Dtg, Please Don't Interpret This The Wrong Way.

Diesel legends has come out. I can't say it with certainty yet. But I have an odd suspicion it won't be scoring any blue letters on the steam reviews. But please don't think we don't want scenario/content packs. Just for the record. I think only people that will have just the slightest interest will buy this, so even the steam reviews may be looking more positive than the community's opinion overall. But the problem isn't the fact that it's a timetable pack, it's 100% the execution and the pricing. Diesel Legends is a pack that is 100% recycled, whether you like my wording or not, the only thing that is brand new in this pack is the middle car of the class 101. The rest is repaints only. If you guys would've put in the extra effort of making atleast 1 new piece of rolling stock, then the price would've been justified. But putting existing stock, that we can make happen by downloading 3 reskins, on a route that represents an era that is nearly 50 years in the future of the rolling stock, which results in a 101 running on a route it never frequently ran in the firstplace, while electrification is half way done, HOW can you charge nearly 20 euro's for that. I am sorry, but THAT is a joke.
Before the DTG fanboys come at me, please don't, I am not trying to bash DTG, eventhough most of my comments on this forum are critical. I want DTG to realise that this won't be indicative at all, of whether DTG should make such packs in the future. The problem is we want it done properly!
This was my preach, thanks for reading

 

The middle car of the class 101 is from TVL so it isn't even new. It would be more realistic if it was supplied on NTP rather than TVL in the first place but you can't have everything!

 

Agreed, using this package as prototype will be very misleading!

 

I agree. I don't think it will score positive reviews either because of the execution. The community on the forums and even some hardcore br blue fans weren't 100% pleased. It's too expensive for the value and a casual player is better off buying ntp than this. Plus if you want extra trains that would run on the old timetable, you have to pay for extra dlcs. Some have and rightly so in my opinion called it a cash grab and I can see why

 

oh sorry didn't realise TVL had 3 car 101's

 

Yes a mixture of two car and three car sets, although by 1989 Heaton depot had lost the centre carriages of the remaining first generation DMU's it had left so they could keep up with the new Pacer and Sprinter timings. Anyway that is a moan for another thread!

 

I have all of the DLC on tsw1 and tsw2 and frankly to be honest this will be the 1st dlc that I won't buy.

Let's say if I hadn't had class 101 or class 52 I might have taken it but no sorry, I'm going to keep my money for the Arosa and the Clinchfield.

I'm not even sure that at 10 euro it will interest me, there is nothing new apart from a few new schedules .....

 

All I will add is pre existing owners of content should get an adequate discount of at least 50%. I will NOT be buying this until there is a sale with 50% off. DTG, you said in one of the streams that it wasn't that hard to make so it probably shouldn't be worth £14.99, especially for owners of the class 52, Class 101 and class 09.

 

What makes TSW2 stand out is service mode and all the traffic it creates. This is much more than what is available with scenario planner and the execution of a good timetable is more difficult than many here realize, I suspect.

For me, the point isn’t that the content is recycled. The point is that it’s a whole new timetable. I will gladly pay the cost of a DLC for a well done busy timetable such as what we have an SKA and HMA with layers - or even SPG with the services added by the Dash 8.

So, I give props to DTG for the liveries, I appreciate that NTP, TVL, and Heavy Freight services layer in, and I will base this purchase’s value on how well the timetable works in creating enjoyable experiences at the throttle.

 

The nature of the experiment excluded any new stock and IMHO that should have been stated from day one to level expectations.
Now I understand this, I have changed my tune and am warming to it.
From a business point of view with my revised expectations, I think it is a great way of doing things i.e. once you have the portfolio to provide the customer offer a 'run them if you got them' pack.
Once you get you head around it the timetable is what you are paying for, but its not compleat without the 20 and 43 and thats where it trips up for me.
DTG Do you need a licence for workshop undercoat or primer? You gave us a livery designer. I say to you up the relevancy of the core game when your this close, please.

 

DTG could just give us the ability to create our own custom timetables and add as many services as we so please in scenario planner 2.0. Some have asked for that and it seems like a good idea

 

Perspective from someone relatively new to train sims (TSW2 is my first ever - purchased in December).

I could understand the intended "value exchange" of a DLC like Legends of Diesel if:

A) It was aimed at players who don't own lots of routes, to provide them with the full "one-stop-shop" passenger & freight experience of those trains on this route.

B) It was offered at a discounted rate for owners of other routes.

According to the DLC Q&A on YouTube, in order to "fully" experience the LOD / GWR DLC, one must additionally own:

1. TVL
2. NTP
3. BR Freight Pack
4. Class 31

I've purchased lots of TSW2 DLC since December, but this is absolutely a hard pass.

Moving forwards, I hope DTG will proactively engage in meaningful dialogue with the community to enhance the value exchange for future content like this.

