Tips For Making My Gaming More Realistic. How To Play?

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by Nuggit82, Mar 11, 2021.

  1. Nuggit82

    Nuggit82 New Member

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    Hi!
    Im fairly new to this simulator/game but still have played long enough to be able to follow the schedules OK and stopping at the stations and such. BUT this is with the helpers turned on. I wonder if anybody could give me pointers as how to make it more realistic.
    For example when driving the DB BR 406 ICE 3M... I have understood that the speed signs are pretty much just the speed with the 0 left out, so 14 means 140km/h and so on.
    The signals however I know is a lot more advanced than Green means go and so on... is there any tutorial or documentation as how to read these? (with the helpers turned off)

    and most importantly, are there any "distance signs" or how I should call them that could help me decide when to start slowing down for the next stop? Right now I go by the distance helper on the screen. Doesnt feel too realistic though.

    Any suggestions is greatly appreciated :)
    /Complete beginner :)
    /Niklas
     
  2. Scorpion71

    Scorpion71 Well-Known Member

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    You may find this video that Matt did very helpful for the ICE3 and Signalling/PZB. There are also other vids on there that may be of help to you.

     
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  3. paweuek

    paweuek Active Member

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  4. Nuggit82

    Nuggit82 New Member

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    Fantastic, thanks to both of you. Will check these out!
     
  5. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    There are a few german signalling guides online, I know PTGrail did one on YouTube but that was for TS classic. Much of it applies to TSW though so a good watch nonetheless

    This comes down to route knowledge and learning, exactly the same as real life drivers would do. My advice would be to do a learning run (or ten) and write down things like where line speed limits come and go, where specific divergences are (where you switch tracks for certain paths), and of course where braking points are, both for stopping at platforms but also generally. Good idea on this is get a straight level piece of track a few miles ahead of you where you have a known stopping or via point (you can do this in scenario planner)
    Get the loco up to a certain speed (75 or 90mph or 140kmh etc) and then put the loco in 50% braking and let it come to a complete stop. you now know how long it takes that loco to apply the brakes to the set force, and slow to a stop with no further input
    You can then start to gauge such things "for real" so when coming towards a station at 140kmh you know when to start braking. Then take notes of whats lineside at those points. It could be "100m after a certain signal" or "15 seconds after that green house on the right goes past"
    Either way always remember NOT to rely on full braking, because you will always want to keep something in reserve

    The only other thing I can think of right now is when driving stopping services which are not full platform length it pays to make note of which END of the platform you stop at. There's nothing worse than entering a platform at 30mph and thinking you're bang on to stop at the end and then you see the 2 car stop half way along the platform
     
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  6. Nuggit82

    Nuggit82 New Member

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    Thank you for this information, very helpful!
    However... I mean, when driving down a route, I expect there are some distance hints as to when the next station is? or is it all done by visual cues in the environment?. I mean... even if I know that I will need... 2km to stop the train. I need to know WHEN im 2km away from where I want to stop. Hope Im making sense:)

    One other thing I cant understand... When im passing a speed restriction... for example: the old speed restriction is 70km/h. I pass a speed restriction sign saying 140km/h. I wait until the locomotive has passed the sign and start accelerating... But immediately the hud tells me im overspeeding. the speed restriction on the hud only changes like 10-20 seconds later. Why is that?
     
  7. ASRGT

    ASRGT Well-Known Member

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    You must wait until the rear of the train passes the speed sign.
     
  8. FeralKitty

    FeralKitty Well-Known Member

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    You have to wait until the entire train has cleared the signal before you accelerate.

    Otherwise the rest of the train is still within the restricted speed, and it would be traveling faster than the limit when you accelerate too soon.
     
  9. Nuggit82

    Nuggit82 New Member

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    Makes perfect sense when you think about it!:)

    One final question (and once again thank you all for your help)
    I have now started to get a grip on some basic signals, one thing I cannot get my head around still is when the speed limit is going down. That is as far as I can see just shown by the "speed sign"... BUT since you are not allowed to pass that sign at a higher speed...
    If Im zooming down the track at 250km/h... and all of the sudden... there is a 70km/h sign... there must be a way that shows that "a lower speed ahead" or?... thanks again:)
     
  10. FeralKitty

    FeralKitty Well-Known Member

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    The signaling system uses distant signals to let you know the state of an upcoming main signal. Those signals provide plenty of time and distance to react to restrictions ahead.

    If you start slowing down at the distant signal, you won't be going 250 km/h by the time you reach the main signal.

