PC Problem Line Bakerloo

Discussion in 'Troubleshooting' started by Franck69, Jan 16, 2021.

  1. A Big Chungus

    A Big Chungus Active Member

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    It is very strange indeed, DTG definitely need to address this in a patch or give us a more detailed tutorial in game on how this train actually operates. Just telling us how to start and stop it is not enough. Explain the safety features. Explain every interactive button we can use. There are services on this route of 40 minutes upwards. Because this glitch is of a random nature, it can occur at the second to last station, resulting in a huge loss of time, and will no doubt put many players off this route and potentially the game all together. You mentioned in a previous post that flipping some switches raises the gauge to 11, why is this not explained in game?! That is a HUGE safety net so it should never drop below 4.5, compared to 6.0!
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2021
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  2. TS_trainspotter

    TS_trainspotter Active Member

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    I got this issue too. You can get around it but you will have to keep an eye on the Main Reservoire (MR) needle which is usually set at about 5.9-6.0. If you brake and release and the needle stays under 5.6, try putting reverser to neutral and than back to forward, and move your handle between "release" and "EP brake 1 hold" notches. As soon as you put the handle into EP brake 1 notch, keep an eye on the needle, and as soon as it starts to drop put the handle back into release, the pressure will now rise again. If you fail, try again, it may take a few attempts. The issue will come back a few minutes later, please repeat the steps above.
    I don't know why this procedure fixes the problem, but for me it is working. You will delay your train but at least you would be able to complete your service :)
     
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  3. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    This should be mandatory tutorial and/or manual content for EVERY loco. There should not be a single operable switch, button, knob or valve in the cab whose function is not explained.

    And it's not like manual length is constrained by printing costs any more!

    I defend DTG in most things, but their documentation SUCKS, and it's been getting worse since TSW2020 not better.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2021
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  4. A Big Chungus

    A Big Chungus Active Member

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    Surely it would enhance the whole simulation aspect to have an in depth tutorial? There's more to driving a train than stop and go! Why not add another tutorial where all of the safety features etc are explained? I sure would love in real life if all you had to do to drive the London underground was understand how to accelerate and brake! I would get a job there straight away!

    Half of the more detailed stuff is in the online manual as well. I know it's pretty rare these days, but for those without Internet, they would be missing this information. The in game manual option just states to go online. They should definitely consider adding these manuals in game too.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2021
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  5. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    The online manual doesn't explain all that much either.
     
  6. John S

    John S New Member

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    I've had this too - very frustrating. The main brake reservoir depletes and cannot be recharged. I've even gone back to a "cold and dark" startup procedure, but this doesn't fix it either which is very strange. In all cases it happened after I approached a station a little fast and had to use extra braking to stop by the stop board. And once done, there was no apparent way out other than to a previous save point and start again carefully..

    Also a bit miffed that my Raildriver doesn't work with the Cl377 on the Southern Coastway........
     
  7. IrishSpud

    IrishSpud Member

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    So, a bug fix has been removed from the Roadmap because DTG's are unable to recreate the problem, and as it happens to only a few people they won't investigate it further. This maybe the reason our power issue won't be resolved. Other people have said the response was the issue can't be recreated, so if they can't recreate it they can't fix it. So either it's a bug we have to deal with or we need to figure out if we are doing something wrong.
    I am doubting myself and thinking it's a me problem. :|
     
  8. scienceravenclaw

    scienceravenclaw New Member

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    TSW 2 got a ~200 MB update in the recent days and I decided to try it again with the Bakerloo Line. I openend the window and I used the override switch behind the driver's seat. The issue was not ocuring again but I cannot say if they have fixed this now...

    Edit: I have not used the save feature in the update yet. It seems that the save feature causes this issue.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2021
  9. A Big Chungus

    A Big Chungus Active Member

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    Just to add, what RotorHed mentioned on a previous page, about using the compressor and governor switch on the right side of the cabin, has helped me no end. I used to worry about my MR gauge dipping below 5, as after this it would not recharge, and when gauge dips below 4.5, you are buggered. By using Rotorhed's tip, by using these switches my MR gauge has increased up to a maximum of 55 currently, and is not even dipping below 45, so PLENTY of wiggle room here!

    Screenshot_20210228-135416_Gallery.jpg
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2021
  10. SamTDS

    SamTDS New Member

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    yes there are seven braking positions however this covers 2 independent systems, the electro pneumatic (EP) brake and the Westinghouse brake. the only time you would use the maximum of either 2 is if the braking action is not enough, ep2 min is what is normally used then down to ep1 on the final carriage length for a smooth stop.
     
