Possible North Wales Coastal & Extension Re-release

Is there any information available on this possibly going ahead. I've been trying to find out about any future plans for this and whilst it seems a popular opinion that it should happen there doesn't seem to be any sort of DTG statement/comment.

I am aware NWC is available in TS2018 but it seems like an oversight to not re-do an unbranded NWC when we've had unbranded releases of SWC and the Welsh Marches. It locks players out from an entire route, especially when the extension is completely unavailable, and being the only release of a Crewe station asset it's used in freeware route addons containing the Crewe area.

 

When DTG re-relased the South Wales Coastal and Welsh Marches route the information was only released to the public about two weeks before release that way any snags and testing should have been worked out.

Another company put things like a 185 on their page and that died a death

If you announce it earlier you get all the stupid remarks of "when is it coming out" and "take my money now"
So it might come out but don't expect anything from DTG until they are good and ready

 

Very annoying that. The game desperately needs one, especially Transpennine routes.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if it made a comeback of some point as unbranded, with fairly short notice as Peter says.
Niche community expectations are hard to manage, but it's also easy to sell things to niche communities without a big build up (see AP's 411/412 which was only publicised a day or two before release).

 

Same with the 700... the community hounded the dev so much they stopped development altogether and left the scene

 

Depends on how much you need a 185


Other versions available

 

It's odd how the unbranded rereleases have come out in reverse order so to speak with the most recent withdrawals being reintroduced first and would be buyers still waiting for North Coastal.

 

Is that the Fuller Sims version?

 

Yes, that is the one - I like the livery in the picture.
Reminds me of when they came out

 

That's what gripes me about NWC is that SWC and Welsh Marches were done very quickly to push them back out as DLC and this one has just been met with silence.

Whilst I agree Peter that some members of the TS community could learn some patience, in this specific instance it's not exactly a new request. It's something that has actively been taken out of the game and not replaced - special mention to the VT loco hauled pack too which was never replaced and yet I've heard many claim it contained the best version of a class 47 we have for TS.

For those of us who have arrived late to the party for some DLC, it can feel quite limiting. NWC + extension has gone, the VT 390 was removed way before the Avanti one came with WCML South, VT loco hauled pack has gone. There's also some US stuff that has gone missing, I can't help but feel there's a lack of foresight when it comes to releasing these packs knowing that they will have to remove them at some point. The community has some brilliant reskinners amongst itself and releasing none branded DLC has never been an issue unless it's restricting access to research I can't help but feeling the licensing is a bit needless.

There's a class 185 in development by Imbue Simulation, you can check them out of Facebook, the project got held up at the beginning of this year as they could not get access for sound - hopefully it will be able to continue once we are in better times as the model looks good.

 

I bought NWC wuth TS2018 on Humble in Jan - likely still there if you are keen for it.

 

I'm keen for the Holyhead extension, oh and the VT loco pack as mentioned previously to your post.

 

it’s just the base route, the extension is no longer to be had, I believe.

 

Yeah I know, that's my point.

 

SNAP...!!!

 

I was just about to install that when AP withdrew the 175, upon which it is based. They've relaunched it, but can't confirm whether the new one works with this or not.

 

So have you tried it - might just need some bin files changing.
And if you had the 175 EP before AP removed it you still have it and can still download it.

 

No.. I didn't have it. They withdrew it JUST before I went to buy it I intend to buy it again anyway, so will try.

 

While I in no way can confirm whether this is coming back or not, the precedent of unbranding SWC and putting it out in a new format suggests this is exactly what will happen with NWC as well. What I don't know is whether they will extend it to Stafford or not. While I suggested either Stafford or Shrewsbury, it was noted to me privately by someone that Crewe to Holyhead is literally the entire route from an operational standpoint, and that a train would not go direct from Shrewsbury to Holyhead, so while such an extension would aid a route merge to Swansea from Crewe, it might not be something you would ordinarily see on a timetable. Therefore, that brings Stafford into question, as it is feasible to drive a longer sleeper type service from London Euston all the way to Holyhead (again, not sure if it exists, but it's feasible operationally due to the layout of the lines) and Danny could add another route merging project to his list between a new NWC, Trent Valley, and WCML South merge. It will be nice to see Crewe to Shrewsbury connected somehow someday, but this might not be the place. Now, Shrewsbury to Liverpool? No idea.

