Stop Putting Objectives So Close To Signals

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by LucasLCC, Apr 9, 2021.

  1. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    Clinchfield is a lovely route and I've been really enjoying it, however it was spoilt today by an objective that was so close to the signal that it resulted in a SPAD.

    The service in particular is the SD40 CRR Extra 3001 North - Northbound Coal, and it expects you to stop the 41 wagon consist 2 yards from the signal.

    I stopped 10 yards away, thinking it would be sufficient, however the game didn't like that. Rolling forward on a 1.5% gradient and stopping so close to a signal is no easy feat, and it certainly wouldn't be done in reality.

    It's definitely put a bit of a downer on an otherwise great route.
     
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  2. davebadger#4587

    davebadger#4587 Member

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    Think it's all the northbound services. I did one in the f7 and had the same. Great fun stopping that close in the dark!!!
     
  3. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Continual problem across TSW: not only are objectives too close to signals/buffers, but many (not all, just many) won't trigger unless you are on or past the marker.

    They need to be re-programmed to register "within X yards/meters"
     
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  4. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, if the markers had more tolerance then it wouldn't be so bad as I could stop 20-30 yards short and be done with it. That's what the driver would do in reality, no point getting too close and risking a SPAD.
     
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  5. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, this is pretty annoying. Place them further back or have them trigger further away and the problem is solved.

    I always tought the ideal solution would be if they worked the same way passenger stop segments work. There is a piece of track marked as a platform, and if the train stop on it, it counts. Why do you need to be exactly on the marker for it to trigger?
     
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  6. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    In RL, the only rule is that you have to stop where you can see the signal, and the back of your train has to be clear of any points or crossovers. Nobody expects the engineer wrangling a hundred loaded coal hoppers to bullseye a stop point like he's playing darts!
     
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  7. L89

    L89 Well-Known Member

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    Can't stop before it if the back hasn't cleared a signal/points that may be used for the next instruction or AI train. Normally you can stop after it (some part of the train on it) if there's no immediate signal I thought...just not before.
     
  8. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    I agree. There should be greater tolerance. There are a couple of these on SPG you have to inch towards, as I recall. It doesn't make sense that you can overshoot the objective by quite a lot without penalty, but a yard or two short and you won't get that weird sound for "objective reached".
     
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  9. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    Well it could check if your train is completely on the siding segment or not.
     
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  10. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    I agree that there should be more tolerance. On CRR, I only did the Florida Perishable at this point as far as mainline runs go and stopping 2 yards in front of the red board was neither fun nor realistic.
     
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  11. Heerenrailfan92

    Heerenrailfan92 Active Member

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    had the same problem, you literally have to stop 2 yards from the signal, I'm pretty sure they fix this in the next update
     
  12. breblimator

    breblimator Guest

    I support. This is a train-sim, not a thriller! :)
     
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  13. davidh0501

    davidh0501 Well-Known Member

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    I agree with the honourable members motion.

    Write it down Adam!
     
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  14. DTG Matt

    DTG Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

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    Hmm I'll check it - I thought i'd opened up the tolerance on all the stop's to make them more generous but clearly I missed one. Some times i have to put the stop point closer to the signals than i'd like because of other things like the points behind etc but ... sounds like this one is a bit too close. I'll put it on a list to take a look :)
     
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  15. Oli R C

    Oli R C Member

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    Yeah, I think I may have just run the same service. Midday-ish northbound run with coal. Miniscule window in which to stop, although happy to say I nailed it first time, but not without an anxious few seconds. :D:cool: An overrun would certainly have spoiled an otherwise lovely trip.
     
  16. Tanglebones

    Tanglebones Well-Known Member

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    Hi Matt - it isn't just Clinchfield and it isn't just player trains:

    https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/ntp-scenario-designer-spads.36660/
     
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  17. Blacknred81

    Blacknred81 Well-Known Member

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    What also doesn't help is that you cant contact the signaler on the red stop board to allow you to run it either. 3-4 yards isn't enough leeway for a stop unless you crawl to the stop point.
    687bbcf7-05c6-450a-834f-4de9cb199d59.jpg
     
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  18. SHINO BAZ

    SHINO BAZ Well-Known Member

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    It also don't help if your brakes don't response fast enough.The brakes work but the responses very abit depending on how you use them.plus stopping on down grades can be tricky.With such small margins of error to work with.
     