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  11. Tanglebones

    Tanglebones Well-Known Member

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    So, I'm not saying my problem is the same one as everyone else is having, but it sure sounds like it - come to a stop as usual, open/shut doors, then find that the train is unable to move. It usually happens close to the end in either direction, with only one or two stops to go, though can happen anywhere on the line. I've also noticed that, immediately before it, sometimes the brakes aren't operating as normal - in other words when I go at my normal coast-until-it-stops position, using Lap, I find myself stopping far earlier than I normally do, as if the brakes were somehow still on.

    Investigating that, I found that I can clear the problem 100% of the time (so far) by simply cutting out the EP Brake switch (rear panel, right-hand side of train), moving the handle to 'service application', listening for the hiss, and then when I put the handle back to the move positions the train operates as normal. I let it get up to speed and then cut in the EP Brakes switch while in the tunnel and things are back to normal.

    I'm going to do more experimenting to see if I can induce the problem at will, but so far that simple solution has worked every time. Hopefully it does for you guys too.

    PS - BTW, I've played the Bakerloo line for hundreds of hours now, and this only started happening a month or so ago. My train technique didn't change, but something else definitely did.
     
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  12. IrishSpud

    IrishSpud Member

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    I must try that next time I've the issue.
    If the brakes must be cut-out then shouldn't this be explained in he manual? The response I got to my ticket was to "refer to the manual". But the manual says nothing about brakes/brake pressure. If many people are having issues with the brakes then clearly there's an issue with the brakes or it's not explained in the tutorial/manual. DTG's have not even responded to this thread :|
     
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  13. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Interesting!
     
  14. scienceravenclaw

    scienceravenclaw New Member

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    Update:
    I just played the Schnellfahrtstrecke in Aachen with the Talent 2. Everything was working fine until I saved the game in a station and resumed it at the next day. The train is not movable and the red box appears like in the Bakerloo line although I was stopping at the station and they were no issues before.

    It seems that the saving feature is causing some bugs and makes the current mission unplayable. This must be fixed!
     
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  15. Pinguinie

    Pinguinie Active Member

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    One solution is: BakerlooLine is bugged.

    Even if the "Sifa" / HUD has not been switched on, it will come on. Look for the yellow light on the right.

    When you start the Mission & Roadmap, it may be lit (bugged).

    So press the "Q" (unlocking on the PC) key once and then it should actually work.

    I suspect Dovetail accidentally installed a safety switch somewhere on the line and activated the train there, so that it decelerates for no reason. Similar to the security system for signals on German routes.

    Why they don't find it, however, is a mystery to me.
     
  16. RotorHed

    RotorHed Member

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    I have a save state where this problem exists. I tried your recovery method and no joy.

    One thing to question though - you say you hear a “hiss” at service application. I don’t get that. I do though get a hiss at the shutdown position ...

    The bakerloo line does have a kind of safety system modelled and I think that’s why the train comes to a halt sometimes.

    The real train as far as I can find, has four brake systems.

    1. Rheostat (dynamic)
    2. Electro pneumatic (Westcode)
    3. Westinghouse (air brakes)
    4 Spring activated (parking) brake.

    That fourth type - Spring - engages if there is a loss of air pressure in the main reservoir - I think the uncommanded braking in the sim some experience is that system engaging (or at least a DTG approximation of it) when the MR gets too low (somewhere below 4.4 bar - could be 3.8 ish but i haven’t tested).

    I think the sim is doing the right thing to engage that brake when the MR pressure falls. But its still not clear to me what triggers the MR pressure to fall and be unrecoverable ...
     
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  17. Tanglebones

    Tanglebones Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I did a run last night where my trick worked once. Then, two stations from the end I slowed down in the tunnel for a red and noticed that my coasting ability was severely hampered - some brakes were on somewhere and before I could give it a burst of speed it came to a premature stop. This time, the throttle box was red and my trick no longer worked. I noted MR was low (forget the number) and so I set about trying everything I could, flipping switches at random and trying to get it back. Eventually. MR was zero and nothing I could do would get it up again. I even shut down that cab and made my way to the other end, apologizing to all the zombies sitting in the dark as I passed, and tried starting up the other cab - no joy.

    I have that mod where you can open the door and so turned on the flashlight and walked through the tunnel a bit. I'm sitting in my house with the lights on, and a cat purring on my desk and I still can't help getting a little spooked at seeing that dark tunnel and the train headlights staring at me, lol. I then walked up to the previous station and saw a train there on a red, of course. There should be a reward of some kind for shutting down the whole network, haha.

