Real Life Drivers On Train Sim

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by inversnecky, Mar 8, 2021.

  1. inversnecky

    inversnecky Well-Known Member

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    Following on from a discussion about career scenarios v real life driving, I thought it would be interesting to hear the views of real life drivers about TS.

    Maybe someone can find something with a real driver on TS - this was all I could find meantime, a more 2D sim:



     
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  2. Reef

    Reef Well-Known Member

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    I'm a real life driver...


    Though I drive artics (semi's to you over the pond people) not trains :D
     
  3. Reef

    Reef Well-Known Member

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    Qwertyafro is a real driver that plays train Sims too, he's on YouTube and Twitch
     
  4. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    You don't need to be a train driver to know that In real life, no one cares if you go 1mph over the limit, and you do not get "points" deducted for doing so. In fact, most equipment in trains wouldn't even KNOW if you are going 1mph over the limit - it's not that accurate. It's the same with driving a car. If all you care about is being under the limit, you'll actually be a completely rubbish, and probably very unsafe driver: There are basically more important things to be concerning yourself with and spending a disproportionate amount of time watching your speedometer to ensure you don't spend even one second over the limit to prevent yourself from losing points: That would be very dangerous in real life; You'd be like one of those old people who actually do think all they need to do in order to be safe is drive at less than 30mph. As we all know... they are not safe at all; They're a menace. So when someone tries to say that "playing" TS in "career" mode makes you a more "attentive" driver, it makes me laugh. The only things you'll be more attentive towards are those that effect your desired outcome - points and rewards, when in real life it would obviously be passenger safety and comfort, and being on time.

    Train Simulator is OBVIOUSLY nothing like actually driving a train, but I see no reason to not actually get as much realism from it as you can. Play in whatever way you like of course... it's your game, and you paid for it, but please don't try to convince me that career mode somehow makes it more realistic, or makes you a better driver. If that were the case, then replicating such behaviour in real life would also make you a better driver. I wonder how many of the "attentive" career mode drivers learn a route and switch off the HUD, and fully understand signalling, and have taken the time to research the subject - rules, and regulations, procedures etc? I also wonder how many don't care about anything except having a gold star next to every scenario.

    I'm not a train driver, but I'm prepared to bet quite a lot that when one finally does turn up in here they'll not be disagreeing with me much.

    These are just my opinions. There's no point arguing with me as I'll not be changing them. In fact... I'm going to post this and never return to this thread ever again.
     
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  5. paul.pavlinovich

    paul.pavlinovich Well-Known Member

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    Modern trains do very much know when you're speeding Pookeyhead and if you do it often or do it even once but for a long time expect an interview with a safety person in your near future. In plenty of them the train itself will take action and stop you. Generally a driver will drive slightly under the speed limit. You'd actually be surprised at how little you look at the speedo in a real train or other rail vehicle - once you know the route you know how fast to go and are going through a whole lot of other cues.

    Mostly I drive hi-rail vehicles but I do drive our diesels under supervision and in the past have driven trams and light rail.

    Paul
     
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  6. SJA

    SJA Active Member

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    Agreed on a lot of stuff Pookeyhead. Depends very much if you want to treat it as a simulator or a game.

    I'm not a train driver, have never worked for a ToC (shift work puts me off -- I'm a creature of habit), but I treat TS as a simulator which means a lot of "failed" scenarios with no green ticks because of correct responses to yellow signals and upcoming junctions, rather than just chancing it and powering through a yellow before emergency braking for the subsequent red in some vain attempt to keep to time.

    Career Mode is not something I bother with. It forces staring at the HUD, paying zero attention to anything except the speedo and slamming the brakes from 42mph into emergency upon entering a platform, missing the car number stop/S-stop signs at platforms, zilch in the way of route knowledge, not learning your stock in terms of motor running sounds and developing a "feel" for the speed you're travelling at, and prioritising timeliness "bonuses" over safety or signalling or accurate stopping positions or anything.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2021
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  7. JJTimothy

    JJTimothy Well-Known Member

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    There's at least a couple of train drivers who are regulars in the Steam forums but you don't see 'em here.
     