So we'll see if the route gets extended to Stafford. Either way, precedent now seems to suggest an unbranding is a possibility. All that any of us normal folk can say is watch for news, and it'll be there probably two days before release if anything is developed (we tend not to have word on projects in advance). NOT having this route back would be a tremendous loss, but I also feel that older Workshop scenarios to Holyhead will not be able to function on any new route, so we'll have to start from scratch for Workshop content to Holyhead. This logic comes from the fact that drives to Swansea originally used the South Wales Coastal, and there is now a new route called South Wales Main Line. So naturally, North Wales Main Line is sure to become the new offering, if any.

The next question is whether this precedent will travel to America. We still have Marias Pass and Stevens Pass blocked off, and also Cajon Pass (though it's much weaker and more buggy, it might be fixed with the new patch today). The BNSF Loco Pack has 11 scenarios for Marias Pass, so if that gets the BNSF unbranded from all three trains and from Marias itself, another livery can be installed on a train on Marias Pass and the route re-released with that new branding plus all unbranded BNSF trains from the BNSF Loco Pack. I'm sure this is something that would sell like hotcakes for Workshop use, meaning that updating the assets would be a bad idea. If they do decide to update the assets, the original asset pack literally needs to be kept to ensure Workshop compatibility (a separate AP file for compatibility purposes). Hopefully the old scenarios will all continue to work on any new version, because there is a ton unlocked by just that route. Not sure what locos use Stevens, but I remember seeing one in the past and it might be a good bundle with a re-released and unbranded Stevens Pass.

 

I really want NWC to come back, because I couldn't buy the extension, and also BNSF content, I don't care if I don't have a logo, because I'm buying the route to drive and not the brand. If they manage to make the steam workshop scenarios compatible with future re-releases it’s great, so you don’t need to use a program to change trains.

 

I can't comment too much on US DLC as I don't know a lot about US railroads, however looking at extended NWC on the eastern end, a triangle from Shrewsbury - Crewe and Shrewsbury - Chester would be the best option instead of extending down to Stafford.

The would allow the Shrewsbury - Holyhead runs, and a continuation of the South Wales - Manchester services whilst also allowing full runs of freight services such as Deeside - Margam steel trains.

However I do not wish to plague DTG with request on request my wish is just for NWC + Holyhead extension to be released unbranded.

 

DTG would probably not want to invest the time in two additions for an already completed route from 2018 if they take the time to convert it. If anything, the best that can happen for Sherwsbury is for Bossman Games to create another route that heads through Shrewsbury and into Chester.

They could make a standalone from Shrewsbury to Manchester. That would be a decent length. The option with Chester is not as pretty. Remaining lines from Shrewsbury include a line going west and branching at Cyffordd Dyfi, one going south to Aberystwyth and the other going north to Minfford, which I believe has is the Conwy Valley line (close to it anyway) that is an actual route someone created to edit onto the North Wales Coastal install. Continuing on the main line terminates at Pwilheli. Back to Shrewsbury means the only option to Chester is a local line. Small in size, and would not be worth full price, only a reduced price point. Depends on the work done with it.

