Yet Another Real Life Driver’s Experience....

As I have been saying AND IGNORED the class 166 is TOO fast. God knows who did the testing for this car crash of a model. I wish they’d get this sorted promptly. It is just unforgivable!!!

 

IIRC you weren't ignored but they told you that making a train accelerate slower will affect the timetable and the position of the train at any given time, which means that, drastically reducing the acceleration of the 166 would mean a timetable rebuild, and the 166s will also end up affecting the other services (HSTs and Freight services)

 

I’ve replied on your duplicate thread in Technical Reports before seeing this. Please don’t post the same thread in multiple places, it splits the replies.

 

They should have thought about that in the beginning.
‘ I know let’s build a train that accelerates double the rate in real life and try to palm that off as ‘realism’ ......yes I can hear the design team now.

how about do some research and sort it out.

Totally unacceptable and in my industry you’d never work again if you had that attitude.

Edited by DTG Natster - Removed inappropriate language

 

you got to remember this was their first ever passenger route so they were bound to have to do stuff like this. is it game breaking no is it end of the world no is there more serious things they should be working on fixing yes

 

No need to be so aggresive man, I just repeated the reason why this discrepancy between real life and the simulator still exists, and will probabily never get fixed, if they ever do another route with the 166 I would hope it will be better and more accurate to real life.

If you want to stay here and talk about what should have been done better in the past there is a huge, almost infinite list, but it's more important to focus on what can be done in the future.

 

When it comes to safety systems starting out isolated, it's to help new players who are unfamiliar with the game get used to the basic controls. It's not a good experience for a new player when the train starts randomly beeping and grinds to a halt.

Those that ARE familiar with DSD and AWS can easily turn them on. It's really not that difficult. It's not as if you have to dive into an options menu.

 

Well that's their problem really? Why was it made so fast to begin with? If this is really their reasoning then that just means "too much of a hassle, we don't care".

 

Well, yes and no.

Is it worth to possibly recreate the whole timetable to make one train more accurate to real life? I personally think it is, but then if I put yourself in their shoes... doing a huge amount of work to correct a little nuance on a train which bothers a very little amount of people, with next to no return, would I do it? No...

In my personal opinion there are more urgent things to fix and spend the time and effort needed to rebuild and entire timetable... they fixed the performance of some trains (HST, Class 377) if they can, that means they care about the trains being accurate to real life, but in this case it is not as easy as changing some values in SimuGraph.

Hopefully they learned their lesson and this sort of things will not happen in the future

 

DMUs with Voith transmission have never been DTGs strongpoint. Just have to look at the arcade physics of the original 166 RS/RW/TS and all the other second gen units which referenced it. The intermediate throttle positions simply acted as a speed control, thus that if you were coasting downhill at 70MPH, applied power in Notch 3 or 4, the unit would actually slow down!

 

You do realise this is a game don’t you? It’s as much for casual gamers as experienced train drivers. We’re not all experts.

If it goes too fast, why not just drive it slower?

 

It's a goddamn train simulator. It's expected to simulate trains, and it's pretty sad if it can't do it properly.

We could call it a small thing with a lot of hassle to fix for little reward, sure. But the point is, it wouldn't be an issue at all if they made it right originally to begin with.

It's not okay, as they keep making mistakes like this constantly. Mistakes that could be avoided initially with a little bit more care and wouldn't result in a lot more work later on. They're literally making it more difficult for themselves.

 

You’re right. Look at that abysmal attempt at the Class 150/0 they did a few years back in TS Classic. Accelerated at biblical scales and was literally 1000000% crap. Compare that to the Armstrong Powerhouse’s 150 ( which is bang on the real life figures as I have said many times ) and you’ll see the scale of the problem. I’d have thought they would have learnt their lesson but clearly they haven’t.

As they say, I can just about accept that they didn’t test it near enough to begin with..... pretty shoddy but I IF they apologised, did more research and fix the issue it wouldn’t be so bad. Just to say ‘ too many timetables to re-do’ is in my book as a highly trained professional musician - just unacceptable’

 

I swear the 166 had slower acceration on tsw2020 than in tsw2....

 

Do you know what spoils the game for me (yes, I called it a game cos that’s what it is). It’s not the failings of the routes/locos etc. It’s the constant moaning of all the people who want exact realism in a game. To be honest, I’m pretty sick of it.

If I’d listened to all the moans (not the constructive criticism, just the moaners) about, say, Arosalinie, I wouldn’t have bought it. As it is, I am thoroughly enjoying it.

Constructive criticism (such as the Sam Robinson’s post that the OP recreated above) is fine and necessary but the way the OP has come on here shouting in capitals, swearing in a later post (something which I have been called out for even though I had asterisked the word - which I know now is not allowed) is neither necessary nor acceptable.