  8. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    Any type of traction that operates on Network Rail has to be fitted with TPWS and OTMR
    I drove trains for FNW out of Manchester for 10 years and around 1997 they had TPWS fitted.
    TPWS has overspeed sections which check if the train is going faster then linespeed to within +/- 3mph. Having a Speedo that is out of tolerance means it would not be in traffic.
    From around 2006 OTMR (On-Train Monitoring Recorder) was introduced which is a Black Box for trains and if there is any incident the first thing they do is take a download to see what happened. I driver I knew who worked for Virgin got the sack for Speeding and the OTMR data confirmed this.
    Really? :D
    Trainspotter maybe
     
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  9. inversnecky

    inversnecky Well-Known Member

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    I’ve only done a very few career scenarios so far, more because the task/trains looked interesting, or there wasn’t that many to choose from for my particular train of interest.

    Having done one of the few Shunter scenarios with a Class 09, which happened to be a career one, I noticed the one for the 73 entitled “Paper Run” (both came with the BR Blue pack).

    It looked a challenging scenario - no timetabled stops as such, but driving against yellows and reds, constantly changing speed limits, and challenging driving having to stop at reds and stations down inclines.

    But I did find you end up glued to the HUD speedo in case you went over the limit and lost points, rather than paying attention to the route and trackside signage etc.

    As a newbie to TS scenarios and indeed the 73, at one station more than half way into the scenario, I found I was coming to a stop too early in the platform, with half the train behind it, so thought I’d better edge forward towards the end as I presumed the ‘career algorithm’ wouldn’t take too kindly to stopping short. But the red timer just started as I stopped, so when I pulled forward to move along the platform more, I was immediately failed because I ‘left the station too early’!

    I’ve created a standard version too to try.

    But I am interested in the professional driver’s views more generally than just the pros and cons of career scenarios: do they find the train physics/behaviour realistic? How does TS (or others) compare to reality? What major differences are there?
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2021
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  10. inversnecky

    inversnecky Well-Known Member

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    Shame, should invite them over: the craic here is much better :)
     
  11. Olaf the Snowman

    Olaf the Snowman Well-Known Member

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    Are you able to elaborate on this please? Are you able to share when/where this happened, how much the train was speeding by, was it intentional/accidental? I’m very surprised the driver got sacked to be honest. Thanks

    (To be pedantic, the Class 332 Heathrow express units didn’t have TPWS fitted but they had ATP)
     
  12. JJTimothy

    JJTimothy Well-Known Member

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    As long as one vehicle in your train is abreast of the platform the stop counts and that's from the horse's mouth.
     
  13. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    You expect me to give information about somebody who got the sack?
    It was his third warning for speeding - not with a passenger train - and this time the train, a 390, had OTMR
    So he had no excuse
     
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  14. Olaf the Snowman

    Olaf the Snowman Well-Known Member

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    Ok, thanks for the reply anyway. Class 390s have TASS so I presume he was on non-Tass fitted lines such as the slow lines. That still surprises me unless there was more to it. I shall ask a VT/Avanti driver manager to find out more.
     
  15. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    I thought the TASS just applied where there was a speed differential?
    Not sure as I never drove one in real life - those i drove never went above 100mph
     
  16. Olaf the Snowman

    Olaf the Snowman Well-Known Member

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    Generally speaking, TASS is fitted to the fast lines. So when you go over the first set of balises, you become speed supervised and you are now able to do EPS speeds (enhanced permissible speeds). You’re still speed supervised even if there’s no EPS speed board as there are some locations where there is only a PS speed board. If you are over 3mph, you get a warning. If you are over 6mph, you’ll get an automatic brake application.
    There are sections of track that don’t have TASS fitted such as the slow lines. And if there is a problem with TASS and you don’t get the speed supervision/tilt authorisation light as you go over the balises (or at any point during the journey, TASS drops out due to a fault), you have to do PS speeds like any other train and you’re aren’t speed supervised.
    With TASS active and linespeed of 125mph, the most you could speed up to is 128mph before getting a warning.

