Most Egregious Scenery Faux Pas

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by inversnecky, Feb 23, 2021.

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  1. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

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    The thing is, if you ever go into an external camera, you can see where the scenery ends. In particuar, the promotional pictures for GARL quite clearly show the edge of the scenery.
     
  2. majorminor

    majorminor Member

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    I know where you are coming from.

    The point I am trying to make is yes, finescale modelling takes skills, and making stuff for TS equally takes skills.

    But most TSers seem happy to just buy stuff - I guess I am not - I wanna make my own, or if I wanna spend money, I wanna give it to folks who have tried just a bit harder than the stuff I am seeing out there right now.

    I want buildings that show the same dedication as the locos we drive do!

    And yes, I DID make modelling a business! I created a line of etched brass coach kits back in the 80s - and it was bloody hard work, and bloody satisfying.

    I did it all (in pre CAD days) with a rotring pen - since then I have mastered photoshop, and I will do the same with blender.

    I guess it is a question of what you want from TS. If you wanna drive trains, then that is ultra cool. For me, I wanna build a virtual railway as accurately as poss - my eyes are no longer up to modelling to a tenth of a thou!

    I've put out three kinds of freeware track - look out for buildings in due course (might take a while though!) ;)

    And dead right, it will take me YEARS to do all the stations i want to the level I want - I'll probably die before I finish - but I will have fun.
     
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  3. inversnecky

    inversnecky Well-Known Member

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    Exactly, and although 2D photos, many of the routes have made a valiant effort to include the buildings around Waverley: The bridges have generally been rendered splendidly, Balmoral hotel, council HQ, New College. Looking up from the cab, it all looks fine.

    I noted there is no castle on some routes, but you can’t see it from down below as you pass, and as I mentioned earlier, how many would sacrifice game performance/ frame rates to include copious and detailed scenery that you wouldn’t even see from the train?

    Think of London: do we really expect a TS replica of the whole city? Obviously, of course not, there will be a limit to what is visible from the tracks, so the cab view is what counts. It’s not quite the same as a model railway, where you can examine every nook and cranny.
     
  4. inversnecky

    inversnecky Well-Known Member

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    That applies to every route, though: just featureless terrain.
     
  5. majorminor

    majorminor Member

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    It isn't. Far from it.

    But for those who want it to be, it COULD be...

    Here's a question for all you "Cab view" fans - can you see the nameplate on the side of the loco when you are driving?

    No you can't. So why do you pay developers to provide them?

    Go on, admit it - you like realism. It's just one small step to lineside reality ;)
     
  6. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

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    You can see them. On other locos. ;)
     
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  7. inversnecky

    inversnecky Well-Known Member

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    I take my hat off to you, wish I had those skills!

    I feel we both want the same: it’s just the harsh realities of costs involved that are the issue: absorbable and sustainable for a hobbyist, not for a business.

    I would love to build a route one day, but I’ve only been using TS a couple of months, and haven’t even created my own scenario yet.

    Hopefully I’ll learn the skills, but as to when I’d have the time, is another matter.

    I’ve posted before about the absence of any TS route within a hundred miles of me, and wonder what would be involved in making the Aberdeen to Inverness route. And I think of the detail of the stations, and trying to make the intermittent countryside resemble reality. It would likely be hundreds of hours of work. As a labour of love, I’d do it if I could, but it might end up a practical choice between finishing a hundred miles route with good/acceptable detail, versus managing to do only ten miles of the route at the highest standard possible.

    Choices have to be made, priorities assessed: follow the relevant real life cab ride, and think does that tree/wall/building have to be there? How accurate does it have to be? Then multiply the effort involve in that by a thousand!

    Anyway, enough waffling from me!
     
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  8. majorminor

    majorminor Member

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    Here's a thing.
    I'm retired now, but I used to make my living coaching Sales Managers in the Automotive Business in how to run their sales teams.

    They used to ask me "So why does Fred do XYZ?"

    And I would say, "It's like a dog licking his privates -he does it because he can..."

    And I think TSers are the same. Why do we all want to run a "layout" that runs to hundreds of miles?

    Because we can........

    Do you think, if there was some wierd limit of say, 10 miles on a route, that it would stop us driving trains? I don't think so. I'd be more than happy to drive a train for 10 miles.

    Yes, there are those among us who will spend HOURS driving bloody miles and miles - but do many of us do that?

    I understand the "my route is vast" thing, but that is NOT a reason to cut down on detail on our routes.

    If you like driving from London to Penzance and back every night ,on a toytown "peripherally blurred" route, that's cool.