I’m sorry but the class 166 is one of my favourite trains to drive in the game. I don’t care whether it accelerates too fast. It is fun to drive, which is what it should be about. Give me fun over realism every time, or better still a good compromise.

OK rant over, have a happy Easter Monday.

 

Here's the thing though... On the one hand we have SPG where you have to spend 10 minutes jumping around and walking between cabs to ensure all your locos and DPU's are talking to each other. Then we have the 166 which accelerates like a bat out of hell! So the whole thing is a mixture of game and simulation, serving neither one master in an entirely satisfactory way.

 

Well you can easily fix your issue by simply not reading rant posts. Those who would want a realistic experience in a goddamn simulator that advertises itself with realism, can't do that though, as it's up to the developers to fix issues.

By the way, getting performance data correct is not "exact realism", it's pretty basic stuff to expect. If you're fine with it this way, good and there is no problem with that, and I understand that the constant complaining can be annoying. But accept the fact that TSW is supposed to be a train simulator, so it's understandable that train enthusiasts expect realism from a train simulator.

And the main issue is still the silly response of "too much hassle, can't be bothered". If a developer acknowledges a problem in their application, but refuse to fix it, that's just bad.

 

Admittedly there should be a menu option to set a preference.

 

You’ve posted the same thread at least 5 times. I’ve already given you data on the GWE Route for the Class 166 a couple of months ago which I’ll paste again below. There’s no need to write a thread every time you speak to a driver.

In real life, leaving Slough, a turbo would be doing about 65mph at Langley. In the game, it’s about 77mph.
In real life, you would get to 90mph about Heathrow Airport Junction (7.25 miles) In the game, it’s about West Drayton (5.25 miles)
I also acknowledged that they were particularly quick for the first 20-30mph where it felt like an EMU.

What surprises me most is that you’ve made very clear your opinions on foreign routes...

... yet you want sympathy from the community because your turbo accelerates a bit faster than it should :/ They’ve already given you a response which I’ve attached at the bottom. Writing thread after thread about it is not going to do anything unless all you’re after is sympathy.

I also suggest you stop getting your stopwatch and graphs out. There’s no such thing as a train being perfectly modelled simply because every unit behaves slightly different even though they are the exact same class of traction e.g. some units, a step 1 is a solid brake application and feels like a step 1.5. Another unit of the exact same traction might have a step 1 brake application that is complete pants and only feels like step 0.5. The same can be said about acceleration, one unit might take 5 miles to get to 90mph while another unit might take 6 miles. That’s not to say that I’m denying there’s a problem with the Class 166 acceleration but it’s still generally an enjoyable driving experience- the sounds in particularly are a big improvement from TSW where it was almost silent in the cab.

I’ve had TSW since day one and at first, I was worried for the future of the game as there were so many issues. But looking back now, the game has progressed so much in all departments.

Traction: most notably for me is the HST which is worlds apart between TSW and TSW 2.
Infrastructure: Flashing yellows working for the first time on SEHS, PRI working on GWE, night time driving on SEHS is worlds apart to GWE which is so dark that you can barely see the track in front of you.
Features: Functioning level crossings, Passenger information screens, scenario mode, livery editor, etc...

There’s probably lots more that I’m forgetting but the point is that I’m optimistic for the future of TSW. I’m sure in a few years time, I can add so much more to the list- announcements, working TPWS grids, approach release signals, who knows maybe even a multiplayer or guard mode.

Here is DTG’s response from a thread you wrote last month. It’s a shame they can’t fix it but writing thread after thread isn’t going to do anything.

 

I cannot even comprehend getting inside the mind of someone who can easily accept blatant inaccurate physics. That’s like me playing a Chopin piece of in the J.S Bach - I’d never work again.

You have no place in this discussion if you don’t care if it accelerates too fast. If you want to play with your toys then do so. I am interested in SIMULATION not gaming. This does not simulate at all and should be done properly. End of story.

 

I don’t want sympathy - I just want the bloody issue fixed. Why can Armstrong Powerhouse be so precise and incredibly detailed with their physics and train characteristics and yet these clowns just don’t care about improving their work. That is the point I am trying to make.

 

Sam aka DTGPrtogagonist plays keys and is often a good one to talk to re this sort of thing. Im sure after the holls he will share his helpfull perspective. Not the 1st time I have not been entirely happy with an element but after explanation been able to at least accept the rationale or the direction the solution is going. Im sure its not just he is a fellow musician, but it can help to understand the mindset.