    To confuse matters slightly, some EPS boards have differentials as Class 221s have to do a lower EPS speed than a Class 390 because it can only tilt 6 degrees instead of 8 degrees.

    EPS differential
    93B95581-F1D1-4AD7-8283-4022BE61E5D8.gif

    Come to think of it, Crewe-Manchester is an easy place to speed because TASS isn’t fitted on those lines (so 110mph max and no speed supervision) but if you’re day dreaming, you might end up doing 125mph by mistake. Equally, on the rare opportunity that TASS isn’t working, it’s easy to forget that you’re restricted to 110mph and there is nothing to remind you if you go over that. What I suspect is, this driver has had a long history of incidents (SPADs, TPWS, etc...) and this was the final nail in the coffin because speeding on its own (even 3 times) is very unlikely to get you the sack.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2021
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  17. Matthew Wilson

    Matthew Wilson Well-Known Member

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    Oh RLY?? I like to think of myself as a fairly active community member (not so much here) but I'm sure a lot of you are familiar with my work through Vulcan Productions.

    I qualified as a depot driver 1 year ago and the main takeaway for me is that the Class 166 simulation is terrible and really needs a new model with the modern cabs for 166 and 165 and lots of better sounds etc.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2021
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  18. andy.malcolm

    andy.malcolm Active Member

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    The 166 is about 13 years old so you're not wrong :)

    There is a sound mod here https://samtsm.co.uk/sounds.html?i=1 if you want to improve that aspect. Just noticed it says the physics are better too but I haven't tried driving one for ages.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2021
  19. inversnecky

    inversnecky Well-Known Member

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    Interesting titbit from Dad Rail - didn't know the allowed horn used window had expanded from 07:00-23:00 to 06:00-00:00.

    Also only the low horn tone is sounded at Whistle Boards.

    Must try to emulate some of his good driving habits!

    Having watched both his videos, I do think the focus should be on reproducing real life driving, to hell with career points - in my limited experience, I’ve found the focus on those can lead you into bad driving habits. Think I’ll try that ‘Paper Run’ again, and see how I get on.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2021
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  20. paul.pavlinovich

    paul.pavlinovich Well-Known Member

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    Of the various train simulators, TS isn't the worst from a reality perspective but its not the best either. The best IMHO is RUN8 which is pretty close to the real deal but its graphics make even TS look fantastic. The physics of TS isn't awful, but its not right either. Remembering it is a game and its meant to be fun rather than a driving aid its good enough to represent the real thing mostly. You can fang out of a station in notch 8 and nothing much will go wrong, in reality on a long train you'd probably break a coupler. When you couple up to a long train and have to air it up it would take minutes not moments.

    Paul
     
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  21. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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  22. inversnecky

    inversnecky Well-Known Member

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  23. DIFFLOCK

    DIFFLOCK Active Member

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    Percisely! So why, I wonder does career mode penalise you if you go 1 mph over? Given that in game, sometimes the view of the speedometer (analogue needle) means that parallax error comes into play - wait until the needle shows the appropriate speed and you're already getting points docked for speeding. I tend to use the HUD and if necessary, run at up to 0.9mph over for the unrealistic schedules. I guess I'll go through all the career drives as best I can then turn off scoring :D
    Regarding the Paper Run scenario, ironically i got a gold star.. IIRC I didn't chase the yellow then a red, I slowed down and ended up chasing double yellows. If you have an ETA for a location then watch that. If you're going to be early then no need to chase a yellow..
    Yes, I've been watching Don Coffey's videos, and whilst I run with a HUD showing in my game I took the advice shown by Don's commentary about drivers in the real world holding back the speed so as to keep rolling rather than have to stop - waiting to have a confirmed sighting of the signal ahead before getting up to line speed, things like that..:cool:
     
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  24. inversnecky

    inversnecky Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I've dabbled with turning off the HUD at times, but it can be hard to see the speedo on some trains - I have to zoom in, but that can lead to less window visibility. Is it the 73 where the speedo is obscurred by the handles, so you can't see much of it at all at low speeds?