  19. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    The 101 (another enjoyable DLC), also has this issue once again. There's a number of station calls where you're expected to stop right on the signal. Luckily unlike freight trains you can stop short without any major consequences, but please DTG stop doing this.
     
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  20. LastTrainToClarksville

    LastTrainToClarksville Well-Known Member

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    It's interesting that only one of this thread's complainers mentions contacting the dispatcher, and that one claims that, "3-4 yards isn't enough leeway for a stop unless you crawl to the stop point". Are all of you driving without the signal state HUD feature? I always have that on and it warns me about red signals long well before I reach them, giving me plenty of time to approach with caution. Most, if not all, red signals can also be spotted in advance via a quick glance at the 2D map, again providing ample time to query the dispatcher who, in my experience with Clinchfield, has several times informed me that the signal (which immediately turned yellow) could be passed at safe speed.
    The combination of other rail traffic, frequent grade changes, and stop points close to red signals is what makes this route the challenge that it is. Driving cautiously is a requirement that may not result in medals or high point scores, but successfully dealing with the difficulties satisfies me thoroughly. So, slow down and enjoy the diesel exhaust. "Crawling to the stop point" is sometimes the point!
     
  21. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    I'm not convinced you understand the situation. This is in reference to the stop marker being 2m in front of a red signal. It has nothing to do with knowing about the signal on advance, but instead is through poor objective marker positioning.

    You would not be expected to do this in reality, I can assure you of that.
     
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  22. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    The problem with that latter is that it doesn't reflect reality; it's a game-induced gamey difficulty. NO railroad says "You have to stop within 5 yards of the signal, and if you don't we'll make you release brakes and crawl forward to it." Not even Deutsche Bahn.
     
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  23. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    That would actually be against regulations in Germany. You‘d need an order for a shunting move to move your train again once you‘ve stopped before a red signal :D

    That‘s why I love the big stopping zone for passenger trains. I usually stop German passenger trains at the corressponding track-side signs if present no matter what the game tells me to do.
     
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  24. LastTrainToClarksville

    LastTrainToClarksville Well-Known Member

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    By "in front of", do you mean beyond? In other words, is it necessary to pass the red signal to reach the stop marker?
     
  25. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    No, it's just on your side of the signal. But stopping a heavy freight train within a 2m window is absurd. The only way to do it is to stop short, release brakes, wait for the brakes to come off all the way back, and crawl forward. A PITA, and just dumb.
     
  26. Tonto62

    Tonto62 Well-Known Member

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    Sometimes, even stopping exactly where it wants you to isn't enough. I was shunting a long train of coaches in the Diesel Legends dlc last night, stopped on the marker but it would not accept I'd done it and move on to the next move. I've had it happen with an express train arriving at Paddington too and had to release brakes and go to and fro until the game woke up and let me open doors. Trans Pennine seems to have this problem with markers right next to signals too. Every station stop with a signal at the end of the platform has you stopping a couple of yards from a red signal which only clears to green when you close the doors! Why does the door button operate the signals? Very unrealistic.
     
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  27. KoeleKoen

    KoeleKoen Well-Known Member

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    In Belgium you can't stop closer than 8 meter with passenger trains, with freight I believe it's more. They don't care if you block anything, just don't get closer than 8.
     
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  28. Mattty May

    Mattty May Guest

    It is ridiculous how close the game wants you to get to a signal to complete an objective. Very little room for error. I doubt many real life drivers would get so close in real life.
     
  29. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Well, as for that, it has to do with the abstracted imaginary guards. In real life, the train guard would close the doors, signal the driver with two buzzes, and the platform guard would notify the signalman with a whistle or baton to change the light.
     
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  30. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    I did a scenario planner run on SPG, where the route forces you through a siding and as that was the only path available, I decided to put a stop in at that siding for the next run. The stop point is superimposed onto the signal on the map and is only triggered after you pass the signal. Luckily it was on green for the run I had done. So file that under “stop too close to the signal” and add a copy to “who on earth set up these scenario planner paths?” I can’t remember the name of the siding unfortunately.

    The stopping points at Paddington in the Legends pack are too close to the buffers on some platforms (no consistent distance like in the main timetable), which exceeds the usual issue of stop points being too close. All of this points to me that the problem is getting worse, as little attention is being given to where these stops are put in the first place.
     