 

I think it's less about not caring and more about meeting the needs/wants of the many vs the wants/needs of the few - You, and (to a lesser extent, Olaf) are the only people on here I've seen complaining about the 166's acceleration. If they were to fix it and thus have to invest a lot of time in rebuilding half a route DLC, which in the end would reset everyone's progress, I'd guess these forums would be awash with threads complaining about why DTG aren't focussing on x, y and z, or complaining that DTG are just gonna reset everyone's progress for the sake of a couple of complaints (there are people who care about that, just look at the threads complaining about inaccessible collectibles or impossible achievements). They could fix it, but it'll be a long time waiting before it's even considered (since GWE already has had some improvements in the sound department recently) and I wouldn't expect anything else to be fixed.

 

Unfortunately, they’ve made up their mind so posting more threads about it isn’t going to change anything unless you’re hoping to gain support from the community in order to pressurise DTG. If it’s support you’re after, you’re not going to get any by your comments. Calling them clowns is uncalled for. As I’ve already said, generally I’m quite impressed with the progress that they’re making since TSW first started.

Hopefully when they do make another turbo either for the Chiltern route or GWR West route, they’ll do a better job of it. What could be a current solution is they could add the Class 165 on GWE with the correct acceleration. They can’t use this in timetable mode but at least you’d be able to use scenario mode if you wanted proper physics. And to make it worthwhile, they could add a couple of branchlines such as Windsor and Greenford branches for the Class 165 to have timetabled services.

FWIW, the train simulator that my company uses doesn’t replicate real life because the braking and acceleration is way too harsh compared to the real thing. Yet this is used for training and assessments. And this is one of those proper walk in simulator cabs which they boast is state of the art and cost millions of pounds. Go figure.

 

You seem to like to put “End of Story” when you have put your point which suggests to me that your opinion is the only one that matters (also shown in your comments about foreign routes quoted above). It is not the end of the story.

I have every right to be on this forum. My opinion differs from yours. You are interested in simulation, not gaming, yet you seem to want to deny those of us who want the best of both Worlds. There’s a lot of “I want” in your posts. TSW wasn’t designed for you personally. I might want to play with my toys, but at least they are still in the pram.

Believe it or not, I respect your and everybody else’s opinion, we all want different things but the whole thread is becoming toxic with shouting and swearing and intolerance of others’ requirements from the game.

Two things I take from all this. Firstly,I suppose what this whole thread shows is what a difficult job DTG, Rivet etc have. One person wants pure simulation but too much accuracy can take away the fun for many people who just want to get in and drive. Yes it is a simulation but it needs to also appeal to the more casual user. If nothing else, this makes commercial sense.

Secondly, why did I get told off for swearing in a different thread when I blanked out the offending word but at least two people have used swear words on this thread with nothing said and no action taken?

 

I think ghawk2005 is the one with the problem and not so much DTG, ghawk did you ever think that maybe other people may like that as you so elegantly put it 'foreign rubbish'. Just coz the devs are British does not mean they only have to develop British routes and locos, It is not all about you and what you want, this is just a game and you have to accept that it is not going to be perfect, I'm really looking forward to Clinchfield and the F7 in particular (more so-called foreign rubbish) now if the F7 was not perfect then that is ok because I'm not expecting a perfect 1 to 1. I get that you have a passion for the 166 and you want it to be right but getting upset because the 166 goes a little faster than it should in real life or because DTG is not making as much of the content that you like and even throwing words around like 'foreign' is a little distasteful and for a (Royal College of Music trained “South West’s leading piano tutor”) quite unprofessional.

 

I know right, I was pretty angry when my crops just grew so fast in farming simulator, I wanted to wait the whole year for my corn.

 

Please tell me you were sarcastic with the crops part

 

In Farming Smulator you simulate farming activities, like operating the farming equipment, not the "waiting a whole year for the crops to grow" part of farming. Just like you're not simulating the "waiting a whole hour before you can depart" part of train driving either.

I don't get your point, expecting realistic train behaviour from a train simulator is pretty basic thing in my opinion, not nitpicking. I personally don't care about this one, as I don't drive UK stuff, but it paints a pretty bad overall picture when a developers straight out says "we know it's incorrect, but we don't care enough to fix it as it's too much work". As I said above, the whole issue is that they made extra work for themselves by letting this happen in the first place (by releasing the content with issues) and now they are unwilling to fix the problem.

 

Of course I was!
Just wanted to point out how weird some complaints and calls for "simulator not simulating well" are. Sure if they want everything to work exactly like in real life they have every right to ask for it, but it should not mean that they just simply get it. As other said often enough here already, one should rather have an understanding for the effort it would take in this case to fix the DMU compared to what the playerbase get out of it. Hardly anyone would have even known acceleration was wrong to begin with.
And that does not even mean that it won't get adressed in the future - it is just a project that yields no reward for the devs to do just so you need 4 more seconds to roll out of a station.

It is a years old route and they used data that was available to them at that time and now a selected few individuals feel the need to poke holes with pitchforks every month which I just don't understand all the ruckus for such a minor detail.
Especially sicne DTG have already made a statement for this topic.

