well for me it's just i want a bit of variety of locos in the game i'm still thankful that rivet are doing a route in cornwall it's just i hope is we don't get a repeat of locos that's all but i guess we will find out soon enough
I would too likely purchase it if it is set in a more modern era, I think there is more chance of them getting the stock accurate. I like the railways of this area and there is still mechanical signalling on much of the Cornish mainline. It has shocked me a little that it appears to be set in my favourite era although I half expected DTG to announce the Riviera line using the GWE blue pack. I agree that DTG/Rivit et al are not going to please everyone and most of us have a favourite era and part of the world to drive virtual trains. I suppose they can just try and be as balanced as possible or as balanced as their research into what sells best allows them to be.
It is not impossible to please, I am pleased, I can drive trains from the comfort of my house, and what kid of railfan wouldn't be pleased? However, DTG have said many times that they want to hear what the players want for the future of the game, and so I must give my piece of constructive criticism, which is limited to my opinion, so players who like modern trains WILL ask for modern trains.
My 1988 working timetable shows quite a few Sprinter diagrams in the area, most on longer distance services, the nearest allocation was Cardiff Canton, I don't think Laira got any until around 1992. So a late 80's iteration could see a class 150, although they weren't used on the branch lines then. If it includes the Western, the code appears to suggest a diesel hydraulic then a HST wouldn't really be that realistic as there was barely a cross over between the demise of one and the introduction of the other.
I actually wouldn't mind it being set in the late 80s. Especially if we got a HST in intercity swallow livery and the 150s being presentes as being brand new. I'd still play it if it was set before then, I just wouldn't be as enthusiastic. We all have our own tastes.
That's fair, I didn't even think about the diesel hydraulic thing. I don't know when the HSTs entered service around the area, so all I can do is wish that the route is set as late as possible, which, like you say, is somewhere within the late 80s.
Class 50s ex London Midland Region took a lot of Hydraulic work in the 70s with the 52s finishing on secondary duties while HSTs were getting delivered. 52s finished up at Laira I think. Would prefer the 1988-1990, the 155 Sprinter was common (CF) and I am not so sure if the 150/2s from Cardiff made it West of Bristol much around that time as they did a bit on the Valleys I think.
Regardless of era, I'm extremely sceptical that Rivet can make this route look good, given how naturally scenic it is. This photo, from the St. Ives branch shows what they have to put up with: Given how their past routes for TSW have turned out, I'm expecting nothing more than an ugly looking beach, with tiled looking water as the sea, with a few houses and 2D trees scattered sporadically across the landscape. I really don't have much hope for this route looking good given that it is Rivet who is building it.
I think the class 150/2's did make it quite far away from South Wales on occasion but I am not sure they would have made it past Exeter although not impossible, they were intended to replace the class 116's. BR had problems with the plug doors on the class 155's so they were not proving reliable, if I recall brand new class 156's which were going to Scotland ended up going south to replace the class 155's which caused much annoyance north of the border, by the time they got their class 156's they were well run in! I would be very happy with the late 1980's with a class 50 and maybe a Sprinter. You would need a HST. The class 101 would be suitable for this era as Laira had several as well as class 108's and it would have been first generation DMUs working the branch lines.
Certainly by 1989, when I started in the Control, Class 155's (eek, don't mention the doors) were working two or three day cyclic diagrams from Canton that included running to and from Penzance on longer distance trains. These were then superceded by the 158's but outside the strict time period for this route, which included some classic "Reggie Rail" through workings - Penzance to Manchester, Penzance to Portsmouth as well as too/from South Wales.
I can already picture it and I don't like what I see in my head, lol. But I still wish them the best, maybe they can surprise us. That... is a really good question. After Cane Creek, all the other TSW routes will look like absolute jokes.
Remember the door issue, resulted in Liverpool and Manchester getting daily Loco Hauled trains to Cardiff until early 1991 by which time 158s were coming off the production line and 155s were getting converted to 153s. Class 50 is something I am hoping for with this but we will see.
