Rivet Games, Please Don't Turn Arosa Linie Into An Arcade Game.

After multiple descents and ascents in different weather conditions and at different times of the day, alternating at all times of the route between the two braking systems, I can assure you that I have not had any derailment. I therefore come to the conclusion that many people do not know how to use these GE 4-4 II systems. Or rather, exactly when to use each one.
If there is something really fun and wonderful on this route, it is having to go down those 6% gradients with maximum concentration in a realistic way, using the dynamic brake, because otherwise if you overuse the vacuum brakes IRL you risk overheating, which would lead to a loss of braking power or even cause the brake pads to catch fire. But you can NOT use the dynamic brake at any time and also depending on the terrain and its characteristics you will have to apply a percentage in each case, there are places where you have to apply it extremely softly and others where you can apply it 100%. That is the beauty of this route, which forces you to learn the route by heart to perfection. All the gradients, all the bends and every single camber so that you can anticipate what's ahead at all times.
So, I see that there are two types of users:
1- Derail twice and struggle to learn how to brake properly, appreciating that Rivet has taken the trouble to recreate the physics of gravity affecting the train and the interaction between the carriages to give us a great driving experience as close to reality as possible.
2-Derails twice and goes to the forums to say that Rivet has done it very badly because "they have never derailed in TSW", so the system is broken.
But perhaps they don't understand that this route is unique and special, unlike any other we have enjoyed in TSW so far.
Well, now I'm afraid that when they release a patch they're going to leave the route to be played in arcade mode so that the second group will stop complaining and make them happy.
So we can all go down to Chur in TGV mode, bravo.
I wish Rivet would read this and not rob us of the magnificent experience of driving this route. It is without a doubt one of TSW's best, and now I understand why they prioritised physics and performance over distant scenery. I was the first to criticise the graphics after the first stream but I didn't know how wrong I was, lucky I decided to try it for myself. I thank you for that and I can't stop recommending your purchase.

 

Fully agree with you, I can't say better.
The descent requires a bit of learning but once "controlled" is absolutely great. I arrive on time in Chur after several descents without derailment. And if you add moisture to the track, it's exhilarating.
This is the first road, on TSW, where I am so focused a good part of the way during the descent.
I take great pleasure on this line as it changes from what we had on TSW.

 

I have to second the agreement with erg73 I have made several runs and have the brakes to work as expected and have not experienced any derailments. Yes you have to pay attention to what you are doing and anticipate the gradients, ensure you slow down on slips, as you should anyway. After an initial run where I anticipated brake problems because of the complaints, used train more than regenerative and soon realized the regenerative brakes were more than adequate IF you paid attention and were always in front of the power curve so to speak.

Maybe because I used to drive ships, where you had to plan several moves ahead, I find the Arosa line a very enjoyable challenge.

 

So just because you don't experience certain bugs, the people that do are idiot? Nice statement

 

Do not see anywhere where I referred anyone as an idiot. Also have not experienced any bugs when driving correctly. So wondering where you are coming from with your comment.

 

At no time have I ever claimed to treat anyone as an idiot. But if that is what you thought and I have offended you, I apologise. Perhaps it is because I have little command of the English language and some sentences can be misunderstood.

 

I took my first full length trip down from Arosa to Chur and I have to say I was pleasantly surprised. After reading all the criticism of the route, I found it fun and challenging.

The train and the stations and the vicinity of the track are nicely modeled.

The distant mountains, covered in snow, looked majestic and imposing.

The locomotive is a handful, to say the least, but the learning curve is not too steep. I had no derailments, taking the switches at moderate speed.

The speed limits are too high, I think. It is something of a rollercoaster of a ride.

The timetable is very hard to maintain, at least on the downward journey.

There aren't enough passengers for a tourist train and what few there are seem reluctant to board the train.

There aren't many AI trains, only 2 for the entire trip.

All in all, a well modeled route with a few bugs. e g: no stars at night, so far, as mentioned elsewhere by stujoy.

 

I found the descent and the requirement for you to pay very close attention to brakes and blending between the two to be the real redeeming factor of this route, while I am all for ensuring physic interactions don't cause coaches to flip out into 20 barrel rolls I tend to agree with OP the real key to this route is learning how to manage the breaking on the way down striping out any fear of derailment just dilutes the experience to one that's just not worth playing.
Again if legit collision bugs are found fair enough but dialing it back for the sake of making it easier no thanks.