 

Oakville begs to differ
literally "wait ten minutes"

 

Re Farming Simulator... actually, if you use the Seasons mod it takes a whole lot longer for the crops to ripen and you can't grow much in winter. I had great fun chopping trees down at that point...

 

Well 10 minutes is still not 1 hour, is it, lol.

 

"You can please some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you cannot please all of the people all of the time, nor please anal-retentive hyperpicky people ever."

Abraham Lincoln, more or less.

 

with swearing I'm sure it will go it's probably stayed up this long as it's Easter weekend so none of them are probably working

 

The lack of respect you show saying that all foreign routes are boring is stupendous have you spent anytime playing them or have you just touched the tutorial. At first I was unsure about German routes but now they are my go to route to play on. But just because you don't like something in a game doesn't mean it shouldn't be in a game but to say that a game which calls itself train sim world and make an argument saying that there is to many foreign routes there should be more British routes. Which you claim the reason to be is that dtg are from the uk so should prioritise UK stuff is just a face-palm. Remember we are all having this argument about a train that accelerates to fast in a game. Just think about that. You are moaning that something moves a tiny to quick in a video game. There is more things that need fixing in this game than some train that goes slightly to fast.

 

And then i now have noticed you say someone doesn't have a right in your discussion because they don't agree with you. Hello you have posted on a public forum where anyone can see your post and has the right to talk in it. Everyone has an opinion and if you can't respect that then I don't know what you can do

 

Actually I think the OP makes an interesting analogy with the music example. Personally, as someone who enjoys most types of music as an art form and an entertainment, I would be pleased to hear Chopin played in the style of JS Bach and I enjoy variations, experimentation and, in the popular music world, cover versions where the artist has done something original with a song. However, as a professional teacher, he has to think technically and stick within the rules. If he is teaching students to pass exams or for a career in music, he may very well not work again unless he teaches them by the book.

Neither of these attitudes is right or wrong, just different and I wouldn’t be happy to be told I had no right to enjoy music the way I do because someone else sees it differently and, for whatever reason, has to have everything just as the original composer wrote it. It just goes to show that different people want different things from a medium. The same goes with TSW.

 

Ah. I see, you are allowed to swear weekends and bank holidays. That’s where I went wrong. Must have missed that in the forum rules

Seriously though, I can’t believe that a professional company such as DTG would have a forum that is left completely unmoderated for long periods of time. Even the most amateur forums (by amateur I purely mean non professional, no reflection on their quality) have mods. Volunteers anybody?

I’m not offended by the language by the way but rules is rules.

 

100% this. I love classic British traction but can’t wait for Clinchfield to arrive on Thursday and fire up those F7s. Likewise, the hustle and bustle of the German routes can provide a great experience. At the end of the day, it is not a study level simulator (not even the new MS Flight Sim claims that), it’s entertainment software and that’s what it does!

 

Ok, aside from the incorrect acceleration of the Class 166, I think the guys 2nd point is much more important: "Closing the doors before the signal comes off". To me, it brakes immersion more than an incorrect speed (because I honestly do not know how fast this foreign train I've never seen actually is), and it affects all routes.

Now, I'm not familiar with railway operations in other countries, but I know that in my country (Netherlands) they won't close the doors when the signal is still at danger. Comments on this forum suggest that's similar in the UK. I'd be surprised if it were different in Germany.

So this issue seems to affect pretty much any DLC...

 

OK yeah I hope they do at some point re work the dispatcher as I find that's what holds the game down sometimes

 

Yet another thing that they've said they want to look into. Unfortunately it would mean a complete redo of all medals and so on according to what I've seen from other comments on here

 

I believe they fixed that with Southeastern as it has a different signalling system to previous routes (level crossings). Hopefully it's been fixed therefore. In the UK, never close doors on a red.

 

The thing about "closing the doors on a red" is that it's 100% up to the player to obey the driving rules. The game doesn't close the doors for you, or force you to close them!

 

Looks like the xenophobia and self-importance displayed by certain someone in the Japan high speed line thread wasn't an exception and the same person also likes to foam at the mouth at devs for not jumping in to fix things for them, and then chest-beat about their supposed professional credentials to people responding to their thread.

Expecting realistic simulation - and being frustrated with instances of an absence of such - is entirely valid; being obnoxious to the degree where that's what you become known for in a community is not. The only thing that behaviour does is raise questions about upbringing.

 

Yes it does. It will not complete the loading objective and thus not clear the next block of track for you. You can wait all day and the signal won't clear until you have completed the loading objective by closing the doors.

 

It however will not turn the signal to show a proceed aspect until you close the doors.

If I closed the doors against a red at work, I'd fully expect a meeting with my competence manager!