Back to Shrewbury. South is covered already from Newport. The eastern route, the Cotswold Line, is under development and already appears as flagged on the Umap of all TS routes. The northern route has some branching options. One is the local line to Chester as noted, and could be made as a lower-cost add-on that requires the original Newport line to operate (thus potentially allowing scenarios from the original route to potentially appear and be able to add in new AI from north of the terminus portal, which can still stay as on other routes). Another option stays on main lines and takes the Shrewsbury and Crewe Line, as it's called, to Crewe, and continue to Manchester linking to that area. We can also detour at Crewe for the eventual link to Stafford. This would be an option that would not require DTG to visit Stafford as part of a North Wales Coastal re-release project, though a route merge would them require four DLC instead of the three that such a move would allow for. If NWC does get a revisit with new rolling stock to replace the Arriva stuff (and it very well could since SWC got a redo), then I would hope that the new rolling stock is something that takes the new branch to Stafford and that it gets added to this route. But knowing it can also be accessed from Shrewsbury as a brand new standalone DLC means that can still be done, though more would be loaded into memory that doesn't need to be for a route merge. And unless we have a service from Stafford through to Shrewsbury in some form, it's pointless to merge those two.

So there are options.

 

As far as Cajon Pass is concerned, that route IMO should be left behind, its so old as it was built before the BNSF triple track project in 2008 (And was around during Kuju's Rail Simulator), if anything a new one should be built with the crossovers added, and the start and end points moved to UP's West Colton and Yermo Yards, but I don't see DTG doing that.

As far as Marias Pass and BNSF is concerned, Dovetail themselves hasn't touched that license since the whole licensing debacle has started. So while I don't expect them to do it, though however, it would not be impossible, as the locos and most rolling stock that came with Marias Pass also was released with the Montana Hi-Line, which is available unbranded.

-Marias Pass came with an ES44DC and a SW1500,
-Stevens Pass came with an ES44DC and a GP38-2.
-Montana Hi Line comes with an ES44DC, GP38-2 and SW1500 which have unbranded versions.

Stevens Pass is a 3rd Party route, G-Trax is listed as the Developer, so it isn't up to Dovetail to unbrand it.

 

I'd be surprised if NWC isn't re-released in unbranded form at some point. It's an asset that DTG have that will not cost them much to re-release and is seemingly much-wanted. There may be less-obvious reasons for the delay, new licencing agreements, related new rolling stock releases or maybe it's just on the list and we'll get there eventually.

 

Well, i think that is more important bringing back NWC from Crewe to Holyhead. After this, they can make a new route, utilizing the WCML South section from Birmingham International to Birmingham New Street, without need WCML South, in this new route it's from Birmingham International to Shrewsbury, allowing a merge from WCML South to Shrewsbury for services from Euston, and for scenarios only for West Midlands and TfW, use the Birmingham to Shrewsbury, this is all for Birmingham - Wolverhampton - Shrewsbury.

Another route from Shrewsbury to Chester, allowing the link between South Wales and North Wales, i don't know if this merge can be done after all routes be available or they need change the coordinates of route origin. I don't have suggestion for Shrewsbury - Crewe (- Manchester) or Stafford - Crewe. This all hunch is based that DTG can't release one route for month and the route is released on Steam and don't require other routes for work.

For the BNSF, all the rolling stock comes with the Hi-Line, now we just need the route itself, which don't come without rolling stock, that we already have. Then it's just unbrand and release with the rolling stock from Hi-Line.

 

Is the rolling stock the same rolling stock from Stevens and Marias, or improved versions? If it's the same versions, just with unbranding, then I agree, unbranding Stevens Pass and putting those locos in seems logical. The scenarios can just be remade using them. Though the comment that G-Trax is involved does make sense, and they have not made Stevens Pass free like with Portland Terminal and Bessemer yet. If it was, then everyone could probably go after it without any problems because, well, it's free. The problem is that it's sold on Steam and DTG can't sell BNSF on Steam. And before someone says it applies to all content, you suggest to me why Travel By Train has multiple Santa Fe and Burlington Northern products on their site, and why JointedRail BNSF are on Searchlight Simulations. The product could be made available off of Steam and probably escape scrutiny, but it isn't. I hope G-Trax is willing to unbrand Stevens Pass, but DTG has the say over Marias, and being the second most used route in the Workshop means there is a good chance, if an international version uses the same install point, that there will be large interest in that international version, especially because we have an unbranded Montana Hi Line out there to reference sales figures for. The only question is whether the BNSF Loco Pack will get merged into the international version as added value, which was a suggestion I would make since it boasts 11 scenarios for Marias Pass. (And no, it would stay separate for American users, the reason I suggest an international nerge is because no branding, so add more value to the route without the branding value.)