    As Dad Rail says, after braking in step/application 1 or 2, put in 3 when stopped, reverser into neutral, possibly DRA on - but in that scenario I was finding I'm focused on bonuses for timely departure, that you can tend to skip some of these.

    I'll redo the Paper Run without paying attention to scoring, and see how well the algorithm handles better driving. And try without the HUD - I've tried that route more that any other, I think, so probably know it not too badly by now!

    But as mentioned, we have to be aware it's a game at the end of the day, and there is a limit to how much realism is possible or we can expect.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2021
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  25. SJA

    SJA Active Member

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    In cabs with blurry speedos when using the normal field of view, you can benefit from the F5 key to bring up the current speed (and one or two other bits) as small but readable white text up near the top of the screen. It works well in the cab with the dark surrounds but with other camera views it can obviously blend into daytime skies, etc.
     
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  26. roysto25

    roysto25 Well-Known Member

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    Those two videos are very interesting - more so for me because I grew up there some 70 years ago, trainspotting in the steam era - frantic rushes across town from New Street when someone said King John was on the Down Liverpool express at Snow Hill! However, more to the point is that old route for OpenBVE has realistic platform announcements at New Street, something we still do not generally have in TS or TSW2.
     
  27. Damon

    Damon New Member

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    I appreciate the OP said they won't return to this thread and wouldn't change their opinion regardless of what is said, however I will respond to the part of their post I have made bold above. As already mentioned trains do have data recorders and, when downloaded, your speed can be viewed (and not just rounded to the nearest whole mph). As drivers we are "downloaded" without prior warning on a fairly regular basis as part of our competency cycle, with those journeys then analysed and a report compiled by our manager to go on our file. Even what may be considered the most "minor" overspeeding will be mentioned and dealt with appropriately.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2021
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  28. Reef

    Reef Well-Known Member

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    I know on the London underground system they have guys out with handheld speed cameras (well they did on the TV documentary anyway), I don't know if that happens on mainlines though, but picking up on something mentioned earlier, if there is indeed a 3mph tolerance then I wish TS20xx took this into account also, the 1mph whilst understandable from a point scoring perspective is a little hard to maintain because let's not forget most people are driving these with a keyboard or a clunky RailDriver, you'll never emulate the feel of accelerating/decelerating or even holding a speed on the power handle.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2021
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  29. ntypeman

    ntypeman Well-Known Member

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    A friend of mine who was a traction instructor on the Southern once told me a similar thing... He also said that "the bobby" (signalman) would hang an upturned mop out of the signalbox window to warn / indicate to drivers that speed checks were in operation in the area...!!!

    Eric
     
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  30. inversnecky

    inversnecky Well-Known Member

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    Yes, half the time I overspeed like that is pressing the wrong key, or with braking too much it's just pressing the wrong key, so I accidentally going into emergency when I had no intention to.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2021
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  31. Olaf the Snowman

    Olaf the Snowman Well-Known Member

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    The use of speed cameras depends on company. If it’s not agreed though, the union can get very annoyed about it. On the subject of Virgin Trains, the union put a stop to it. Other companies/networks, it does happen. It’s not necessarily a bad thing for drivers though because it has prevented TPWS incidents.

    When I said 3mph tolerance, I was talking about with regard to the speed supervision system on the train- and quite specifically Class 390s/221s as most traction don’t have speed supervision systems. If you are regularly doing 1-3mph over and certainly if a driver manager was sitting with you during an assessment, they won’t be happy. The other thing to consider is what the linespeed is. Let’s say linespeed is 125mph, if you’re doing 127mph then it’s not end of the world. However, if linespeed is 10mph, doing 12mph would be taken a lot more seriously because even though the difference both times is only 2mph, as a percentage there is a big difference (20% instead of 1.6%).