 

The price is good. Only for new players. They get the three new trains for £14.99, pre-existing players who own the DLC are paying for a timetable to use their bought content on. How is that fair? Even if people just own the class 52, that is £11.99. To get more services it is £26.98 for this train - with only a reskin, nameplates (and livery designer and scenario planner that should be added to the original 52 anyway by the preserved crew). I won't buy it at a price more than £7.50. That is a generous price as I really would not be getting what I paid for. Thank you for looking at this.

 

You don't need to own these. That is why it is a good offer for new players. It fails to be a good offer for existing owners.

 

I might be wrong but I think in a stream Matt or Sam said this pack would probably only be of interest to people who don't already own the included content of this pack.

 

I am interested in the pack. I just don't want to buy the same products more than once. I own all the trains, so buying this pack is unfair for me as I don't get any new locos unlike other players.

 

Yes, it's also of interest for those who want to dive a BR-style timetable and not too bothered about realism.

I don't have the 52 and as said above the timetable looks interesting and fun, but I honestly do not think it's worth £15 so I'm going to have to wait for a sale before I consider it.

 

I get the feeling that creating services is not that simple and would certainly not be a five minutes job. Hundreds of hours I wouldn't be surprised to create a 12 hour timetable.

I personally don't begrudge them £14.99 for supplying a new timetable and an era specific pack, the Western reskin looks good too, my reasons for not purchasing it have been stated.

 

And for players who don't own gwe they would have to spend $52.98 to get gwe and this pack. Is that a good value because I don't think it is

 

In order to enjoy the full passenger / freight experience on LOD, purchase of those other DLC's is required. It was confirmed by Matt and Sam during the Q&A.

 

very easy not buy

 

You have a fair point but how about this idea. Since some players would be willing to make massive timetables, dtg could introudce a sharing option to allow people to share their timetables. Do you think that's a good idea?

 

This pack certainly makes sense for some people, I didn't have the class 52, wanted it but wasn't interested in buying the WSR route so it's a good deal for me personally. I also already own NTP, TVL and associated DLCs so I don't need to purchase anything else.

I can totally see why other people aren't happy though, if I already owned the class 52 then I would have just been buying a timetable and I'm not sure about that.

What's missing here is the option to buy just the timetable at a reduced price for people that already own the 08, 101 and 52 to make things fairer.

 

Imma do the math for a casual player who wants all the trains that would run on this alternate timetable but dont own them. Western Diesel Legends (Class 52, Class 101. The 101 was rare on this route. And the Class 08.) That's $22.99. You need Great Western Express to use this pack, $29.99. (If you just want gwe and this pack with the three trains alone and don't own gwe, that's $52.98) If you want to use the class 31, you need tees valley, $29.99. If you want freight services and the Class 45 and 47/4 you need the Heavy Freight Pack which is $19.99 and Northern Trans Pennine is $29.99 and that's before sales tax. If we add that all up that would cost $132.95. Pretty expensive

I did the math in the western glory thread if you haven't seen it and if you want my full thoughts, you can read it on page 10 on the Train Sim World 2- Western Glory Thread. I pasted it here to give people who may not have seen it an idea of the pricing. It's in american dollars so you may have to do conversions to your local currency

 

In some ways, it’s like seeing some thing you bought at full price go on sale later. The difference in price is what you paid to have use of it before the sale.

I wonder if perceptions of this would be different if no equipment was included and it was just sold as a diesel era timetable for GWE. The more preserved collection content you own, the more layers you get.

If it provided a busy and complex timetable, how much would you pay for that?

Granted, I am much more excited about the potential of CSX on the Clinchfield than this, but the answer for me is close to the same as I would pay for a new loco. A good timetable provides much more gameplay than a single DLC.

 

I will buy the package because it adds a lot of interesting tasks to a nice route - with rolling stock I like very much.

A few words about the price. In Germany the package costs 17,99 Euro minus a discount of 10% = 16,19 Euro. When I see what people spend on branded clothes&shoes, alcohol, cigarettes, 20-inch aluminum wheels, smartphones, lotteries, etc etc (we're not talking about essentials here) - what's the problem with 16.19 euros for a hobby that you like to do? In Germany, that's the equivalent of about 4 kebabs, a meal in a mediocre restaurant, 4 large beers or a visit to the cinema for one person (without coke and chips). I don't get the problem. Especially since no one is forced to buy that!

 

What I would consider a great pack would be something along the following lines:
- A new timetable
- One new loco (I'd prefer a brand new loco, but maybe that is out of scope, understandably, but then a modified one would be appreciated (e.g. what was done with the 377 and 375)) plus one or two recycled ones.
- Changes to the route where possible (I know that this is going to be far from perfect, but I believe there is the possibility of a good compromise. One example, removing the OHLE from GWE. Yes, it is work, but I would say that is something rather simple to do. Maybe update signal visuals, something along those lines. I don't expect stations to be fully reworked, added or removed, but some of those little tweaks to the route would be highly appreciated and add to the immersion!)