    For me, I'd rather go from Paddington to Maidenhead on something a bit more detailed.;)

    But that's just me...
     
  9. inversnecky

    inversnecky Well-Known Member

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    There’s options for all, and there are some detailed branch routes.

    There’s a vintage Paignton one you might like:

    https://www.goldengoldsmithscenarios.co.uk/paignton-dartmouth-steam-railway

    But unless they are free, too many users will be loath to buy a route they can do in 15 minutes and feel they haven’t got their £6.99 worth!
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2021
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  10. majorminor

    majorminor Member

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    Drivers, not modelers.
    Que sera, sera ;)
     
  11. martschuffing

    martschuffing Well-Known Member

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    The critique levelled at JT's older routes are justified imo up until the midland mainline routes they relied heavily on Kujunks 2007 assets, but now they have had a sea change, one can only hope that that continues as their MML routes are one of my favourites to drive in the sim. But I very rarely drive any of their older routes.
     
  12. inversnecky

    inversnecky Well-Known Member

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    There’s so few Scottish routes, that generally there’s no other options if you want a particular route.

    JT are releasing Perth to Inverness this year, so really looking forward to this!
     
  13. SJA

    SJA Active Member

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  14. TimeSlicedDanny

    TimeSlicedDanny Active Member

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    There always was a custom asset for Chesterfield's parish church with it's twisted spire. For some reason it got removed from the map in the last version released.

    This hotfix puts it back.
     
  15. JJTimothy

    JJTimothy Well-Known Member

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    WCML(North)-Durham.jpg Not sure how I missed it before but I spotted Durham Cathedral again when I was setting up my entry for the screengrab competition. This is Glasgow in WCML North.

    I thought this route must predate Weardale and Teesdale by at least a couple of years therefore the model would have to be the one used in ECML North so I looked this up and yes- it's about four years older than W&T... In fact, according to Steam, it's a older than ECML North too! So the model of Durham Cathedral in Durham in ECML North is actually an asset borrowed from another route.

    Perhaps I should lie down for a while.
     
  16. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

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    No, the date given on Steam is when it was released as a seperate route, because it (along with Bath-Templecombe, GWML and a few other routes) were no longer included in TS1. ECML Newcastle - York has been in the game since it was called Rail Simulator.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2021
  17. mattdsoares

    mattdsoares Well-Known Member

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    It shouldn't be really. JT's recent routes, especially the Midland Mainlines are extremely high quality, but they had a well earned reputation for cut and paste low fidelity scenery on their routes prior. High quality scenery from JT is a rather new development.
     
  18. JJTimothy

    JJTimothy Well-Known Member

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    Aah. Leaving only the question, "what the hell is Durham Cathedral doing in Glasgow?"
     
  19. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

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    "Generic tall vaguely medievel building"
     
  20. inversnecky

    inversnecky Well-Known Member

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    Think that’s about the size of it!
     
  21. Cyclone

    Cyclone Well-Known Member

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    As a generic note, I noticed the houses all look the same in some of the neighbourhoods in these pictures. So I think the idea is using a stock church to represent a church somewhere in the world. Seems lazy, but - well - see next...

    I like how the two DTG routes actually make an attempt to produce the columns on the building to the left of the real picture, and JT is just, "Nah, just fill the space".

    BTW, Just Trains only sells the SECML. I do not believe they made it.
     
  22. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

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    Alright, I know it's been a while but I've recently noticed churches in Sunderland that I think are similar to the generic Kuju church. Images from Google Street View.
    St Ignatius' Church, Suffolk Street, Hendon
    upload_2021-4-20_21-42-16.png

    Riverlife Church, North Bridge Street, Monkwearmouth
    upload_2021-4-20_21-44-10.png

    Now, stretch and quish these slightly in various ways, and a touch of recolouring and I think you'll be almost there - of course, it could also be a church similar to one where the devs originally built Rail Simulator (I have no idea where that would be).
     
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  23. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Yes I agree that they have very similar characteristics to the Kuju one. Unless it is the angles the Kuju spire looks to be the same height as the tower though which is quite out of proportion, the churches in your photos seem to have proportionately shorter spires. The nave is too short and I don't know what is going on with those clerestory windows. Anyway I know it isn't church simulator but churches are probably the most dominant landmarks on many landscapes especially away from the urban areas.

    I just don't think it looks like a generic British church or at least should be an example with a few others, as churches are very distinctive land marks and rarely look similar, even architects like Street, Pugin and Ninian Comper didn't design identikit buildings although there were signatures in their designs you would recognise from one of their churches to another.