    There's a signaling guide on Steam which gives a good overview of the different systems in use.
    Steam Community :: Guide :: Signalling guide (UK/DE/US)

    Once you're familiar with the signals and driving in general, you can start to learn how to use some of the train protection systems such as LZB and PZB. These safety systems will help (or ensure that) you slow down in advance of upcoming restrictions.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2021
  11. Nuggit82

    Nuggit82 New Member

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    Yes, the signal speed restrictions makes sense. But what I think Im referring to ( might be wrong) is the track restriction speed or whatever its called=)
    The signal says full green but the track has a speed restriction
     
  12. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    The German routes really came to life for me running pzb and sifa. I tend to expect something whenever I see an amber. A yellow number on signal is upcoming speed warming, white are when it applies. There are triangle signs in orange warning you too ⚠️
     
  13. FeralKitty

    FeralKitty Well-Known Member

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    There are two speed limits in play. One is the (higher) track speed, and the other is the signal speed.

    You have to observe the signal speed, even if the track speed is higher. If your HUD is off, you'll have to learn how to read the signal speeds in addition to the green/yellow/red lights.

    If it's confusing or overwhelming at first, drive with (some or all of) the HUD on. It will help to notice how the HUD current and upcoming speed changes as you approach or pass various lights and boards.
     
  14. Nuggit82

    Nuggit82 New Member

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    I think Im starting getting the hang on the signal speed restrictions. However the track restrictions are still very much a mess.
    Im currently watching and at about 1:08:55 he talks about an upcoming speed restriction from 160 km/h to 120 km/h but the signal is still green all the way.
    He uses the "speed helper" or whatever its called... which I really want to get rid of to make it more realistic. But then there is no way to notice that speed restriction until you pass the sign I guess and by then its too late? What am I missing?:)
     
  15. cilldroichid

    cilldroichid New Member

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    At 1:09:14 on the video there is an speed restriction warning board, its the yellow triangle sign with 12 on it about 1.1KM before the actual speed reduction, to warn you of the upcoming speed restriction.
     
  16. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

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    He's using the HUD as an advanced reference, but you can see in this frame (which is admittedly quite blurry) that there is a 120km/h zone upcoming in one kilometre. The yellow/orange triangle signs indicate an upcoming speed restriction in about 1km.

    The German routes are fantastic to run without the HUD because all of the information you need to know to drive safely is either in the signal aspects or on the trackside signs. Contrast this to many UK or US routes where drivers must rely on route knowledge for many restrictions.

    upload_2021-3-12_0-10-59.png

    Cheers
     
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  17. Nuggit82

    Nuggit82 New Member

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    Fantastic! thank you for that! Will try to spot these and see if I survive;)
     
  18. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately there often isn't a visual clue as to when stations are upcoming and IRL it would all be done with route knowledge. Luckily if you're talking specifically about the German system there are distance boards by the sides of the tracks which give you the distance to the next "major centre" (usually big city) so if you know where the stations are in that scheme you can work out within 100m how far away you are, but you would still need to know the locations in the first place, and also if you switch routes the distance boards will also refer to a different major centre... It's not "simple", but also not difficult in reality

    With regards to permitted speeds, the current limit applies to the line up to the point of the board, so until every last wheel has passed that board the whole train must do less than the permitted speed. This is actually true of car speed limits too, but in reality most people speed up to be meeting the new limit by the time they reach the board.

    There are actually THREE speed limits in play for a lot of the time - in reverse order:
    • VMAX - this is the maximum velocity of the train, loco or consist. Imagine a passenger train formed of a loco and carriages and all are rated at 140kmh. So long as the speed of the line never exceeds 140kmh thy can travel at full speed. Now put some wagons behind the same loco, and the wagons are rated at 110kmh. Even though the loco is rated for 140 the wagons are not so you can only drive at 110. Now put coal wagons or something really heavy behind you. You now can only drive at 90. In the UK this is shown by the headcode for freight (6,7 or 8 with 6 being the fastest) as well as on labels inside the cab and on the outside of all (or most) vehicles including carriages and wagons
    • Restricted limits - this could be due to signalling, temporary restrictions or some emergency. On the German system you often have a number showing the limit (usually divided by ten so 6 actually means 60kmh) with a pre-warning in a triangle ahead of the limit. I don't know the german system well enough to describe temporary restrictions (called TSRs in the UK)
    • Linespeed - this is the maximum rated speed of the rails themselves, the triangle above is also used for linespeed reduction pre-warnings (in the UK we have "Morpeth boards" which are similar
    The main issue you're going to have is that for the most part the HUD will only show you the line speed, and will not show you signal restrictions and certainly not VMAX
    Not sure if it shows TSRs yet as I don't remember coming across one
     
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  19. Nuggit82

    Nuggit82 New Member

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    Hi! One thing that I found when driving in the BR442... (cant remember the name of the "mission, Aachen something..) When reaching I think it was Stolberg, or if it was leaving Stolberg (sorry for the confusion) I had a 60Km/h speed limit, which was perfectly fine. But then after a junction all of the sudden speed was 120Km/h (before the 60km/h speed was 160)... I have driven past this 3 times now and cant spot any signs...
    Are there anything Im missing here? (most likely :-p)
     
  20. Oli R C

    Oli R C Member

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    I can't think of the exact situation your talking about, but that sounds like you've switched from a faster line to a slower line, with the 60Km/h limit being the junction.