Slightly off topic, but regarding the 155s fleet management was a real challenge as Reggie Rail specified availability of 32 diagrams for the 35 sets allocated. Almost impossible to achieve on a day to day basis, once you got a long term stopper, 155304 never turned a wheel again after hitting a tree near Bath and was the first to be sent to Kilmarnock (on a low loader) for 153 conversion. So substitution was almost inevitable - a 108 on the 0650 Gloucester to Penzance et seq or, my personal favourite, Class 122 bubble car on the 1735 Bristol TM to Exeter. Back on the subject of the route and Rivet, this is an opportunity for them to redeem themselves and I hope DTG will be particularly stringent regarding QA and oversight. If anything, stuffing up such an iconic piece of the UK railway has the potential to be even more damaging to TSW than their Microprose scenery on Arosa.
If there's gonna be a first generation DMU (which judging by the period there probably will be) then I'm 80% sure they'll just re use the 101. I'll be happy to be proven wrong though.
I love hearing first hand experience of those who worked on the railways. It is the sort of thing which I think developers could use more of, especially when recreating more period routes. Then we might not have had the incorrect liveried and type of DMU on the GWE pack. I bet that bubble car was packed! That has given me an idea for a scenario for the TS1 Bristol to Exeter route.
I don't know, there was quite a backlash when the class 101 appeared in that GWE pack. It would be worse on a period route supposedly set in that period so I am not sure they will do it again. I suppose it was more excusable on a route pack for a route which was set in the wrong period anyway. Rivit seem to excel when it comes to making new trains. What will be annoying is if we get a 1970's Western showing its headcode and then a class 47 from NTP with the headcode panel plated over as the two would have been seen together. Of course this is all speculation.
That would mean RIvet getting the 101 from DTG etc etc More likely they'll create something themselves
Ummm some people (definetly not me....) thought that NTP is the status quo when i played it for the first time.... But I also hope that there wont be the same three existing BR Blue locos on this route, i'd like to see a new DMU of some sort. Also the time period between the 50s and 90s seems really vague, so either the Steam era just ended or there are HSTs...
We have modern trains here! Honest!! I completely agree about the time period being needlessly vague. 50s to 90s is a very wide time period. It would be an interesting twist if this turned out to be the first steam route, although that's unlikely.
The route does have the diesel hydraulic tag, so has to reasonably be between 1960 and 1976. This does of course mean no HSTs, as they didn't reach Cornwall in service until 1979.
You would think they would split the time periods into maybe 1950's to 1960's and 1970's to 1980's or 90's as they were contrasting time periods for railways, not just in the UK I am sure. I wouldn't rely on that being a barrier to the incorrect train being provided! Although this is Rivit not DTG so they might have more of a desire for accuracy.
That is an interesting point. But in that case then that would mean that Rivet will be building all the trains and stock from scratch. So, if it is correct to assume that it is set in the 1970's then would Rivit build a new Western or would they use the DTG one? Then again a diesel hydraulic could mean a class 41 or 42 or even a class 22 so it might be complete new set of trains. We will have to wait to see of course but it is intriguing.
I don't think the Control was very popular with the passengers on that one, but we tended to apply the mantra of any train is better than a cancellation. Again off topic, but it was also not uncommon to "nick" the Valley Lines Class 116 non toilet sets generally only used in the peak and use them vice a 155 from Cardiff to Hereford, changing over with a Down train (we used to get that desperate to cover the service),
Where were the class 155's used then? I remember them on the Cardiff to Birmingham service coming through Stourbridge before it was re-routed up the Lickey Incline. I still have the Railscene cabride of one such journey! The 1988 WTT shows services from Cardiff to Liverpool and Manchester and to Portsmouth and to Penzance were all down as Sprinters so I assume class 155. They must have been working them very hard!