By the way, while it's unlikely an unbranded loco pack and route merge would occur, it's the same as me suggesting unbranding the Arriva DMU pack and adding it to South Wales Coastal (which did not happen, and I still think could have unless they are rebranding those trains as well). Because that one didn't happen, my suggestion won't either. But it would be a good idea and would get a LOT of Workshop content opened up if the install locations are the same, meaning the game loads whatever train version is in your pack.

Regarding your thoughts on the route extensions, my Stafford suggestion incorporates it as part of the North Wales Coastal route, so you can drive from Stafford to Holyhead. As long as the route origin matches Trent Valley, then that's an easy merge. I don't know how WCML South connects to Trent Valley in terms of route origins. That connection's fate is already determined. As for Shrewsbury to Crewe, I am suggesting this be part of a standalone route, and it would not require Welsh Marches or NWC to be utilized.

 

It also doesn't seem like the licensing issue effects their backdated Stevens Pass route "Great Northern Cascadian" that they have on Railworks America either (Though that route is payware unlike Maine Maritime or Penn Steam).
http://railworksamerica.com/index.p...imulations/item/316-g-trax-gn-cascadian-route

They even expanded that route west to cover the original length of Stevens Pass.
http://railworksamerica.com/index.p...ascadian-west-expansion&catid=33:gn-cascadian

 

Yeah, I'm aware of that route. But it's steam trains, isn't it? Not my cup of tea at the moment. I'd take the one from Steam over that at this time.

 

Its actually comes with an electric locomotive, but it has scenarios for a freeware GN 4-8-4, plus G-Trax also released a freeware GN ALCO RS-1 as well (Only 1 scenario for it on RWA though).

However this doesn't really fix the whole original Stevens Pass issue. (Which I doubt G-Trax or any other of the route contributors are willing to change.)

 

Yeah, the Arriva DMU pack is good for workshop scenarios, and have FGW Class 158, hope they re-release as Trains Wales DMU pack and add GWR livery.

For BNSF, only the routes without the branding it was already good. I don't know how this works, but i don't believe that it's a hard work.

 

DTG don't like to release content unbranded, so my guess is they're still attempting to get access to Transport for Wales branding.

Also since NWC extension was released with NWC as a dependency (rather than two independents routes like SWC), they'll likely still sell the extension separately (also in that the extension was only on sale for about a year and a half so there's a lot of lost revenue there).

 

The question is whether they feel there is business sense in unbranding BNSF content that was previously available internationally for new international users since 2015. I feel I have demonstrated a good business case around the fact that an unbranded BNSF Loco Pack can be added, in addition to an extra branded livery to retain branding value (available separately for American players and installed to the same place). That bundle would give 19 scenarios in a Marias Pass pack for international users, eight with the route and 11 with the locos. Another one or two can be created for the new train livery to bump it to a lovely Blackjack. Having a pack of 21 scenarios waiting to be played is value in itself, but the big case for this idea is the fact that the original GP38-2 comes from the BNSF Loco Pack, and there are many reskins out there using this model including a Canadian Pacific one. While DTG would not consider this value, we do. Both BNSF GP38-2 and SD40-2 also get used heavily in the Workshop; again, DTG might not see value here, but we might. So the business plan for an unbranding is right there, black and white and bold. Unbrand the route, unbrand the loco pack, merge, add a new livery and related scenarios, release. Everything in that version installs to the same place as the originals and Americans cannot buy it, solving the problem of Workshop usability. (Of course, anyone owning the original Marias Pass and Loco Pack prior to the removal needs to be prevented from buying it somehow; this is the only issue, and a big bold note on the store page would be a good way to deal with this; those with only one of the two might have a problem and have to back up and then disable the other version to then reinstall over the new version, which should just involve backing up the AP file.) Americans can keep separate packs because branding costs more (and given our new item pricing would keep our version well above American versions in sale prices, they have no reason to complain).