    I really wish I understood how the brakes work on TSW's implementation of this train. It looks like there are at least two different problems - that trick works with one (and it still works for me), and doesn't work on the other. If I knew how to tag a dev I'd ask Matt to lend us a hand on this, or at least post an explanation for what's supposed to happen with MR. This is really happening, and frequently, and it ticks me off a little that we're left to figure it out week after week with total silence on their part.
     
  18. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Except that, at least in the form of the bug I experience, the problem is not a brake application- it's pure loss of throttle. When it happens while moving between stations- and it does, the train keeps rolling, very gradually losing speed until eventually it stops. And in stations with a grade at the platform, releasing the standard brake results in rolling backwards!
     
  19. RotorHed

    RotorHed Member

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    The red box is the throttle interlock. It activates when things like the doors are open (or the driver side window). I believe the reason it goes red in the low brake pressure scenario is because the spring brake is applied so the throttle control is cut out.

    I’ve never been able to recover from that scenario either. Luckily my repeatable save is out at Stonebridge Park in the daylight so I don’t get any zombie apocalypse vibes!

    There is some degree of simulation of the compressor functions but it’s got at least one bug that lets the pressure rise continuously. You can trigger that by waiting for the MR pressure to start recharging normally (ie get the MR pressure down to 4.9 and let it start building up again) and then switch off the compressor switch on the rear wall before it recharges fully. The effect of that is for the pressure just to keep rising. I’ve had it go over 100 hundred before I got bored.

    So either the compressor switch doesn’t disable the compressor or it’s actually the compressor regulator switch. But even if the latter is correct, the compressor should eventually reach a level it can no longer increase pressure. I read that was around 7 bar ...

    However I haven’t been able to exploit this (buggy?) behaviour of the compressor to overcome the loss of MR pressure once the MU is powered down.

    I think the difference here is your MR pressure hasn’t fallen low enough to engage the spring brake. You’ve got the same fault, you’re only seeing the beginning phase of it. When the MR gets low enough, the brakes do indeed engage and throttle box goes red signalling the throttle interlock is engaged.
     
  20. IfICanDream

    IfICanDream Active Member

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    I ran into this today. I hope it gets fixed.
     
  21. IfICanDream

    IfICanDream Active Member

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    I do the Save game while the game is running. So when I go back to it I at least have the throttle moving. And usually it allows me to keep going for a time. But not always indefinitely.
     
  22. RotorHed

    RotorHed Member

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    Yeah being in motion isn’t a guarantee to avoid it if you save at that time ...

    It seems to be linked to MR pressure. I saw in your screenshot yours is down at 4.4bar - the pressure normally recovers when it reaches 4.9bar so if it drops below that the problem is there regardless of if you’re moving or not. Then it’s just a matter of time (or brake applications) until it falls into the 4.4 bar range and the cab is undriveable.

    The only thing that seems to avoid it for me so far is not using the save function. But others have said they had even without saving so maybe that’s also just a matter of time ...
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2021
  23. IfICanDream

    IfICanDream Active Member

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    How should I boost the MR pressure?
     
  24. RotorHed

    RotorHed Member

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    Well you can exploit a different bug that lets the MR go crazy high - over 100bar of pressure at least. But it still has to be done before the compressor bug - it’s doesn’t recover from it once that bug is present so it won’t save a run that is broken already.

    To do it monitor the MR. When it gets to 4.9bar (you can force this by sitting at brake 1 at a station for example) it’ll start to recharge. While it’s recharging switch off the compressor (switch is on the back wall). If you do that while it’s charging the charge process never ends. It just keeps raising the pressure.
     
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  25. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    I have now looked at this in some detail and I can confirm that the main problem is a brake problem that resists traction. There are many bugs here, but the main bug can be stated as follows:

    BUG 1: It is possible to enter a state when the MR value is below 4.0 and where the compressor will not switch on to recharge the MR whatever action is taken by the player (NB: most actions will normally switch the compressor on and charge it to 6.0, but sometimes nothing works). In such circumstances any applied traction will be fully resisted by the brakes, as traction only becomes effective when the MR > 4.5. This is a game breaking bug.