As I have said else were. If they go too early, then they have a lot more modelling to do of now closed and demolished stations- Chacewater and Gwinear for example that had the branch lines to Helston and Newquay- so I would guess that that they would aim post Beeching for ease? Ultimately rather excited to see what they do. The St Ives branch line is going to be tough with so much water, the Falmouth one would have been easier- but more viaducts... Lets all see what happens in 8-12 months time D
I cry with you. Not ANY Dutch route, not modern, not old, not form the north, south, east or west, steam or diesel or electric, passenger or freight, nothing absolutely nothing but a text on the BR363. You are spoiled ...
I hope Rivet put the emphasis on scenery this time. I don't care if they reuse existing vehicles. Not terribly bothered if the cabs are old. Simpler to use. What I do care about is the scenery, it's fundamental to creating the illusion. Without the illusion it just becomes another button pushing game.
So a 30-40km route that last about an hour, doesn't go all the way to Plymouth, is BR blue and is dangerously close to re-using current DTG stock (101 and maybe Class 47?). Made by the studio who lacked on the scenery front twice? This route is already looking like another write-off before we've even left the station.
I wouldn't go as far as writing it off just yet. Considering the route is still in planning, hopefully Rivet will see some of our feedback regarding the locos and era, but I doubt they'd drastically change any plans at this point. DTG always emphasize providing a unique experience with every new route, but yet they seem so obsessed with reusing stock from previous routes. I don't have anything against reusing stock if appropriate, but we do already have several routes where diesel locos and/or first-gen DMUs have been the focus. WSR, TVL, and NTP all provide experiences using older diesel stock. Then we got two Southeastern English routes in a row with electrostars. What I'm saying is where is the diversity of British routes? With German content, I understand that much of the locos are shared since that's actually how it is in real life, but in the UK there is literally a different type of train for every region. While Rivet are not DTG, they clearly are in strong communication with each other. In my opinion this upcoming Cornish route would have been better set in the modern era or at least post-2000. That way a new category of trains could have been introduced, Sprinters, and the HST could be appropriately reused for mainline services.
Sprinters and HSTs are late 80s onwards that's 30 odd years. I am sure 800s will appear one day on something. As will Voyagers and the like. Diesel locos and first gen DMUs ran on Britain's railways for over 40 years in some places. That's a massive amount of time. The cries for modern modern and more modern on this forum don't possibly reflect in what sells? I have said this before elsewhere BR era rolling stock is huge in the model railways world. Heljan tooled a whole range in O gauge at huge outlay and try getting any of it now as it mostly flew off shelves. Railtours featuring BR traction often sell out. The one thing with modern rolling stock is you can go out there now and ride on it.... I appreciate that everyone has a different interest railway wise but it baffles me when people ask why old stuff? Nostalgia always has an added selling point. Old diesels are loud, temperamental, carried interesting names, looked unique, were challenging to drive and quite simply have huge cult followings. I would expect one day to see a class 55 deltic in the TSW2 stable. When they went News at 10 covered it. Class 332s have been scrapped with barely an eyelid raised. That's the difference.
I think it more likely that, like so many vintage UK routes, it's because they have a BR brand license, and don't risk a repeat of the Virgin Trains mess. That and the fact that, according to DTG's market surveys, their British customer base really, really like vintage rail (in contrast to the Germans, who apparently will have none of it). But beyond that: Rivet are first and foremost locomotive modelers. It's what they do, and what they're pretty good at. It's other aspects of route design where they stumble.
Indeed as we were saying earlier, some people forget how old these trains are now - even though I still regard them as modern. So far as Cornwall is concerned you are still going to pretty much see the same trains with the route set in 2015, as you would in 1990. And I will be quite happy never to see a Class 800/801/802 in the game, ever. To also follow on from the comments above, older diesels were more of a challenge in terms of the power available. They often had to be thrashed to keep time and climb hills. With an 800 even on diesel power, you're not going to get much of a driving challenge. With HST's adhesion played a factor and this could be interesting as there were several locations in West Cornwall that became difficult in leaf-fall season - getting out of Truro and St Erth on the Down, to list just two.