For this, I would be willing to invest 18€, no questions asked

What could I imagine implementation wise?
A modern NTP with Class 802 (modify the 395 for that?) and slight modifications to the route (maybe continuous welded tracks? A more modern touch to stations? Replace signal visuals (especially for the semaphore signals)? Not sure how easy that is, and if it would impact the route on a larger scale, signalling is a difficult thing to mess with, understandably).
A classic RSN with an older loco, or maybe n-Wagen for example. That would also satisfy the part of the community craving for older German content, maybe a win-win compromise?

 

I bought it because i didn't have the Class 52 and I like the idea of additional service mode timetables since that's where i spend 99% of my time in TSW2.

I can see it being a bit expensive if you already own all the locos on offer. Hopefully they'll take this into consideration if they do future packs like this (which i hope they do). I can overlook the historical inaccuracies since i don't really know the history of BR that well- i was excited to meet a Class 47 as i was speeding towards Reading in my 52 even though i assume that would have never happened. The individual loco names are cool too (i had Western Sovereign).

My biggest complaint is that freight services aren't active at launch. I hope by "coming soon", they mean days, not weeks. If it ends up being like the layers for HMA (i'm on Xbox), i'll be seriously annoyed. Also curious why the Class 33 and Class 09 aren't usable- i never use them since i just can't get along with WSR no matter how much i try.

 

I think the pack is not a bad idea. I was initially reluctant to get it cause I thought it was going to add only the 52, 08 and 101. But as it adds timetable for the other british units I think it´s a valuable addition for users like me that already own the other DLCs.

Cheers

 

GWE came with TSW when I bought it. I played it a bit but once Trans Pennine and Tees Valley came out, I never really bothered with it again. I've just bought the Diesel Legends dlc and I'm looking forward to revisiting GW but this time with the trains I knew, loco hauled and first generation DMUs. I've already got everything BR blue so there is no extra expense. In effect, I've got a whole new route and timetable for £15 and I think it's great value. It's not perfect but it's a lot more interesting than the original. Thanks Matt, for giving us this opportunity to relive the past.

 

Youtuber Sim UK seems to agree with many here:

 

I have no problem whatsoever with them using the trains I already own in a new pack. I don’t really have a problem with the DMU not being the correct one, it’s all they have. I have bought it for the timetable services. What does bother me is that doesn’t appear to have made with much care and attention. I’m not far into playing it, just a few services, but what I have seen so far isn’t up to scratch. I did a service in a Class 31 that clearly uses a computer generated path and had no times for stops on it. A new timetable with no times on it. I don’t think a human had ever checked the contents of that service, and I’m hoping all the trains aren’t routed down that path. I’m not impressed so far but there is a lot in the pack to try yet.

There has already been quite a bit of negative feedback from people saying they won’t buy it for whatever reason, I’m now waiting to see how much negative feedback it gets from players who do buy it. I don’t think it will be as much but I’ve already thrown mine into the hat, and I’ve been backing this pack from the start. I’ve been really happy with SEHS, that’s been great since the first patches came out so there’s hope for this pack if it gets some more attention.

 

It would have happened regularly, the Western region had quite a large allocation of class 47's, when BR had decided on a policy of not naming engines the Western region, as was their want, ignored that rule and named all its hydraulic express locomotives and several class 47 locomotives, so yes you would have seen a class 47. You wouldn't have seen the class 47 in the state supplied on NTP as it has its headcode panel blanked off, up to January 1976 trains ran with a headcode showing, as is depicted on the class 52. The class 31 isn't quite accurate for the same reason. But, then the pack isn't realistic and representative of the Western region in the 1970's so it doesn't really matter. And, if you are enjoying it, then that is all that does matter.

 

Well if it was possible and there were players willing to do that then of course it would be a good idea. However, I don't think it is going to happen, certainly not for a long time to come.

 

It seems that way. I watched his video

 

Thanks for the info- very interesting!

 

Yeh it probably won't come for a long time but it would be a good thing for dtg to implement

 

I think the messaging for this DLC is all wrong. On one hand they say it is for new users but most new users will not own NTP, TVL and the 2 loco packs to receive the full benefit from all the timetable layers.

On the other hand, existing users may already own the locos featured and may not see any value for money. It just seems like this one is caught between 2 worlds

 

I’ll be making that purchase here as it’s an era of my youth that I’m really fond of, the timetable and pulling in of all DLC that I’ve brought makes it something I really should have yet I begrudge the asking price for sure ... An original HST reskin & re-cab although from a slightly different end of the decade would of made a nice addition here, or something new yes, a class 50 or some other first gen DMU or something, I’m born 78 so my recollections are the early 80’s but BR blue all the same ...