 

I have had random derailments when climbing on a straight in one of the scenarios. There are definitely some bugs that are causing derailments in addition to the descent. They would need to fix it. But yeah, the descent is fun cos you are on your toes constantly to stop the train from derailing.

 

I derailed a faith!
I did not understand at the beginning why, I started again and I again derailed!

After 3 attempts, I finally understood how to drive the train, it is much more complex than what we have been used to so far.

Now that I have a perfect command of the driving, I have a lot of fun.
I love the vibe of this line, I never really paid attention to the mountains, to be honest I'm too busy keeping the train at the right speed.

On the other hand, uphill, it is true that it is much easier, but also I have other occupations.

I wandered around town to find some hidden objects, a pleasant walk.
I think I will try the climb or the decent in several times on "foot" to make a nice hike to the mountain and take some nice pictures.

I really like this road even if it is not the most beautiful.

 

I forgot the dynamic brake at one point ended up coming off the track at 74KMH with emergency vacuum and train brakes applied. Not forgetting them again!
Now, I believe there is one part where the speed limt sign says 33 but the actual track speed is 30 (uphill before one of the bridges. i need to check again). However, can anyone explain the Swiss speed signs where you have two speeds, the top one being lower than the bottom one). is it similar to the UK, where the lower speed is for loco hauled trains, and the faster for multiple units? If so, the speeds are not correct.

 

Where is the dynamic Brake? The Vacum break?

 

I agree with this statement. I've had a wonderful time with the arosa line. Mountains scenery aside.

 

No they are not idiots, but still need to learn how to drive downhill. There may be things that need improvement and more realism, but several people demonstrated you can drive Arosa downhill. I would prefer not to fiddle to much with the driving dynamics so you can no longer derail.

I support the request of the OP.

 

What we really need is someone who drives this train on this route or similar for a living to have a go and see if the train behaves correctly, then to tell us what we need to do either way.

I’ve not yet derailed or tried using full dynamic brake control on the route myself but have noticed some funky behaviour of the train over points and other places that I wouldn’t expect. This is both uphill and downhill. The power being applied isn’t correct and can fluctuate wildly when close to the set speed on more level ground and thus jolts the train back and forth. The train only has four coaches and the couplers should be set up properly and up to the task of not bouncing the train around if you are taking care, and I think the train is adding to its own instability. I’m not convinced the physics are entirely correct and they need to be spot on when dealing with the grades involved, and such a powerful loco.

I also get that there are a lot of players that don’t drive correctly (full throttle, full brake etc.) and would not be able to drive this train without learning a bit more, but it shouldn’t fall off the tracks if you get something a bit wrong.

They shouldn’t dumb it down to the point where you can abuse it and have no consequences but if they were to make it a bit more forgiving than the real thing then I wouldn’t have a huge problem with that. I’d like to be sure it’s correct as it is and I actually doubt that it is, but I can’t tell because I don’t have all the necessary info. I do know you can’t get the right speed when going uphill because the speed set isn’t right, so 100% faith cannot be assured.

It’s a great route though.

 

I always derailed at the turn towards the turn. So now I drive through the switches 15km / h and everything is fine.

 

On speed limit signs, the top number is for passenger trains, and the bottom number is for freight trains.

 

Thank you very much for your comment, this is exactly what I meant. With effort you can master this route to perfection and then it becomes much more satisfying to drive it.

 

I may be wrong but I thought I understood Jasper_Rivet to say in a stream that they had simplified it because IRL it is even more complex and difficult.

 

Exactly this point. I'm not convinced that using a combination of dynamic and vacuum brakes is what they do in reality, however unless a RhB driver comments we will never know for sure. Using vacuum for such a continuous period would do no good to the brakes.

However, it appears that most of the derailments occur when going over point work using dynamics and appears to be more than just user error.

Also firmly agree, otherwise every time a RhB trainee had a go, they'd be a derailment if they made the slightest mistake. It's a bit strange that the dynamics are not strong enough to stop the train, but are strong enough to derail a 4 coach train...

 

The best place to ensure Rivet hears you on this is over on their forum.

If there are issues caused by genuine bugs, they need to be addressed. However, I agree with, and have already shared the sentiment expressed here, about not "dumbing down" the simulation due to user error. More voices would be welcome.

https://forums.rivet-games.com/forum/support-en/3922-random-derailing-on-arosa-line

 

I am still waiting for a real driver to comment on the physics on this route, or to come across some RhB documentation

Watching how I derailed from the outside perspective, to me it seemed like a semi realistic thing, but I would wait for someone with more experience.

