Dtg's Reasoning For The Wrong Dostos

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by Aran, Apr 29, 2021.

  1. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    Incidentally made a suggestion for one today ;)
     
  2. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    Why? It's a 3rd rail EMU, that allows for crossing between multiple coupled train sets and has a somewhat flat front. What's the difference really? It is worth spending the time on it, because it's basically the same from the outside?

    :)
     
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  3. eire007

    eire007 Active Member

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    I would prefer Enthusiasts go elsewhere then. They are the most annoying pedantic people on here that if u quote a number of a train and 1 digit is wrong they act like almighty god coming to crucify you like they are so perfect. They are the ones who make the forums toxic. Not the people like me who just enjoy driving the trains.
     
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  4. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    This is the sort of attitude which keeps Budweiser in business.
     
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  5. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    Because thinking NPCs glithcing out is bad I'm being pedantic now? :)

    I think DTG should know why people are unhappy with a route and not buying it. Otherwise they'll just continue doing this. It's really not that we think DTG is all bad, or the devs aren't driven to do their best. This kind of decision undoubtably comes from higher up, and to many of the enthousiasts, which are instrumental in keeping the game alive, glitches like these being caused by inaccurate stock does really feel like cutting corners.

    I don't think anyone at DTG HQ should be hung and quartered by any means, but they do need to realise that business practices like these will lead less sales and a shrinking playerbase of railway enthousiasts. And most importantly, they need to know why.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2021
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  6. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Less glibly: this is a simulator, or at least is billed as one. Enthusiasts are the people it is for. Simulation implies accuracy. It's not an arcade game, it isn't Mario Train.
     
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  7. mariussoare_84

    mariussoare_84 Well-Known Member

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    Thinking in black and white is bad for you! So is the "if you're not with me, you're against me" approach.
    Don't contribute to normalizing mediocrity!

    They advertise the game as "The evolution of train simulation!" yet the evolutions sits mainly in the description. While the route has the correct DoStos and even a BR 218 in Train Simulator, in TSW it arrived in the shape we all saw.

    It's due to people that ask questions, research and wish more/better that you don't currently still ride a horse to work and why there is no mud and horse poo on the roads when you leave your house.

    You can't be serious in saying that, I hope you were trolling.
     
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  8. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    "AUTHENTICALLY REPLICATED ROUTES AND LOCOS"

    "EXPERIENCE A NEW LEVEL OF REALISM"

    "IMMERSE YOURSELF IN SIMULATION"

    All DTG'S words, no one else's. No one is asking for or expecting them to produce any more than their own marketing people have stated.

    It's designed to appeal to enthusiasts, not just for someone who wants to play Mario Train!

    Edit: Please excuse the all caps quotes. I'm not shouting, it's how it was copied and pasted from the DTG page and I couldn't be bothered to type it all out again.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2021
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  9. volvolover1972

    volvolover1972 Well-Known Member

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    TSW is (supposed to be) a simulator. If you want an arcade game then this isn’t it. With the prices of the DLC, I expect a realistic as possible experience with accurate trains, sounds, physics, and visuals. If all you want to do is drive generic trains then you’re probably wasting your money on TSW when you could just download a generic train mobile game. I don’t have anything against casual players, but they shouldn’t be telling me and other sim enthusiasts to go elsewhere.
     
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  10. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    It's clear ( and probably justified) that DTG wants as wide a range of players as possible. So, there is a spectrum that plays the game and inhabits the forums. At one end, we have those for whom this is a kind of casual arcade game. DTG encourages them and caters to them by including things like trophy hunting, collectibles and train painting etc. Fine, those players are enjoying their version of the game. Then there are those of us in the middle, who want a realistic experience with well modeled scenery, artifacts and trains which behave and sound close to the real thing. I think TSW2 broadly fulfills that segment.Those at the end of the spectrum who expect pinpoint accuracy in all aspects of the game are an important group because, although they are unlikely to ever be satisfied, they serve the valuable purpose of keeping expectations high for the rest of us. We can all enjoy the game at whichever level we choose, without vilifying anybody else.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2021
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  11. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Some of us like to experience something as close to reality as possible. I am not a rivet counter by any means but if DTG can't provide realistic rolling stock to run on a route then what is the point? The sim should cater for a wide base, but if they get the trains supplied with a route accurate then those of you who "just like driving trains" can still enjoy driving the trains and enthusiasts can enjoy a more immersive and realistic experience.

    I would argue that if it wasn't for enthusiasts TSW wouldn't be here, TS1 wouldn't probably be here and MSTS would have probably stopped existing within two years of being released! You don't have to read threads you don't agree with.
     