    Examples of *serious* speeding incidents:
    • Speeding through an emergency/temporary speed restriction. Happened on the East Coast near Sandy a couple of years ago where a HST was doing 120mph in a 20mph either ESR or TSR, can’t remember which. There was an TSR/ESR near Wolverhampton a couple years back of 5mph and three different drivers went over it at 50mph.
    • Quite recently, a Transpennine Class 800 was doing 140mph by mistake instead of 125mph. Can’t remember the details, I think there was a problem with the Auto speed limiter (ASL), driver not setting it correctly or something along those lines.
    • Junctions/crossovers- in complex layouts where there are lots of crossovers but some with significantly different speeds (e.g. one might be 15mph, another might be 50mph). If you don’t pay attention to the junction/route indicator, you might do the wrong speed. E.g. In 2012 on the WCML, a Class 90 light loco derailed near Bletchley. Driver didn’t see junction indicator to take him across and wacked it straight open so did something like 65mph on a 15mph junction,
    • Forgetting which traction or mode you’re in- I’ve already given the example of forgetting that you’re non-tilt in 390s/221s. Another example is on the SWML between Farnborough and Basingstoke- if you’re on a 158/159 and your head is in desiro mode, you might take it up to 100mph (max speed of sprinter is 90mph).
     
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  32. ntypeman

    ntypeman Well-Known Member

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    I find this statement strange... The cabs are totally different & the acceleration will probably be quite slow [of a 158/159] compared to that of a Desiro...

    Its a bit like saying the difference between an F1 car & a Ford Sierra...!!!

    Eric
     
  33. Damon

    Damon New Member

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    It sounds odd, but if you are at a depot that spends most of its time say driving a 100mph train over a 100mph route, something known as 'human factors' (I believe originally used by the airline industry, but now being widely adopted by the railway) can come into play and drivers could fall into a kind of 'autopilot' mode. If you spend 95% of your time accelerating up to 100mph, it could potentially become almost routine to do that. Particularly if you've been up since 2.30am (or finishing just as late) and fatigue is starting to creep in towards the end of your shift.

    Another example of speed-related human factors could be demonstrated by drivers on TOCs like Transport for Wales or Northern, where you may drive the likes of a 158 attached to a 150 or 156 respectively. You're in a 158 cab, the max speed sticker says 90mph, linespeed is maybe 80/90, so you open the thing up. Then you remember there's a 75mph unit attached to the rear.....

    Ways to combat this sort of thing include writing on your schedule card and commentary driving, or developing other personal techniques that work for you. Some TOCs you may over the course of a day drive a 4 car, then an 8 car, then a 5 car, then a 10 car, maybe more variations all in one shift. Or perhaps six 8 car trains during the day, then a 12 car on your very last trip. This has the potential for drivers stopping on the wrong car stop mark (particularly the latter example when you've been stopping at 8 car marks maybe 50+ times previously that day), which is obviously a risk if you stop a long train too soon as coaches are hanging off the end of the platform and a door release is initiated. In Train Simulator the coaches hanging off won't open, but this isn't completely prototypical of all trains on the mainline. So again, techniques such as writing the number of coaches for each trip on your schedule (so you see it every time you look at it) or, at some TOCs, "formation cards" you can display in the cab as a visual reminder, can be adopted.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2021
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  34. Reef

    Reef Well-Known Member

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    Olaf the Snowman & Damon Thank you both for very informative answers, I'd like to consider myself a little better informed now (and without getting chastised too which is always a bonus), and I can definitely relate to the "head in desiro mode" comment, albeit in reverse, I drive HGV's in the UK and they are limited to 56mph (90kmh), times I've been then driving in my car and settle on that speed when I obviously can go up to 70mph you wouldn't believe. We are creatures of habit.
     