What ‘would’ work very well in my opinion is a BR Blue era pack for ...

SEHS and ECW set back then and featuring a common denominator of slam door EMU from the period, plus an official reston of the Southern Region class 33 into blue and maybe create a 73 in blue whilst at it, create that all
important timetable & see how that fairs.

The immersion isn’t broken so much with the 3rd rail routes as the elephant in the room of OHLE isn’t an issue, but granted you could only use SEHS between Faversham & Gravesend but I think blue packs for those routes could work well.

 

Fair point- but how likely is it that players who are interested in the BR era don't already have NTP, WSR and TVL?

 

The messaging is strange. It was marketed as loco dlc when it really is not

 

How much do you think a 3-loco pack would cost? DTG can't model new trains and just give them away.

I would have been interested in BRB had it included just one new train (preferably a 1st-gen DMU, but original-config HST would have worked too). But then, that was never comprehended by this project, which right from the outset was NOT going to include a new route or rolling stock.

In my view, DTG's biggest failing here was not marketing this as a scenario pack from the outset, rather than putting it in the roadmap as a "Loco DLC." A lot of the negativity I am reading stems I think from disappointed expectations.

 

They gave out some mixed messages. Someone seemed to recall Matt saying it would primarily be of interest to those who didn't have the locos. I don't remember that, but I definitely remember Sam describing it quite specifically as a scenario pack in one recent stream. I bought it on that basis and, after a cursory look, I don't have any regrets. I just paid $20 for a car wash. Enough said.

 

This is why this is a very strange DLC...as it is both. It's essentially a scenario pack if you are an existing customer who already owns the 52, 101 & 08 courtesy of the other routes or it's a loco DLC if you own no other content (then you are enticed to purchase the other routes anyway to activate all the layers). It's just diffcult to ascertain who this DLC is primarily aimed towards

 

If the company is giving mixed messages then I fear they probably didn't even know who this pack was 100% for themselves. It didn't make some hardcore br blue fans happy with all the inaccuracies, some people who owned all the locos weren't so happy to have to pay for the same trains again, it was advertised as a Loco Dlc on the Roadmap when it clearly was not, a $22.99 price tag for some is way too expensive even for casuals for the value and NTP would be a better experience. I've seen a few regret their purchases on Reddit and one on the forums. One managed to get a refund on a youtube comment I saw. In my opinion I do get people wanted another BR Blue experience but I don't think this pack should have been made. They should've have spent the resources making this pack on something else. It was not well advertised, it had clear inaccuracies and this pack seemed a quick way for dtg to earn some quick cash no matter how much work went to make it and the amount of times dtg tried to brush those statements off in the pre release stream. As the op of this thread has said it probably won't be getting many positive reviews and if it does get a couple thumbs up, it probably won't represent the whole community. The idea is good but it failed in execution

 

As the owner of every single content for TSW and TSW2 for 9.99 € I would have purchased this new package at launch. However, money aside, I find it morally wrong to ask for € 17.99 for new Timetables. Moreover, finding myself on consoles, I will not be able to benefit from the 10% discount at launch nor from the semi-permanent discounts found on Steam.

Of the fact that the Class 52 (paid at launch € 13.99) has been revised (it reminds me of the same operation done for the Class 66 in ECW, where at least an entry was added to the on-board computer to deactivate the braking system) me it can matter less than nothing and I challenge anyone, apart from the livery, to notice the differences.

 

I think what doesn’t help is that it’s a new category of DLC for DTG. The messaging may have been mixed from DTG staff but it’s not a loco DLC or a route DLC (or even a scenario DLC), however, it’s a timetable DLC. There is an update to core that allows them to add multiple timetables, which yes might seem pricey, but as Sam said DTG is a business and they have staff to pay and the gameplay team took up some time to make this so they need to be paid for their work. It’s actually not a bad price for extra hours of gameplay. If this was a title costing £60 and this was extra DLC at this price, I doubt people would complain this much.

DTG maybe made some mistakes in the branding, but in their defence it’s a new area for them and I’m sure they are learning how to keep the message clearer for next time and how to tell us about in the future.

I am sure there are people who will be against the DLC from the beginning and despite seeing the gameplay live won’t change their opinion on the DLC, but it’s why they give us preview streams so we can see how it is and whether we want to buy it based on that.

Yes there are some obvious bugs with this, but nothing is perfect and they are working on them. Not all DLC will appeal to everyone but what is new, apart from that it’s a new category of add-on.

 

Honestly, if I had not bought the West Somerset line and the class 52, I would have sprung for it. Atleast to drive the locos. That is one route which I don't like because it is too slow, the reason why I generally stay away from North American routes. The other jarring thing is that the route is half electrified which I am sure was not done in the 70s. If DTG completes electrification and releases new time table with the electric locos and time table, I would preorder instantly.