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  31. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    The problem would be solved entirely if DTG simply reprogrammed stop markers to register if you stop within X yards/meters, in either direction. There would be no need for Adam's crew to go in and reposition the darn things one by one.
     
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  32. Tanglebones

    Tanglebones Well-Known Member

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    My personal theory is that it's one person on the team doing it, more than likely not aware of the consequences. Why one person? Because it isn't consistent. The majority of times the stop point and the signals are placed far enough apart. As I said, just my theory, but it would be nice if DTG had a 'common look and feel' ruleset they could apply to every route, whether developed in house or by a third party, and someone verifying details like this before release. Or. if they do have that, I respectfully suggest it needs updating...
     
  33. J.T.

    J.T. Active Member

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    I'd like to mention that on the Sand Patch Grade route the objective marker in Rockwood can be actually a few meters behind the stop signal :) You can deal with this by asking the dispatcher for permission to pass the signal, however ... it's a bit silly and probably not very realistic.
     
  34. doublefine7

    doublefine7 Well-Known Member

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    My personal opinion is that a punctual stopping marker is unnecessary for mainline freight runs and passenger runs. It would be cool if DTG could replace these stopping markers with showing a zone where the train has to stop in. Obviously, that is already built in the game with Ctrl + 7, but I would love to have these zones as stopping markers and not a punctual stopping marker.

    For shunting, punctual markers are more useful but even then it is kind of ridiculous to stop at that exact point within millimetres.
     
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  35. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    Thankfully that isn't the case. The stop marker is about two meters before the signal (so the correct side), but it's just a case where it's simply too close to the signal. The professional driving policy at work states you should stop 20 meters from the signal, so it's a huge difference.

    It definitely is becoming more common place, with even the 101 having the issue. For the DTG staff reading this, please can you put a method in place to stop this happening? Whilst it would be nice for all of these cases to be resolved, the most important thing is that this doesn't keep happening.
     
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  36. Blacknred81

    Blacknred81 Well-Known Member

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    One thing I like about Train Simulator 2021 is that the stop locations are based on a specific siding, which usually gives you alot more space to stop a train if you need to.
     
  37. RobSkip

    RobSkip Well-Known Member

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    Nope, dispatching a train on a red signal as a guard is a surefire way to make sure you don't finish your day at work. Train dispatch should not be started on a red signal. (Of course there is a couple of exceptions, but both require the input of at least one more member of staff, be it a MOM or signaller.)
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2021
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  38. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Who then initiates the departure process?
     
  39. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I believe the salient part is "on a red signal". If the signal is at anything else then the departure process can commence
     
  40. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Got that: but somebody changes the signal, or rather orders the signalman to change it. This process is connected in some way to the train being ready, or scheduled, to depart, but who does what to whom?
     
  41. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    From what (little) I know, signals are generally set by time or automatically based on what trains have proceeded it, but it may also be the case that the station dispatcher sends a signal to the signaller who then does their checks and if the track is clear then clears the signal for the line
    But then and only then can the actual dispatch process begin

    I know (for example) that there was a dispatch button on the exit to Gillingham depot where the driver would have to get out of the train and press this button to signal to the signaller to then allow the train to proceed onto the main line. Not sure if this survived the recent resignalling (and removal of the local control box from service in favour of a larger control centre) but I saw it happen loads until a few years back
     
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  42. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    That would be the sort of arrangement I would expect on vintage routes like NTP and TVL (where the coaches are still slam-door, as well).

    WRT modern routes, to what extent are signals now automated in the UK?
     
  43. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    I can't comment on other countries operations, however in the UK it is generally one of the below:

    - Route is set through the station. If there's not a proceed aspect then the driver will let the Signaller know that the train is ready to depart via use of the GSMR. This is common practice at Unmanned stations where there's no dispatcher.

    - Dispatcher will press the TRTS button when the train is ready to start. Once this is done, the Signaller will hopefully set the route. Only once a proceed aspect is given can the train begins the dispatch process.

    - At some stations (few and far between) the guard will press the TRTS button to signal the train is ready. The rest is as per the above.

    Under no normal circumstances will the dispatch process begin against a red signal. Such actions will lead to a meeting with the competence manager, and there will definitely be no tea or biscuits present at such a meeting
     
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