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  35. Sharpey

    Sharpey Member

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    Here in Sydney Australia we also use data loggers, which are downloaded on a regular basis, or compulsory as part of an investigation.
    All of our passenger trains are crewed by guards who can also monitor our speed from their cab, and as part of their training are required to implement emergency procedures if required although rare.
    We also have standards officers who randomly appear and will test us on our general driving, knowledge of speed limits, point of no returns, signals etc etc..
     
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  36. Aryffordd

    Aryffordd Guest

    I’ve learned so much from the videos and this thread already. We are lucky to have such experienced people on this forum.
     
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  37. inversnecky

    inversnecky Well-Known Member

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    I might have to do that. Been trying to watch the speedo on the MKS Class 73, but it's hard in a 15 mph limit - the needle's either behind the control handles or barely visible with instrument lights on:

    1.jpg 2.jpg 3.jpg 4.jpg 5.jpg
     
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  38. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    I normally drive with the F3 HUD switched on or the F5 HUD that just displays the speed as Text in the top left of the screen
     
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  39. inversnecky

    inversnecky Well-Known Member

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    Will give the F5 a go: just want to try to wean myself off the HUD as I develop my skills.
     
  40. DIFFLOCK

    DIFFLOCK Active Member

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    A great discussion, thank you. A rather more humorous "human factors" question for the real train drivers: After a long, busy shift, have you ever got into your car to go home and forgotten to steer when setting off? ;)
     
  41. inversnecky

    inversnecky Well-Known Member

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    It’s also shows the dedication of many drivers that they use TS. I think if I was a driver, I’d just want to switch off after a hard day’s work, and the verylast thing I’d want to do in my spare time is a virtual version of my job!
     
  42. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    The nice part of the sim is you get to drive where You want and pick the trains you wish to drive
    Which might explain why I have a lot of European routes & locos :)
     
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  43. Olaf the Snowman

    Olaf the Snowman Well-Known Member

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    A common one is if you happen to be sitting near the front of the train and can hear the vigilance of the DSD go off, you will subconsciously move your foot up and down slightly even if you’re distracted such as reading something or on your phone. It can be embarrassing because if the driver doesn’t happen to cancel the DSD for a couple seconds, you’ll subconsciously move foot up and down slightly again a couple of times and if the driver still hasn’t cancelled it, you’ll lift your foot and go BANG on the ground to be met with some odd looks from passengers.

    I wrote these two posts sometime ago which some people found helpful so I’ll leave it here.

    (Someone asked a question what the 3 step check stickers on the SouthEastern traction were).

     
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  44. ntypeman

    ntypeman Well-Known Member

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    No... but as a bus driver, I know of drivers who have been driving home in their cars, a passenger has put their hand out (with a bus following the said car) and the driver going home has pulled up at the bus stop in their car...!!!

    Eric
     
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  45. Damon

    Damon New Member

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    Fortunately not, although I did once reach for my T-key instead of my car key once. That could've proved rather annoying if I'd dug that into the side of the car!

    Funnily enough I used to be quite active with BVE and MSTS from around the age of 12/13 through to starting work on the railway at 18, but then started losing interest for the very reason you mention (as well as I guess finding other things in life to occupy my time). It's only after 12 years away that boredom in lockdown saw me happen to look back and see what was going on in the simulation community these days. I seem to recall the then-new Rail Simulator progam was released around the same time I 'left', with BVE and MSTS still very much being the games of choice at the time with lots of projects still in development and near-constant new releases.
     
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  46. SJA

    SJA Active Member

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    I used OpenBVE from about 2008-2011 or so, and it felt like there was an ocean of content for it back then. Not sure why but I found it a more "pure" sim and learned all the routes I ever downloaded for it (which was only about 6 to be fair!). I really enjoyed that sim. Helped that you could get 25fps out of a 1.3GHz laptop on it.

    I think it was only the sound packs that AP were selling that convinced me to get TS/Railworks about a decade ago. I've used it on and off in phases for a decade (I don't work in the rail industry, mind you). But I've already decided to redownload OpenBVE once more and enjoy some of the old runs through Kent and on the Birmingham XC lines, plus some London Underground :D
     

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