    St. Ignatius, Hendon has quite an interesting looking organ, judging by the specification.
     
  24. inversnecky

    inversnecky Well-Known Member

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    There's actually a church I saw a month or so ago in a cab ride video that's the spitting image of the Kuju church - must try to locate it when I have the time.
     
  25. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I would be interested to see it and might be made to eat my words!
     
  26. inversnecky

    inversnecky Well-Known Member

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    Will make it my mission to look it out. Thankfully it was within the first few minutes!
     
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  27. Cyclone

    Cyclone Well-Known Member

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    I wonder, is it an early route in the game?
     
  28. JJTimothy

    JJTimothy Well-Known Member

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    Just bought Great Western Main Line and guess what I spotted...
    OxfordCathedral.jpg

    To be fair they probably wanted to give Oxford a bit of class- I'm not sure if there's much in the way of distinguished and/or historic buildings there IRL. (Sarcasm)
     
  29. andy.malcolm

    andy.malcolm Active Member

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    That route was released 100 years ago.
     
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  30. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Not exactly the dreaming spires! Although, I think the bit around the station is a little grotty in real life. They have made it look more like 1970's Birmingham than one of the UK's most beautiful cities!
     
  31. fabdiva

    fabdiva Well-Known Member

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    Wasn't Great Western the first Rail Simulator Route made back when it was Kuju/EA? I mean it's about 15 years old at this point and was a major step up from MSTS which it was replacing but is not going to look anything like a modern route.
     
  32. JJTimothy

    JJTimothy Well-Known Member

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    Haven't looked it up it seems likely that ECML (North) was the first British route (real route anyway- Hedborough North was in the first Railworks bundle/s I believe). The other possibility is that someone modelled Durham Cathedral for no particular reason but it was handy when the ECML was made.

    Comparing it with other routes I can well believe that ECML(N) was a first effort although the Cathedral itself looks pretty good.
     
  33. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I am sure they still could have made an iconic city like Oxford look a little more true to life rather than a generic UK city where the planning decisions were decided by councillors on LSD in the swinging sixties!

    They had the ability to model Durham Cathedral and Castle I am sure a couple of Oxford quadrangles and college chapels wouldn't have been beyond them.

    But yes, there probably is not point moaning about it now, but I think this thread is supposed to be a little tongue in cheek.
     
  34. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    The original Rail Simulator came with four routes:

    Bath to Templecombe
    Hagen to Seigen
    Newcastle to York
    Paddington to Oxford

    It might have been that Oxford station doesn't have such commanding views so they didn't bother. Durham station has a good vista and the Cathedral and Castle are unmistakable landmarks.
     
  35. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

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    GWML's code in the RailWorks Content folder is 00000001-0000-0000-0000-000000000000 which would imply to me it was the first one, unless there's one that's all 0s. Tbh, it'll have been built up simultaneously with the others.
     
  36. martschuffing

    martschuffing Well-Known Member

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    To be fair we have been spoiled by a lot of top-notch 3rd party dev routes and like someone has said it's old.... really old, be good if they were revisited and brought up to today's standards.
     
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  37. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I have changed the track on GWML and ECML for WCML South track which improves the look. I am slowly retexturing the mass of great textures on these routes too so it will look a lot better hopefully.

    I might even replace some of the buildings with those from later routes.
     
  38. steve.cunningham1980

    steve.cunningham1980 Member

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    There's not really much in the way of historic buildings in the station vicinity at Oxford. It's mostly modern offices and colleges and blocks of flats, interspersed with some Victorian onward terraces. Not sure why they chose to include the cathedral; in reality it's much further north of the station and a lot smaller (I believe it is actually the smallest, or at least one of the smallest, in England).
     
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  39. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    It was the smallest in England of the older cathedrals. I believe it is bigger than Derby and Birmingham which were created more recently when new diocese's were formed. It is actually a college chapel which is also the seat of a bishop, I always feel that St. Mary's (the university church) would have made a more suitable cathedral. I think the smallest cathedral in the UK is the Cathedral of the Isles which is the size of a average parish church, I have been in St Woolos Cathedral Newport which is very small too. Anyway, I digress.
     
  40. JJTimothy

    JJTimothy Well-Known Member

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    "Grey towers of Durham
    Get around a bit don't you?"
    - Sir Walter Scott
     
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  41. Cyclone

    Cyclone Well-Known Member

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    Inaccurate. It was roughly 111 years ago.
     
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