    To get to this stage (where the MR falls below 4.0), one or more other bugs have to be triggered in sequence - and actions to trigger these bugs have to be done in sequence. The actions are different on PS4 compared to PC, and could also vary according to the controller device used (and there are over 20 combinations of hardware....). The situation in BUG 1 can easily be contrived anywhere on the Bakerloo route, but the outcome (loss of traction) seems to mostly only happen on the open section at, or north of, Queen's Park. (NB: I have managed to lose traction at E&C N/B at the start of a service, but this is very difficult to repeat). The second bug can be described as follows:

    BUG 2: When using a gaming device other than the mouse/tracker cursor+LMB (or L3 + X/A) to manipulate the combined brake/throttle, the Dead Man's Handle (DMH) can be lifted unintentionally and momentarily, causing a nudged depletion of the MR value. This momentary engagement of the DMH only occurs when moving into or out of Brake setting 1 (B1) or brake setting 2 (B2). Two "nudges" down can occur if quickly moving from neutral to B2. The lift into DMH can be observed in the animation of the handle. This is (presumably) unintended as the MR depletion will not occur when using cursor+LMB to change the brake/power handle position (and the handle cannot be observed to lift when using the mouse).

    BUG 3a: If the MR is at a value of 4.9 or 5.0 (and especially if it is decreasing at that point), then moving the brake handle into B2 can cause the following sequence to occur:

    (a) The yellow lamp lights, and the DMH will raise
    (b) If there is no immediate reaction to move out of B2, then a traction interlock occurs (this is independent of any passenger door interlock), and the red box appears (this is not what cause the loss of power - read on)
    (c) The MR value will jump down from 4.9 to 4.0 and will then drop in value to 2.4 (anywhere on the route) or to 0.9 (on some gradients north of Queen's Park)
    (d) The situation above is (usually) immediately recoverable by "purposely" moving from B2 into B3 or B1, which will cause the traction interlock to disappear (and the light to extinguish), and for the compressor to switch on, which will slowly charge the MR back to 6.0 (if you let it)
    (e) However, if you move the brake controller around B0, B1, B2, and B3 when the MR is charging between the values of 4.0 and 4.9, and you then let the handle rest in B2, you risk re-starting the above sequence from (a) above.
    (f) AND THEN: If you leave the train alone at step (c) above for any length of time, or if you start randomly moving the power handle (including into power settings to move the train) during the re-charging phase in step (d), or if you switch to the outside camera at step (c) or step (d), then there is a risk that the compressor will permanently shut down, leading to Bug 1 manifesting itself with a game-breaking outcome. But this is intermittent - it is likely to be memory related, or it could be related to the random failure of inputs/outputs for the MR, as modelled in Simugraph (maybe the state of the MR becomes unknown to the model for a few ms...?),

    BUG 3b: Depending on your hardware's button latency and deadzone, if you are in B1 or B3, then you can force the situation above (in Bug 3a) without the MR being at 4.9 or 5.0. A very fast "half-press" of R1/R2 from B1/B3 into B2 will cause the DMH to lift, even if the MR is at 6.0, and the sequence starting from (a) above becomes possible..

    BUG 4: If Bug 1 manifests itself, then there is no way to re-set the train's braking system (key out, reverser off, power shutdown), and re-start it from cold - and this should be a standard feature for all trains, on all routes). This sounds like a feature request, but really it is a bug.

    1. Forced Steps to reproduce:
    There are two ways to reproduce the pre-requisites for Bug 1 (forced and natural), and they are different for PS4 and PC..... You can force Bug 2 and Bug 3 by standing stationary anywhere on the route, and then:

    For PS4 (cycling MR): Select brake setting B1; wait for the MR to fall to 5.0 (on PS4 the MR value usually cycles between 4.9 and 6.0, when the brake handle is in setting B1), alternate the brake setting between B1 and B2 until you see the yellow lamp light, then rest the controller in B2 until the traction interlock red box is lit. You have now initiated Bug 3a at step (a). If the MR is not cycling in B1, then use the method below for the PC.

    For PC (static MR):The cycling of the MR value between 4.9 and 6.0 occurs less frequently on PC, and the initial state is normally somewhere above 5.0 (normally fully charged at 6.0). You don't have to wait for the value to fall from 6.0 because you can lower it in steps. If the MR value is 6.0 then put the brake lever into neutral, then nudge down to B1 to deplete the MR slightly. Then nudge it down to B2. Then nudge up to neutral and repeat. When you reach an MR value of about 5.1, quickly alternate the brakes between B1 and B2. If the "nudge down" for the MR is big enough to break through the 4.9 barrier, then it will immediately drop to 4.0, and you get Bug 3a above. However, the compressor might switch on at MR value of 4.9, and the MR will start re-charging to 6.0. If the MR then stays at 6.0, repeat the process in this paragraph for the PC. However, if the compressor cycles back down to 4.9, then now use the process described for the PS4.