The thing I found interesting about the route is how curves seems to affect the train more than anything else, and I did read some people saying it's probabily unrealistic using the vacuum brake to maintain speed like shown on Rivet's video tutorial, for the reason you pointed out above (overheating).

So, as said before I will hold judgement on how realistic Arosa is.

Although having said that I'm 100% for the idea of not dumbing down the game, at the end it has to be realistic, but honestly this route is not much different or more challenging than any other, you just have to hold the right speed and remind to pass a bit slower over certain parts of the tracks... it's not much different than having to remeber when to use the air brake on LGV, to maintain speed usually you only need a tap to release or apply the dynamic brake just a little from time to time, however it was a lot of fun doing the freight runs in the scenarios, particularly the shunting part, that was fun and challenging, but the timetable seems rather flat and boring.

 

We definitely need some confirmation from RhB drivers, but it is likely based on trains throughout the world you would use dynamic mostly, vacuum only to drop speed a bit or to stop at a station.

No matter if that's the case or not - the train getting a stroke every time you go full dynamic over points (while within speed limits) is totally wrong and needs to be fixed, there's no way around that. So yes, Rivet (maybe even DTG if it's a core problem) has things to fix. Arcadey or not - this is not how trains should behave.

 

Exactly. It's not about dumbing things down or making things arcade like, but instead is making sure the train acts realistically.

I certainly haven't read any articles about RhB trains having deadly dynamic brakes that could throw the train down a cliff at any point.

 

Indeed. And it's already been said, but worth repeating, this elastic train effect is happening both down and up hill. I even recall it happening when I'm still on the streets of Chur, heading uphill. Certainly needs fixed.

And on speed, considering you can reach speeds upwards of 90kmh before derailing, I would say the game is already dumbed down.

 

You may have seen my posts on the experiments on this line. While I agree you can control the train down the hill and you can have fun doing it. Respectfully, I have to disagree that the process is realistic. Its not physically possible to leave friction brakes of any kind applied for the hour or so it takes to go down the hill. The heat would be too much.

My analysis of the drive over various circumstances is that the fourth carriage is the issue. Whether it is an issue with a count of four carriages and the weight or whether the brake van/bicycle/ski van actually has a problem that I do not know - I cannot find any scenario or regular service that puts you in a position where you can make a train with loco and only that van to prove or disprove the theory.

The issue manifests only when you have that carriage and a curve (or switch as said by some people) and the track changes gradient at the same time. You can go over that spot at 5km/h with all four carriages on and it will derail if you're only on dynamics. If this was realistic these trains would derail in real life every time they got a driver that was a bit distracted or having a bad day.

I'm really happy that you enjoy the route, I do to - it is very challenging, but I would rather it was real and still challenging.

Here are a couple of videos of actual trains coming down from Arosa - I wish you could see the controls.

and you can clearly hear the train is running down hill on the dynamic only. The driver occasionally applies some train brake as you can hear the hiss of apply and release.

This one the driver runs on dynamics all the time but applies and releases the train brake just before many but not all of the curves

There are plenty of others. The only one I've seen where you can see the controls at least some of the time its an GE 6/6 on a different line. In that they drive the same way, dynamics all the time with occasional train brake. That driver only uses the train brake to stop the train and like most drivers on other railways also uses the loco brake to bail off the locomotive brakes when he does use the train brake.

Paul

 

Couldn't you make a downhill run in the Scenario planner from that Arosa depot and leave the other cars there? Even if the van car is at the end, there are some manual points there IIRC.

 

I agree. It is interesting to note how the criticism of the scenery has died down as people get into the route. Yes there are bugs but it has become a favourite of mine and due to the concentration required to drive properly (or as best i can with my limited knowledge) there isn't really the time to look at scenery anyway.
i am impressed with the route and the time taken to give us a new type of challenge. Roll on Rivet's next release. If they can keep improving and providing new, innovative challenges then they, and ultimately, us will have plenty to look forward to in the future.
This is only my opinion and I realise that different people will see things differently. But I for one am happy so far.

 

This is the issue, such derailments by use of the dynamic brakes simply are not realistic. The use of vacuum brakes for nearly a hour would likely lead to the brake pads being worn down at an alarming rate. There's also the significant risk that continuous use could cause them to fail in their entirety. In which case you're screwed, as the Rivet interpretation of the Dynamic Brake won't help.

 

I'd hazard a guess that those who disliked the scenery have simply not purchased it, and therefore aren't complaining.

Those of us who have purchased it, are more likely to complain about the dumbed down service mode and the fact the physics appear wonky.