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  12. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I do hope simrail turns out to be a good product. Dtg could use some well needed competition
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2021
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  13. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    The way that lirr trains and the 375 get power from the third rail though is different. The Third Rail on lirr has a cover so debris doesn't get on it meaning that because the shoes on the 375 are slightly higher than lirr trains, it wouldn't be able to get power from the third rail on the LIRR

    (PS I know it was a joke but I just had to say the explaination lol :))
     
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  14. edward.gregg

    edward.gregg Active Member

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    From what I see from the update streams, TSW2 guys mean well But I suspect they are up against a Money grabbing management! And i think that is where the issue lies. Yes the sim needs to make money to work, but the ethic we are seeing is just get it out to the customer in a workable form. I've also noted comments from some who have hosted the stream that clearly have very limited knowledge of railways.

    I don't want to sound a snob but if you are working on a subject related project you should clearly have a certain level of knowledge on what you are doing, to bring that realism into the sim.

    I have the up most respect for the TSW2 guys, but I was quite annoyed at their response about the autocar for the DB class101. I get their point but its not providing realism, considering autocars have been made for other routes.

    To me it looks like cutting corners to get it out earlier. If the vehicle is integral to the service, why omit it? I Cant say they have done this before.
     
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  15. eire007

    eire007 Active Member

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    Accuracy? Are you for real?? What train to you see that vanishes when it goes through a red light?? Oh please. It’s a GAME
     
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  16. eire007

    eire007 Active Member

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    Then don’t buy the DLC. Don’t make it about prices. There is no gun to anyone’s head to buy.
     
  17. eire007

    eire007 Active Member

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    Love getting little train folk off on their tantrums hahaha ur top of the list so far with responses lol
     
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  18. eire007

    eire007 Active Member

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    I think lifeline is for you, it’s seems your so upset of a teeny tiny train. Booooo hooooo
     
  19. volvolover1972

    volvolover1972 Well-Known Member

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    Clearly your pocket book is bigger than mine. If you’re willing to spend $30 per route to "just drive trains" without any expectations for level of realism or immersion than that’s your choice. I happily pay the prices because a polished and realistic sim product is worth that. An arcade game would not be worth that price. Your position is clearly in the minority here even form DTG's perspectives. For example, DTG would not have developed a complex simugraph physics engine if they didn’t think anyone would value it.
     
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  20. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    Just let him. He's obviously just trolling or something. Contrary to what he likes to make us believe, it's not enthousiasts, but people like him that make the forums toxic.
     
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  21. Blacknred81

    Blacknred81 Well-Known Member

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    Man, you aren't gonna last long here with childish responses like that.
     
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  22. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Troll alert. Maybe this is a good argument for getting rid of casuals - especially the ones who don't even realize they've been thoroughly spanked.
     
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  23. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    If they tried that on a flight sim forum, they wouldn’t last two minutes before being mod booted. If someone wants a more casual experience there are plenty of cloned Indian/Chinese loot box train games on the iPad and Android (there are a few good ones too). Or they could try Trainz...
     
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  24. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    BREAKING NEWS! THIS JUST IN! Train enthusiasts like their trains! How could this happen?? The scientists still cannot find the answer to this day.
     
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  25. SonicScott91

    SonicScott91 Well-Known Member

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    Can we get back to talking about the Dostos please?

    I would’ve preferred that DTG spent that little bit extra time doing the correct Dostos over using pre-existing assets but it is what it is and that’s the choice they’ve made for this route.
    It won’t cause me to lose any sleep, I’m more an appreciator of German traction than a full on enthusiast, I’m not going notice these missing details unless someone points them out. Still, I understand that this will be a bigger deal to those passionate about German railways or Dostos stock.

    Maybe if they do them in a future DLC, they could be patched retroactively into this route where they belong. While this approach would still raise the question “Why not do them in the first place?” I would certainly prefer DTG do this than ignore the inaccuracy forever.

    As for the route, not sure if I’m getting it on release or in a sale yet. The route itself looks very nice but the traction running on it doesn’t stand out from anything we already have. Though that Taurus does look quite fetching in black! :D
     
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  26. TheRealJuralumin

    TheRealJuralumin Member

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    I think it's pretty clear that DTG have gotten themselves stuck in a bad habit of "Put out as much new content as you can and fix it later". They also seem to prioritise working on new content instead of fixing old stuff, they do have a whole team dedicated to working on older DLC, but it would make a lot more sense to just halt production on any new routes and locos, and just put all their effort behind fixing and polishing what they already have! I'd rather have a smaller library of content that's of a very high standard, than a large library of rushed content that's full of shortcuts and inaccuracies.
     
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  27. DB628

    DB628 Well-Known Member

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    And DTG is silence since the Stream again, they don’t Hear the Impact on there Door to fixed the right things into the Game.
    It’s really annoying and disrespectful how they scam the community.
     
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  28. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    There also has been no reaction to how the 112 front lights are too close and the headlight too big. Probably easier to fix than the dostos, but ignored the same.
     
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  29. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    And my guess is the first comment in this thread from DTG will be "play nice or we close it!"
     