    The above "forced steps" are just to illustrate the pre-requisite bugs (Bugs 2 and 3), so that they can be easily reproduced, tested, and eliminated, which might fully cure/prevent the manifestation of the main bug (Bug 1). But.... these bugs can occur in (perfectly reasonable) natural gameplay. The steps in natural gameplay appear to be more random, but they actually follow a set of principles that could lead any player to initiate Bug 2 and Bug 3, and set up Bug 1.

    2. Natural steps to reproduce:
    You can trigger Bug 3 in normal gameplay, and it is easier to do it on PC than PS4. To do it, you need to come to a rest and at the moment of stopping, and you must:

    - have a value of MR that is very close to 5.0; and,
    - then switch into brake setting B2 (from B1 or B3), to nudge the MR through the 4.9 barrier; and,
    - stay in B2

    To get into the above situation, you must first (unwittingly) trigger Bug 2, and to do that you must go through a sequence of events that reduced your MR from 6.0 to 5.0. And that sequence of events is highly likely to be either:

    - a repeated (~ x10) sequence of light braking and coasting (say, if you are trying to sail close to a speed limit), in which case the MR will deplete in small bites from 6.0 to 5.0; or
    - have a single sustained period of braking, from a reasonably high speed (40mph) that lasts for about six or seven seconds (the time required to deplete the MR from 6.0 to 5.0); or
    - a combination of both of the above.

    And the above scenarios occur very frequently (and naturally) in the following situations:
    - almost anywhere north of Queen's Park where there is potential to get up to 40 mph (sustained braking)
    - on the N/B approach to Warwick Avenue (sustained braking)
    - on the N/B approach to Queen's Park (sustained braking, plus feathered 15mph climb)
    - the exit from London Road (particularly vicious very slow speed feathered descent with B1/coast)

    It doesn't generally happen in the underground section in natural play because the speeds aren't high enough, the distance between stops are short, and the MR usually has the opportunity to fully re-charge to 6.0 at each stop.

    Other Notes:
    - If you are on PS4 the MR usually cycles when in brake setting B1, if you are stationary. But when the train is moving, the MR doesn't re-charge in the same way, so you can incrementally deplete your MR with short bursts of braking.

    -----------------------------

    Bug 5: When I was on PC, I noticed another bug, which is that the power button on the XBox controller would also (intermittently) cause the view to Zoom in, which is intensely annoying

    Bug 6: When I was on PS4, I attempted to test the "save game" theory in this thread. When I saved the module twice in the same session the PS4 reported an error. When I later tried to re-start TSW2, TSW2 would not restart (at all). TSW2 only re-started after I replaced all of the game save files with a month old set, destroying all my SHS and IoW progress. I strongly suggest that anyone on PS4 makes a back-up copy of their progress, and maintains it regularly, until this is investigated and fixed (if possible).


    I hope this information is helpful.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2021
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  26. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Man, that is OUTSTANDING work!.

    Please, please, please file a ticket with tech support, including all of the above verbatim. The primary reason they haven't tried to fix the problem, is that they haven't been able to reproduce it.

    ===================
    Which is pretty much exactly my braking technique coming into station stops
     
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  27. Slemcer

    Slemcer Well-Known Member

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    I'm very sorry, but that's not the primary reason. It's quite obvious that the primary problem cannot be found in the software, instead it's a case of pebkac at the developer's site. (for those who are unfamiliar with this term: problem exists between keyboard and chair)
    I mean, how else can it be that a user is quickly able to find out how to do it, and the developer isn't .....
     
  28. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Because developers are spending their time developing, not playing games?

    This constant low-level murmur along the lines of "DTG don't care" is something approaching slander. They have all of four people trying to fix countless bugs in, and adding upgrades to, some thirty routes.
     
  29. Slemcer

    Slemcer Well-Known Member

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    I would suggest they start playing their game ... ;)
    But seriously, the developer has (or should have) other methods to find bugs and fix them, first of all a deep insight into the software.
    It's one of the core talents of a software developer to find bugs even with a minimum of description, if you ask me. And I'm also developing software, btw.
     
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  30. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Yeah - in short, make sure you are in B1 ("hold") once you have stopped (whatever braking you use while you were slowing to a stop). That's what I do (in preparation to move into power), and the problem should evaporate for you completely (if not, let me know....!). You might still (very very rarely) encounter the start of the MR issue when moving and braking in B2, in which case drop out of B2 (purposefully, with one move).