 

I just derailed at the switch. I haven't derailed when using dynamic brakes. I drive this train like a tram and I am careful on switches and sharp curves.

 

That is accurate, only 3 trains are needed to run the daily timetable taking just over 1 hour to complete a run.
In the peak winter and summer tourist seasons, 2 extra trains are added, giving 5 trains total to the route each day.

The majority of the year it's just 3 trains.

 

The dynamic brake is on the same steering wheel as the accelerator. There is a point where it is switched off (0). So if you turn it to the right ( Fahren) you will accelerate and if you turn it to the left ( Bremsen) you will activate the dynamic brake. It is graduated from 0 to 100%.
What you have to understand is that with vacuum brakes you get a homogeneous braking because it acts on the brakes of the whole train, locomotive and wagons. This is best, but the problem is that on such long inclines, if you overdo it too much, you will cause the brake shoes to overheat and reduce the braking power. This could even cause a fire. If you are a frequent road traveller you have probably seen trucks that have had this happen to them because the brake pads got stuck to the disc until they caught fire.
To avoid these situations, dynamic brakes were created, which use a complex system that uses electricity to trigger the braking effect. (As a curiosity, a similar system called retarder or intarder is used in trucks, but they use the gearbox to trigger the braking effect).
The problem with this system is that it only acts on the locomotive. This causes the wagons to squeeze against each other and also against the locomotive on a descent. So if the section is straight or with open curves there is no problem, but in tight or very sharp curves the corners could collide with each other causing a derailment.
This can be avoided in the game by using only the vacuum brakes because the frictional heating that occurs is not simulated. But this would of course not be realistic, IRL drivers use dynamic brakes.
To make it as immersive as possible (although I don't know if this is the official way for RhB drivers to do it) is as follows:
-Steep downhill sections with very tight corners: vacuum brakes only. If the downhill is of a lower gradient, they can be combined with dynamic braking by applying it at a maximum of 20%.
-Mixed downhill sections with open curves: Combination of both brakes. In most cases it is possible to apply the dynamic brake at 50% and the vacuum brake at 30%, even on sections with a 6% gradient.
-Downhill on straight sections: Only dynamic braking, here we will take advantage of the opportunity to cool the brake pads. It may be necessary to apply it at 100%, but always do it slowly and progressively.

I would add that it is important to know the route by heart, especially on night journeys or in poor visibility, to be able to anticipate actions. Because the key is that anticipation, if you act when the 6% descent or the curve has already started, it may be too late. For example, if you have a steep straight stretch ahead of you, start applying the dynamic brake progressively before the downhill starts. If you wait to apply it on the downhill, gravity will cause the wagons to push your locomotive too hard causing a pendulum motion. This is very well simulated and you can feel them pushing and you can see it on the ball of the acceleration/deceleration line on the HUD.

 

You may have heard him say that at some point. But you can’t have him saying they’ve simplified it, and Natalie now saying they have made it super accurate, and Jasper giving incorrect (or incomplete) advice on how it should be driven with 90% vacuum brakes. I thought of going to extremes and saying it’s a cover story because they know it’s not right but I think it’s more likely to be a genuine attempt at advice on how to drive it now, while they look into fixing it. But I can’t be sure because there are many voices.

 

Sorry stupid question I know but which is the dynamic brake on this loco?

 

I don't think it's any deliberate attempt to mislead us (and that's coming from cynical me), but is likely to be one of the following:

- This is genuinely how they drive on the RhB (looking incredibly unlikely)
- Rivet believe this is the prototypical way (possible)
- Rivet know this is the wrong way, but struggled to get the dynamics to work, so they've adapted the tutorial to cover a blended method of driving (I personally think this is the most likely reason)

 

Thank you for sharing our concerns to the Rivet forums. I have read the thread. To be honest, Jasper's statement "we're currently looking into making this more forgiving" appears in that thread and that does not reassure me at all.
I luckily have not suffered those random derailments that other users have reported, even uphill. This should indeed be fixed, but simplify the physics more on downhill because it would totally break the immersion.