    My guess is that on the run up to that junction, there was a Green/Yellow signal with a yellow 6 below (to warn of the reduction), followed by a Green/Yellow with a white 6 above (to indicate new speed limit), then you cross over to the faster line and you'll probably have green signals after.

    The new lower line speed would probably be a route knowledge thing, however sometimes there are repeated speed limit signs positioned after junctions for this reason, but not always.

    So I'm as interested as you to know the answer, but I'm guessing it's 'route knowledge'.

    I'll give that route/scenario a go, but it'll probably be tomorrow before I get a chance to. Others might have a better answer in the meantime.
     
  21. Nuggit82

    Nuggit82 New Member

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    Im sorry I couldnt give a more detailed explanation. The problem wasnt really the lowering of the speed limit, that was as you described perfectly clear with the 6 digit above the sign. If I remember correctly this was before stopping at the station. After stopping at the station and getting rolling again. the limit was still 60. until as you also described a junction to a new track. My problem was that the speed limit rose to a number I had not yet enountered during the route... Which made me wonder HOW I was supposed to know the new higher restriction?
     
  22. Oli R C

    Oli R C Member

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    No, you did explain it well, I just over explained the answer. :D

    Like I say, there MIGHT be a speed board after the junction on the new line. And it might not be STRAIGHT after - could be within say, half a KM. I'm pretty sure that this is sometimes the case, but I'm all too aware that it probably is more often not the case, which makes the answer to your question fall back to 'route/driver knowledge', but like you, I would like to think there is a better way of knowing for us sim'ers.
     
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  23. Oli R C

    Oli R C Member

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    If the German routes are what you're particularly trying to learn (and I don't blame you, I think they're the best routes in the game), then I personally recommend a YouTube channel from a Scottish guy that goes by the name Train Guy.

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGgdBjzLvWcOmnb-sjUsnlw/videos

    He does have dedicated PZB videos which are fantastic, but basically any time he does a German route video, he talks through the PZB process pretty much signal by signal, so you get to see how he's dealing with situations in real time as they crop up. So by the time you've watched a few of his videos you're already getting to grips with the nuances of PZB, which I don't think the previously suggested videos do, regardless of how good they are at explaining the 'rules' of PZB. Matt's and PTGrail's videos didn't click for me. Train Guy's did, so I highly recommend his channel. He only has 333 subscribers, so he'd probably appreciate a few more. :D
     
  24. Nuggit82

    Nuggit82 New Member

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    Thanks for that tip, I'll definately have a look :)
     
  25. Nuggit82

    Nuggit82 New Member

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    To add to my own information... I think I now understand the increasing speed restrictions. Its probably as easy as Im being transfered into the OLD track that I was on... and the speed goes back to that. Makes sense.

    However, one thing I would need help with if someone's got the energy to run this scenario is... right before you are approaching Stolberg (Rhein) Gbf speed goes down to 80... then all of the sudden, (I cant see any signs) it goes down to 60 then almost right away 40 and there are some junctions...
     
  26. Oli R C

    Oli R C Member

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    Are there any Green/Yellow signals before hand? Green/Yellow means get down to 40km/h, unless otherwise stated with a different limit.
     
  27. Oli R C

    Oli R C Member

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    I just managed to squeeze in a run of the scenario 'Aachen Turnaround', and there is indeed at Green/Yellow signal before the junction, on approach to Stolberg. So you need to have your speed down to 40Km/h at that signal. Prior to the main signal you get a distant green/yellow, and a repeater green/yellow (with white dot) to warn you of the upcoming Green/Yellow main signal. Then the main signal which is where you need to be at 40.

    Yes, the track limit does then go to 60 at the junction, then 40 thereafter, but as far as we're concerned, it's 40 from the signal.

    Distant signal (Green/Yellow)...
    ska-stolberg-green-yellow-distant.jpg

    Repeater (Green/Yellow) (white dot is a little hard to spot against tree line)...
    ska-stolberg-green-yellow-repeater.jpg

    Main signal (Green/Yellow)...
    ska-stolberg-green-yellow.jpg
     
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  28. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    On German routes, PZB and illuminated speed signals Hp2/Ks1/Zs3 etc override fixed trackside speed limits Lf6/Lf7 (they are always, necessarily, the same or lower). A Green/Yellow signal always means 40kph, unless a different speed is displayed.
     