    This workaround doesn't mean the multiple bugs do not need to be addressed (as most players will never read this thread, and 30% experience the problem). The whole MR/BP braking system needs to be reviewed for all three platforms - especially if there is any link to a core patch. Someone else mentioned another bug in this thread:

    Bug 7: It is possible to charge the MR to 100 (see details upthread).
    ------------------

    I am sorry to disappoint you though, as I do not submit tickets. I do not (currently) discourage other people from submitting tickets, but I won't, as a personal choice. This is because of the horrific attitude I received in August 2019 (when I submitted x30 major bug reports, mostly worse than this one) when I was told that there was nothing they could do with my "feedback", and that I should research the Forum for solutions (so I then joined the forum....!).... As it happens, over the next two years they fixed almost every single one of my bug reports.

    If DTG implement an open public bug tracking system, then I would gladly input into that - but I will never again report stuff into an opaque pit of a black hole. Unless I get an apology, maybe. ;-)
     
  31. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    One of the worst things about this bug is related to the tutorial. Once you have completed the Bakerloo Line tutorial, a new user is immediately dropped into the scenario starting at London Road (assuming that "autoload Journey" is on).. And this scenario requires you, at the start, to:

    - achieve a very slow speed (and maintain it),
    - dive down a very steep gradient towards a red light;
    - feather between coasting and B1 application (which eats the MR is small bites); and,
    - make a stop, likely to be with a firmer application of B2, at the red (that is what I would do)..

    And these are precisely the conditions that trigger the pre-requisites for the traction loss bug (as I have described above), so the bug is very likely to happen to a new user (PC or PS4), with a yellow light lit, a fake bright red traction lock box (B2 applied at MR 5.0), and a triple high pitched beep going off..... You can't switch off the audible warning lamp when in B2, so you will be pushed into going into neutral (if you follow the tutorial instructions), which means you might SPAD the red. And if the new user panics and does unexpected things, then the bug has a good chance to manifest itself (MR < 4.0), so that the compressor fails and no traction can be applied.

    Total nightmare for a new user. Just sayin'. ;-O
     
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  32. gittes#8304

    gittes#8304 New Member

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    Thanks for a lot of useful information! I have a question: on the save file that you linked before - where the bug would always happen - did you try using the MR exploit before reaching the bug-triggering station to see if it can be avoided this way? Is so, a bug would remain, but at least the run would be recoverable (with hindsight) after reloading the save state and using the exploit.
     
  33. RotorHed

    RotorHed Member

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    On the save I have yes before the compressor “fails” I can make the brake pressure go very high and then use the residual for the remainder of the journey.

    The problem is you’d need to sit at the station for ages to let the pressure get a high enough to have enough for each brake point.

    I haven’t tried to do that to see exactly how high it would need to be. Maybe I’ll have a go for fun later
     
  34. mancunian#7861

    mancunian#7861 Active Member

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    This problem, for me, on a PC using keyboard, happens in A Round Haul after pulling forward from Harrow and Wealdstone when you have to stop and follow some in-game instructions before walking the train to the front cabin to return to Queen's Park. It's then I can't move forwards ... red box around the brake/throttle number display and zero sound of compressor. It's just impossible to move. Yes from a saved game too. I had intended to try again from the start and try to complete the whole scenario in one go but, by the sound of it, exactly the same thing is likely to happen. :(

    What makes it the most frustrating is that I only decided to go to another Bakerloo line scenario was because of SPG Coal Loading where the *known* bug of the hopper not working kicked in. So that's now two different scenarios not working because of bugs. Totally ridiculous. :(
     
  35. mancunian#7861

    mancunian#7861 Active Member

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    OK just to let people know, I've just completed A Round Haul starting from the beginning and doing it all in one sitting. Thank goodness for that. Does it prove it has to be a bug if you save it then continue? I haven't disproved that but not using it on that route did enable me to complete it with no problem at all.
     
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  36. toucs

    toucs New Member

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    Greetings all. I'm a newbie, although quite an old one.
    I'll join the list of those having problems. Just purchased an Xbox S with the sole purpose of playing the tube and some trucking too.
    Having read through the various useful tips I have just completed one section without any loss of power. I will not save. I will stop in B1. And will make sure my MR remains above 5.0 Lets see how that goes. Fingers xxxd
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2021
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  37. mancunian#7861

    mancunian#7861 Active Member

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    Welcome and good luck, toucs. I've also got and play occasionally European Truckers but that's a toughie so prefer the trains atm. :)
     
  38. david2021

    david2021 New Member

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    I’m having the same problem I stopped at Piccadilly Circus right on the stop marker and When I went to get moving again the train did not apply any power, I checked the saloon lighting and it was off so I am under the assumption that I have stopped on a dead part of the track. How am I supposed to get moving again, considering I stopped right on the marker.
     