For all we know, they might already have spoken to them and could be working on it as we speak. I said multiple times in places that I bet it's the next project. I just didn't know what the brand would be, so your information about today's branding is useful as that allows them to redate the route to today. The only question will be what happens to scenarios from other developers, such as AP and users at ATS. But I am hopeful, and would not mind even seeing the Conwy Valley Line commercialized and added to the pack if we don't go to Stafford (since that extension might not work as-is with a new pack given it installs on top of the original route).

 

Well, i agree with you, it's much better to have the route and the train instead of not having because they don't have licenses. I believe that Hi-Line is two versions, but one archive, that made a universal route for workshop, correct me if I'm wrong. But the fact is that many people arrived later and would like to have these routes, I do not think it is fair to be unavailable to them. And I believe that it has a lot of potential, if not limited to routes that have licenses.

 

I'd also be quite happy to pay for the route again if it was substantially modified in some way (e.g. backdated or with upgraded rolling stock). That might be why NWC hasn't been released already as it could be waiting in the queue for such treatment (we already have the unbranded Arriva units and Avanti 221 so there's nothing obvious stopping it being released unbranded).

 

Yup. And either commercializing Conwy to go with it, or adding Stafford, would be two good potnetial reasons for delay. So here's hoping?

(Note that if the free Conwy is utilized, all needed scenery from other routes would have to also be added to NWC. This is not necessarily a bad thing, as the scenery is now available twice for the Workshop, but it's still unlikely. Extending to Stafford is a more likely outcome in my mind.

 

An extension to Stafford would be pointless, there's about 3 trains a day that call at Stafford use the NWC route. The route won't be extended as people who already own NWC wouldn't be able to receive it for free as it would then be a different DLC and not an unbranded version. If you're keen to drive from Crewe to Stafford then WCML Missing Link has it which coincidentally needs NWC as a requirement.

 

You're forgetting that Missing Link is subscriptionware and is being worked on in three more phases, requires around $42.36 CAD ANNUALLY (changing with the market, and BTW, $43.49 is a general full route price on Canada's Steam store) and that getting the latest phases requires you to pay every year even if there are no new phases released until 2025 or the project even ends. There is also the fact that it's not first-party or second-party to DTG, meaning that it's not supported by them in any way being unavailable through Steam. Also, it's best to wait until Phase 6 to get the full Missing Link at once if you're going to fork over that kind of cash because you get the entire route at once. So no, I'm not going to subscribe to a Web site that requires I have a whole bunch of AP trains to use pretty much any of their content, even scenarios with routes we still have to pay for separately. That's a bit rich if you ask me.

No, the extension to Stafford I'm talking about would need to be DTG. Not third-party. And this is the perfect time for DTG to get it in. The logic here is being able to complete the path from London Euston, which they just released to Birmingham in September, by adding that missing link to allow a full drive to Holyhead. And since they have to re-release NWC anyway, this is the perfect chance for the route to be completed with it by adding it to that. Stafford is the Trent Valley connection and Trent Valley isn't going back in the oven. They can do a couple of new scenarios for the extension to Stafford and include everything else. The idea here is that they would NOT have to give it to everyone for free, and they can make money with the new extension. Those who don't want DTG's can just get Missing Link. But it won't work for anything in the Workshop that might use a merged route. Oh, and since the old NWC is 2000s, if they move it to today, it's a different route anyway. Who says it would be free and even have the same scenarios, in the first place? They won't pay for a license for new liveries and then give it away to existing owners. You have to pay for the new liveries. So make it worthwhile to existing owners by adding more on to it. Makes sense to me! It's either Stafford or Shrewsbury to make it worthwhile as a new DLC.

 

I'm just saying from a content stand point Stafford is an illogical extension for NWC. The Euston - Liverpool Lime Street train stops at Stafford and so do limited Euston - Manchester Piccadilly trains so those two routes are better ideas if you want to get the Crewe - Stafford bit of WCML into TS.