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  29. paul.pavlinovich

    paul.pavlinovich Well-Known Member

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    You've had lots of replies with half the story... When changing from low speed to higher speed the lower restriction applies until after the last car of your train passes the speed change indicator. When changing from higher to lower speed the lower restriction applies immediately.

    Also the sign is giving you the track or route speed, there is also the concept of signal speed which isn't generally used in the UK (apart from diversions) but signals in other places can indicate you need to slow down. If you play the Long Island Rail Road (LIRR) in TSW2 for example you will encounter ATC which will give you signal based speed indications.

    Signalling is full of local rules and inconstancies from route to route and sometimes even within one route where it changes perhaps when changing from a modernised to a legacy area or from one track operator to another. Find a real life guide for the route you want to drive on and learn the real world signals because DTG are fairly good at adapting the real signalling data for use on the line.

    Paul
     
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  30. Nuggit82

    Nuggit82 New Member

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    Thank you all for the replies! Im sure there will be tons of question when I move away from germany and try to learn different signals... =)

    Is there any documentation of the signals as what each conbination means? I know they are in the train sims Youtube clip but Id rather have them printed for easy access
     
  31. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

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    This website is a great resource for learning German signalling and safety systems.
    Hp signals (Older, West German)
    Ks signals (newer)

    You will see a combination of these systems on the various TSW routes, but they all convey the same general principle: solid green means continue at line speeds, green/yellow or flashing green means an upcoming speed restriction, yellow means the next signal is red, and red means stop (and continue, if a shunting signal). It will take some time to memorise the exact meanings of the various plates and the technicalities of PZB (there are a lot!) but as long as you understand the basic principles, you will be fine nine times out of ten.

    DTG's own manuals are also a nice reference for getting a good feeling of how the system is supposed to work. Here is the manual for Rhein-Ruhr Osten, and signalling info starts on page 12. PZB info is also there for quick reference.
    upload_2021-3-13_1-28-50.png

    Cheers
     
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  32. FeralKitty

    FeralKitty Well-Known Member

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  33. Nuggit82

    Nuggit82 New Member

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    Thanks again. Think im getting the hang of this, one more thing... For example... When I pass a signal thats green/yellow I slow down to 40km/h. I guess this is valid until a signal that shows green. No matter what the line speed says, correct?
    What if a vor signal shows green, does 40km/h still remain until the next green main signal?

    Does the same apply for a yellow signal that has a additional 8sign, is the speed limit 80km/h until the next green signal no matter what line speed it is?
     
  34. obisebi

    obisebi New Member

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    As far as i know it's 40 until you have passed the junction (which these signal light colours appear in front of most). After that, you should be allowed to go back up to line speed (which may differ from the before); i think actual line speeds are indicated via signs and not signals.

    If you got a yellow signal you should go down in speed as red is next; but after you are claread by a green light, the indicated number would be the allowed max speed until further changes.

    At least thats the way i have handled it and the game has kind of confirmed this with the hud - but i am not an expert of course.
     
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  35. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

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    Each signal speed is valid for the signal block. If you get a signal telling you that you have a speed reduction (80km/h or 40km/h, etc.) then that signal speed is valid for the current signal block. If the next main signal you pass is a solid green and displays no other reductions, you can accelerate back up to line speed; if it displays another speed limit, but it is higher than your current speed, you can accelerate up to the new speed. This is true of regular cautionary aspects as well as signals with Zs3(v) speed displays, as ultimately they are both communicating a speed reduction for the signal block.

    Just a reminder of what Zs3(v) signals are:
    upload_2021-3-14_12-24-24.png

    Example:
    upload_2021-3-14_12-29-41.png

    This signal shows that this signal block has a speed reduction from line speed to 120km/h. If after you pass the next main signal, and it is a regular clear:
    upload_2021-3-14_12-30-53.png
    ...then you can accelerate back up to line speed. If instead you pass a distant signal that displays a further reduction like so:
    upload_2021-3-14_12-32-10.png
    ...then you would decelerate to 60km/h before the main signal.

    If you'd like to know more about the proper speed reductions for passing yellow signals, that is incorporated into PZB.

    EDIT: if it is not clear which is a distance and which is a main signal, all main signals will have one of these two signal plates:
    upload_2021-3-14_12-35-26.png

    Distant signals have varying marks (as there is a difference between distance and repeater signals, but let's not get into that right now!) but the easiest thing to remember is that a main signal has either a red/white or yellow/white plate like above.

    Cheers
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2021
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  36. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Under the older Hp system and often, but not always, with the new Ks system, Vorsignal or Distant Signals are marked with this sign (Ne2):
    [​IMG]
     

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