 

There's no mystery about using the dynamic brake on a locomotive. If you've learned how to use it effectively on, say, Sand Patch Grade, it shouldn't be any more difficult on other routes such as Arosalinie, if the developer has modeled it correctly. The notion of driving for an hour or more with the vacuum brake close to full service is ridiculous, as Matt suggested on the recent stream. You use the dynamic brake to maintain speed on the downgrade, with the throttle at 0, applying the train brake sparingly, if necessary, for short periods. It's a pity that TSW2 does not model the train brakes so that they would overheat and fail if you used them excessively. That would force developers to model the dynamic brakes correctly.
As for the derailments, which I have managed to avoid by going at ridiculously slow speeds over switches, that also should not happen with correct physics. I don't know of any other route where I have derailed a train while driving within acceptable limits.
Also, as I mentioned previously, if these are the real life speed limits on this route, I'm not sure I would feel safe riding it. I like the route overall, but I felt at times as if I were on a fairground coaster.

 

Ok, maybe Rivet got a Simugraph integer slightly wrong.
1 and 2 are believable of course.

3. BS

4. BS, works fine if you think about it! Players who have thought about it have noted that the downhill run is a challenge and fun to do, and can do it by thinking and balancing brakes....no derailments.

Blow me, train driving isn't all about pressing WASD and stroking the dog.

I think most of you have become complacent to the DTG given physics, over multiple genres.
And yes, I own Arosa and haven't derailed.

 

The number of AI trains is realistic, it's not a busy commuter route.

The speed limits are realistic and true to life, however, the speed limit is a limit after all and doesn’t mean you have to go the max. speed allowed the entire trip. A less strict timetable would definitely help though.

 

If the speed limit is 30, I'm driving 30 (or as close as I can achieve).
Watching cab rides, it's also clear they don't slow down for the tighter bends. They generally get up to speed and stay there until the speed limit reduces or they reach a station.

 

I also haven't heard of any RhB trains plummeting to their doom because too much dynamic brakes have been used. Human error often happens, so I'm sure this would have made the news by now.

Vacuum brakes are NOT designed for continuous use like this. They work on friction, producing a lot of heat in their use. I'd fully expect them to be on fire, as a wagon with locked on brakes would suffer a similar fate.

Also, just because you can get the train from A to B without derailing does not mean that the physics are right. I can drive a car in GTA, but I can absolutely state that cars do not handle like that.

 

But that's the thing, Nat. The issue here is that the physics at present appear not to be realistic: the simulated train derails under circumstances which would not cause a derailment in the RW. That isn't a matter of 'helping struggling players,' that's fixing an inaccurate simulation. (and TBH, I'm not necessarily convinced about Rivet's grasp of the real-world physics given that their driving tutorial gets the braking all wrong- it seems to me that this "vacuum first" approach is a gamey workaround resulting from the issues with the model).

 

What can happen is that they actually melt- so now the wheels are running in a lubricant of liquid iron. This happened at, e.g., San Bernardino, where a runaway with full emergencies on still topped 100 mph before it derailed.

 

Something is definitely wrong with the physics. I suspect it has more to do with sprung buffers than brakes, because the traine bobs too much, especially uphill in chur where the double track becomes single track, or when departing from Langweis going uphill.
The physics can't cope with the tight curves and sudden direction changes. That is the main reason why we get derailments.

I strongly disagree with the title of this topic.

 

Affirmative.
The dubious physics are another factor pushing it down to the level of possible sale purchase when it's 40 or 50% off.
I certainly don't want to see arcade physics on any train in the sim (previous comments about DMU's in TS refer) but there has to be some degree of robustness when ensuring the train doesn't fall off the rails. You can have realistic acceleration and braking performance without the wheels and rails being made out of tissue paper.

 

Well, the 'Schweizerische Fahrdienstvorschriften' prescribe following process:

- sawtooth method
As soon as the electric brake of the traction vehicle is activated when driving downhill with a maximum speed of> 40 km / h
alone is no longer sufficient to keep the speed, the sawtooth method must be used. This will thermal overloading of wheels and brake discs and brake pads are avoided and there is no risk of the brakes being exhausted when driving downhill.
With a sufficiently strong braking (main line pressure on 4.6 to 4 bar) the speed is to be reduced so far,
that between the release and the initiation of the new braking a time of at least 90 seconds remains

(translated with Google translator, page 634 for more detail)

For routes in Germany with more then 4.0% gradients, it is prescribed:

(1) When going downhill, the brakes must first be applied combined. The compressed air brake remains active. The speed controls are given priority with the dynamic brake to the extent that their braking force is sufficient.

(2) Is the leading vehicle with a single release air brake equipped and without dynamic brake, is on the descent before initiating a release stage to regulate the braking to increase the brake cylinder pressure with the additional brake.

(Besondere Vorschriften für das Bremsen, Nr. 12)

It is forbidden to solely use the dynamic brakes.