely have no real world experience and I didn’t mean to hijack your thread. I will start a new thread for North American diesels. I have enjoyed getting to know the UK practices on this thread and find the differences fascinating.
I definitely do accuse you or anyone from hijacking the thread, at least I do not want to do that, but just notice it is going a bit off topic, which may be confusing instead of clearing the issue. If it feels like I accuse anyone, I apologize here.
So this is the question for Kiwi and any other RL drivers: how do UK trains handle grades, if they don't have dynamic brakes?
In the UK, there are no mountain passes or vast, sweeping plains, and so no need for dynamic braking. The two longest and steepest grades I worked on were Beattock and Shap the "Lickey" is the other famous (in UK) one. For interest, they are 1:49ish (2% ish?) and both had a depot in the steam days for working bankers to assist freight and heavily loaded passenger services! The Lickey is 1:38 from memory, in the midlands. As a youngster in the early '80s, I fondly recall the electrics breezing up Shap with a fully loaded Speedlink service, and no less in wonder as a Class 25 hauled Carnforth trip slowly negotiated its way down to Tebay on vacuum brakes. Not sure if you had the pleasure of vacuum brakes @solicitr? I will repeat my post way above and say that grades are handled with the loco (independent) off, as they come on when applying train brake anyway, get off that loco brake!!
A long heavy train over Sand Patch shouldn't even react to a loco brake application...apart from wheel flats, and nothing else but a strong smell of brake block wafting up.
Not loco brakes- like they would make a difference! I meant slamming on the train brake too hard all at once.
Continuously applying and releasing the brakes to stay close to the line speed on downhill sections is one of my favourite things about driving old British locos. Getting the slight delay in the brakes applying timed right and the same for releasing them again makes me happy. On NTP you can get into a kind of rhythm as the gradients stay fairly constant. WSR is a bit more up and down and much harder to remember where all the gradient changes are. Always the train brake when hauling something, never the loco brake.
You hit the nail on the head there stujoy! Negotiating a downhill run on Shap and Beattock, on a freight train with the next passenger up your tail, meant a loop stop, and therefore a hard brake into a 15 mph set of points to the loop. It was a great feeling, mostly of relief... That feeling wained as you were told by Carlisle or Motherwell signal box that they "hope you had a good book to read" heh.