I take issue with that. I grew up with 332s running into Paddington so personally I was quite sad to see them go. The difference between them and Deltics (apart from locos inherently having more character than multiple units) is that they were literally just scrapped. Not as many people will be nostalgic for them now because we haven't reached that age yet. Give it a few decades and I'm sure there will come a time people are nostalgic for them, just like how people are currently nostalgic for first generation multiple units.
Worst case scenario for me would be the route being set in 1960-1970s with just a reuse of the 47, 52, and 101 with only one new train. Best case scenario for me is late 1980s era so we have a chance at getting a sprinter and reuse of the HST in a different livery. Loco hauled services using the 47 and 52 could still be included even if set in late 1980s. Although, Rivet don't seem to like making a diverse timetable based on their previous releases.
Class 55 Went after 20 years service, similar to 332s? I am not knocking anyone for being interested in more modern trains its more the theme that old is not wanted despite there being huge reasons to produce it. I will quite happily pick up a more modern route in a sale but BR stuff is generally day 1 unless I feel its not worth it, going more back on topic I did refund IOW so hope that Rivet can pull something better out of the bag with the Cornwall effort.
Probably why they chose West Cornwall over an East Cornwall route from (say) Plymouth to Liskeard with the Gunnislake and Looe branches. They would have needed to cater for more freight traffic including the flow to Moorswater anything in and out of Tavistock Yard not to mention model the relatively complex depot at Laira.
No, I mean that it's been multiple decades since they've run in service, whereas the 332s were only withdrawn last year. People aren't feeling nostalgic for them in the same way because not as much time has passed and the people who grew up with them haven't gotten to the age where they'd begin to miss them like others miss the Deltics. That's how I see it at least.
I agree. I see people wondering why Rivet are opting for shorter scenic routes rather than busy mainline ones and the reason is quite obvious. Rivet do not feel comfortable yet developing a complex route and timetable where different services have to interact with each other and so on. I mean imagine if Rivet developed SEHS. I'm honestly surprised they even opted to have the route go out to Truro. They could've easily just did Penzance to St. Ives and avoid the mainline altogether. Overall, I'm optimistic about the timetable.
As it stands I'll probably get it day one anyway. At the end of the day it's still a route I'm familiar with and interested in, but it won't be a day 1 purchase if it doesn't offer anything that Tees Valley and NTP already provide.
Oh yeah, I've still got a positive vibe for it and all joking about F15 Strike Eagle graphics aside, it's an area of the country that interests me and most emphatically not a London or south commuter route. If it did really suck, there's always the two hour refund window. Heck I'm probably still going to buy Arosa, once it pops up on sale.
I would be happy with late 80's. You could have the 101 for the branch line, Sprinter for the mainline provincial services, the class 47 would obviously be suitable for cross country services and the sleeper services plus Parcels which were still a major source of rail traffic in the era. The HST would need to be probably a new model or heavily reworked to represent them as they were built.
If they did bring a HST over do you think they could get away with the MTU engine sounds? I doubt they'd go to the trouble of getting the sounds from a Valenta engine.
They probably wouldn’t worry about the sounds at all. The truth is that the players that would truly not buy the route because of incorrect HST sounds are so small that any loss of sales would be worth it compared to the cost of investing in obtaining and implementing realistic Valenta sounds.
You're probably right. It'd be a genuine immersion breaker for me but I doubt the average buyer will care that much.
I would certainly care, the two sound very different and if they did release an Intercity HST with MTU sounds it would be enough to stop me purchasing it. There is something about the Valenta scream which the MTU can't match.
It looks like the route will be Pre HST by the look of things, so this could be academic. However on two occasions (Class 31 and Class 465) DTG have licensed sounds from a commercial developer. This developer does has Valenta sounds, so it is not totally impossible that it will come with the correct sounds