  39. mancunian#7861

    mancunian#7861 Active Member

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    As far as I can gather from others, it's a known bug and at the moment, there's no fix or workaround. I've had to leave the Bakerloo Line for now and go to one of the others.
     
  40. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    There are two workarounds for the problem discussed in this thread, as follows:

    1. (On PC) - Only use the mouse and Left Mouse Button to manipulate the Traction Brake Controller
    2. (All) - When stopped in a station, place the Traction Brake Controller into the first rheo braking position ("Hold")

    You only need to do one of the above workarounds. Use workaround No.2 if you do not want to use a mouse.

    The bugs will still need to be fixed (for the 99.9% of people that do not know the workarounds), but if my reproduction notes in the posts above are not sufficiently clear, then I would be happy for Adam to ask me for clarification on the process that I used to reproduce the bug.

    NB: I had never encountered the bug before (on PC or PS4), until I actively tried to reproduce it, and I then found it to be immediately easy to reproduce. If the Bakerloo Line DLC was only tested using a mouse on the PC then the bug would not have been discovered.

    NB2: The bug is worse on PC, compared to PS4. This is because the Main Reservoir has a much slower charging rate on PC, leaving the user open to triggering the first part of the bug (with the MR at 4.9) for a longer period of time.
     
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  41. mancunian#7861

    mancunian#7861 Active Member

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    Thank you SO much for that, angel. Very helpful to know. I'm going to try to finish SPG for the time being but when I have, I'll be back to Bakerloo and will remember what you said. Any idea why, for me at least so far, this 'breakdown' "only" happens at Piccadilly Circus and none of the stations prior to it? I can also see now why it's possible why testing couldn't reproduce it if, as you say, they only tested using a mouse but as most (?) tend to use keyboard, like me, you'd have thought they'd have tried/tested that too?!
     
  42. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    To be absolutely fair to DTG, this Bakerloo Line bug could genuinely "slip through the net". I have put in very many hours on Bakerloo on both PC and PS4 and never seen this bug because of the way that I drive it. I had seen it glitch a bit with the "wrong" red interlock box and yellow lamp (which I now understand, and can avoid this by not being in brake setting 2 for any length of time), but it never degenerated into the game-breaking bug, with loss of traction.

    But I took the reports in this thread seriously, investigated it, and reproduced it on my first run out. And I could force it on every single other run after that, if I wanted to. It took about two hours to isolate the precise (likely) causes, and then another two hours to figure out how to explain it clearly so that others could reproduce it.

    To fix this bug will require some hard coding changes (SimuGraph), making sure the same process to avoid MR leakage when moving between rheo settings applies on all platforms. There might also be some weird feedback loop in SimuGraph affecting the MR that somehow depends on, or is linked to, the track's gradient (+/- 0.1 bar). This can cause the max MR to reach 6.1 or 5.9, and when it is 5.9 there is a slightly increased chance to trigger the bug at the MR = 4.9 boundary (the trigger point for switching on the compressor).

    DTG might want to make sure (through testing) that the braking system's inputs from various devices line up robustly (in terms of deadzones, delay, repeat, lag, etc.) for a lot of device combinations on all three platforms, including gamepads, mice/trackpads, and keyboard, and maybe check variations for wired/wireless. But preferably, they won't need to do this at all, as long as the SimuGraph process is robust enough to cope with (and contain) all of the device combinations.

    This is not like the DB BR 101, which was tested on PC and X-Box, and simply assumed to work on PS4 (which does not appear to have been tested at all).
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2021
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  43. mancunian#7861

    mancunian#7861 Active Member

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    Fascinating as Mr Spock would have said ... he might have said interesting too. :D Is SimuGraph the thing that comes up after each scenario showing you the speed you did etc or this some kind of coding utility, for which I know nothing about ... coding that is? :D
     
  44. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    synthetic.angel, how do you drive so that the issue never pops up? Plainly my technique for a station stop invites it
     
  45. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Simugraph is the train physics-modeling engine that makes the whole game go.
     