I understand your point about WCML Missing Link being subscriptionware, if you're willing to wait for the finished product then you can take advantage of promotional offers to get a few routes which would average the cost down, ECML Merge, WCML MIssing Link and eventual merge, Leeds Lines, half price Cambridge - Peterborough.

When it's finished Birmingham New Street - Manchester/Liverpool/Preston will be drivable can't really expect that for free can you? So really you get more for your money since it will be "free" with the subscription.

The best option is to release NWC unbranded like SWC and WM and give it out free to people who originally bought it, that way nobody is missing out and people are stuck buying a new DLC which they basically already own.

 

As I said in another thread:
They could take the Class 47, Mk2s and HST from the also retired Virgin 1 gen pack and reskin them into IC Swallow, bundle the 156 and 158 that they already have in the time-appropriate liveries, take the 37/4 by Railright from the West Highland route and reskin it into Railfreight two-tone grey and Regional Railways, take the non-airco Mk2s they've had for years and reskin them into Regional Railways, throw in some suitable freight cars from e.g. West Highland, and re-release it as a late BR-era version

 

Did I say the route should be completely free? I never said that, did I?

Per your earlier post, there are still three trains from Stafford (daily I think?). So there is still a logical reason why the Stafford link would go with NWC. But buying a DLC they already own? Let's assume that DTG makes a brand new scenario pack for this route and puts the original stack of 18 scenarios into a separate scenario pack that existing owners get for free. They aren't missing out on anything. They would be buying the route for the new segment and they get all of the fixed scenarios for free. Non-owners of NWC do NOT get this scenario pack for free (though let's be honest, those owning half the route SHOULD get a discount), meaning they would have to buy it. Now, if the fixed scenarios join the replacement a la SWC, the point on giving it for free has a lot more credence. But I do not see a solution you are offering DTG for how to handle the Stafford area. And further, having something like Missing Link would bloat the entire drive, because now a user has to load all of this extra stuff north to Liverpool and Preston that is not normally needed. Putting Stafforfd into this route means everything on the drive is used, and nothing else needs to be loaded. Yes, they could do a separate route themselves, but they won't do a full route covering the path of Missing Link; in fact, the best they could do is ask for permission to commercialize it for Steam separately and they'd likely charge $40 CAD for that route anyway. No one who subscribes to ATS would buy it, and the scenarios would be using stock that is now included with the route segment in question (or default stock). So putting the link from NWC is really the only way to cover the segment. I still believe it's the better option.

Now, let's say they do want to thank the people who bought the original route. They can give a discount on the newly extended route. Maybe 25% off to existing owners. Would that work for you?

 

I know Im late, but Dovetail Games is re-releasing North Wales Coastal again. With branded Transport for Wales 158's and 170's, Avanti West Coast 221 SuperVoyager.
https://live.dovetailgames.com/live/train-simulator/articles/article/anglesey-arrival

 

Another of my predictions has come to pass. I'm starting to run out of those, though.

 

Well that's a nice surprise, (I mean it's not really a surprise but still, it's nice)

Only thing I have to grumble about is even though I own 90% of it I'm still likely going to have to pay full price for it, I appreciate the fact that owners of BOTH the original route AND the extension get this for free but it would've been nice to get at least some discount for owning the main part of the route, it kinda feels like we are still being penalised for not having the opportunity to own it after withdrawal.

Oh and update to SWC in TfW livery when?

 

November 4th 2020 https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/route-ideas.30654/

April 26th 2020 https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/west-wales-route.22019/

Do keep up at the back (I may not have been the first to suggest it but I'm not Egoistic enough to claim it as "my prediction")

 

Which was a sticking plaster over a licencing issue, DTG have always strived to get proper branding so surely a small patch of a few skins is a final and definite solution or are they legally bound to the unbranded train company formally known as Arriva?

Get twisting some arms for us Danny mate.

 

It's ok Danny, it's not an issue as I replace mine with 3rd party TfW stock anyway, I suppose it would be nice for continuity and completeness but hardly a priority for me though.