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  46. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Simugraph is a DTG designed layer in the game which works out what the components of the train are doing at any given time, so when you put the throttle from 0 to 1 simugraph should work out which parts of the train react to that and do their thing, and what happens next (such as the engine throttling up which generates power which gets sent to the wheels or the motors or the generators etc)

    In other words it should be a schematic of the train IRL and do the physics and engineering work of getting a train moving, or stopping etc
     
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  47. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    If you are feathering the brakes on the way in to a station stop, then (especially on PC) you are inviting a chance for the first part of the bug. You will not have a problem the vast majority of the time, but since there are x20 stations you get to roll the dice on it quite a lot in any one session. But the key to avoiding this bug degenerating into traction failure (until it is patched) is what you do once you have stopped*. If, when you have stopped, you place the Traction Brake Controller into step 1 ("hold"), the game shouldn't break. If you do this, and the game still breaks for you, let me know, as I have never been able to reproduce the bug when doing this.

    To answer your question about my driving style, when braking, well... it varies. For most stops I will brake fairly late in step 2, then wind it up or down (once) depending on whether I have under-cooked it or over-cooked it. Once I have stopped I go straight to step 1 ("hold"). However, since I drive without the HUD signal marker, there are some curvy underground stations where you cannot sight the signal, which I assume might be red, so I brake early and heavily (step 3) for those ones, then coast it in on neutral, and then stop on step 1.

    I am not suggesting that my driving is particularly good, by the way... ;-)

    -----------------------
    *It might be possible to induce the bug when moving, but you'd have to do a bizarre sequence of braking manipulations of the TBC, which means you are likely to stop anyway.
     
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  48. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    As others have said, SimuGraph is a tool used to set-up the parameters for the train simulation. It is a bit like a flow-chart, where each box represents a device/process that has a variable state (or several variable states), plus inputs and outputs from/to other devices. This is a standard Unreal Engine tool, but labelled "SimuGraph" when applied to TSW, by DTG.

    So, for example, the Main Reservoir (MR) would be one box on the flow chart (although the MR might be broken down into three or four boxes). The MR would have a link to the Brake Pipe (and then to the brakes*), and links to the Compressor, and to the Traction Brake Controller (TBC). It also has a link to the Dead Man's Handle (DMH).

    The bug here (I believe) is created by crossed wires between the DMH and the "monitored status" of the TBC. SimuGraph thinks that when you move between braking steps 1 and 2, or 3 and 2, that you are wanting to release the DMH, which if left "up" will empty the MR to 0. Each time you move between the 1>2<3 braking positions the MR leaks 0.2 bar. When the MR reaches 4.9, and Simugraph sees this value, it turns on the Compressor to recharge the MR to 6.0 (and then switches it off at 6.0). However, the value might be 4.95 when you suddenly move the TBC, and this will drop the MR (via a brief unintended DMH release) to 4.75.... and this upsets SimuGraph because the sub 4.9 value is not expected, and then cuts the value to 4.0. If at this point you happen to be in rheo brake setting 2 then you get all the other stuff happen, as described in the reproduction notes above.

    BUT..... this is just my guess. It's a bit like trying to work out what a factory is making, by standing outside and listening to the sounds of the machines.

    The devs have far more tools at their disposal to diagnose and fix this bug, including (presumably) the insight on how the simulation was built in the first place.

    --------------

    *the thing that I can't work out with any level of certainty at all, is the apparent interaction of the MR with the track gradient..... it appears to me that the value of the gradient is fed back as a force applying to the brakes, which traverses through the flow chart in SimuGraph and amends the MR value, or range of values, which if true, is quite weird....

    **just as an aside, I am not convinced that the MR should have any direct link to TBC positions 1 and 2, because (I assume that) these are rheostatic braking positions, not air braking positions. If you explicitly want the DMH to activate (say, by selecting the TBC handle with the mouse by clicking it, with no drag), then the MR should respond with a full evacuation of the reservoir, not a 0.2 bar leak
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2021
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  49. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Your post here inspired me to share this District Dave link, in case anyone is interested:

    https://districtdavesforum.co.uk/thread/29936/rotary-pneumatic-accelerator-drivers-controls

    If you scroll through the discussion you will find three photographs of what appears to be a manual relevant to the 1972 stock's EP braking system, including a full description of all the braking positions, including how they are mechanically inter-linked and energised. If this is all implemented in TSW, then that would be impressive (if it worked)....!
     
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  50. mancunian#7861

    mancunian#7861 Active Member

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    Thank you to you and Bill for answering that. Yes, I understand now.
     

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