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  30. Nei4024

    Nei4024 Active Member

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    I have an idea that maybe has already been raised, or not. But it would be nice if he got to Dovetail.

    Due to the complaints that this route has, most of the reused rolling stock minus the changes of the 112, which is practically a 143. My idea is that they leave this route to launch with Rush hour along with the other routes. And at the time that time, they include the high-entry Dostos and a new locomotive, a German diesel, a br 218, for example. In this way the route would be perfect and not with the excuse of time and many more people would buy it.
     
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  31. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    What annoys me the most is that DTG say they look at the forums and listen to suggestions (some of which are very good and detailed) yet time and time again DTG make the same mistakes.

    Any issues raised up in the livestreams, they constantly brush it off by saying stick it in the forums and someone will have a look at it.

    It almost seems like they’re against the community at times and don’t listen to feedback whatsoever.
     
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  32. mclitke

    mclitke Well-Known Member

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    Well it is the weekend, so...
    And apart from that, they won't change the rolling stock this shortly before release.
    Also I find scam to be inappropriate. In the end, regardless of how accurate to real life it is, you see what you get on the promo pictures.
     
  33. volvolover1972

    volvolover1972 Well-Known Member

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    Well it also depends on who’s hosting the stream. Sam has been known to call out bugs and to demand straight answers from Matt (in a good way). Also, on a preview stream there’s always more leeway with bugs and issues since they can just say it’s a work in progress, but the dosto doors clearly was a decision made early on development.
     
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  34. martschuffing

    martschuffing Well-Known Member

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    Hands clasped together, do you think anyone will notice? Hope not this time but we've been caught out too many times before. Boss, I don't care get that flywheel spun back up NOW!
     
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  35. lukereynolds1

    lukereynolds1 Well-Known Member

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    I just don't understand why DTG set themselves up for these problems. We are told repeatedly that there is so much thought given to choosing a route/loco/train dlc with multiple suggestions being narrowed down to the final one they wish to work on.

    In that case, why choose to build a route when they know that time constraints prevent them from adding the correct dostos? Why choose to build the BR 101 when they know that a lack of control car will concern a lot of people? Why choose to build a route where layers can't be activated by a lot of players?

    It just seems to me that these problems don't even need to occur if they were highlighted as unacceptable problems in the first instance. I feel DTG keep setting themselves up to fail where realism and authenticity are concerned. It's such a shame when there is so much promise and so much content that could be included.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2021
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  36. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    I think the whole layers thing is a gimmick. It’s nice and I do enjoy more traffic but Jesus does your wallet get raped for another train to pop up on each service.

    I’m moving more toward the route needs more interactive features and more moving components. Me, a train and a scalextric car is starting to feel a bit less value for money now.
    Clinchfield made me realise how dead the environments are with all the diggers sat doing sod all
     
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  37. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    I take exception to the inclusion of "train painting" as an arcade-game feature for casuals. At least some of us regard Livery Designer and other mods as a way to increase realism and immersion, whether it's adding RL route-appropriate liveries which DTG didn't include, creating a realistic hodge-podge of rolling stock on freight trains, or simply adding realistic levels of rust and grime. In this respect we're not all that different from the train-painting wing of the model railroad hobby-- and those folks tend to be rivet-counting anoraks per excellence.
     
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  38. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    Interesting video about getting the right details in a route :D

     
  39. RobSkip

    RobSkip Well-Known Member

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    You can't make accurate liveries in the livery editor though, the single font and limited shapes preclude that.
     
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  40. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    You'd be surprised....
     
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  41. RobSkip

    RobSkip Well-Known Member

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    Disregarding any mods, it's impossible to create accurate liveries in the livery editor unless they use the one included font everywhere on the exterior. If the font is wrong, the livery is inaccurate...
     
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  42. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    I have seen many and made many myself. Although you can't always get it absolutely perfect (99 % of times because of the layer limit), things made in the Livery Designer are sometimes absolutely amazing and super close to the real deal.
     
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  43. matinakbary

    matinakbary Well-Known Member

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    Agreed and agreed!
     
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  44. Glazier

    Glazier Member

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    Hm, as I see it now, the plans were that a big part of the work on DLC will be made by third party subcontractors but as SEHS and Rivet addons came out it became clear that third party can not keep up with quality and probably this plans were scraped and everything that would go to 3rd party was returned back to DTG to polish which resulted in last 2 addons being so unfinished - everything that was made by 3rd party and is unrecoverable is being cut out and the testing team is busy by testing and determining what can be finished in time and what should be cut out. So we get unfinished DLC and Adam is waiting for 2 month in queue to test fixes.
     
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  45. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    Do you have a source for this or is it purely speculation?
     
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  46. Glazier

    Glazier Member

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    Just a theory unfortunately. Also, Adams train artist was "stolen" by a main team which should mean that they have more work to do that usual for some reason.
     
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  47. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    You just have to construct the letters and numbers the old-fashioned way:
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2021
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  48. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    I don't see why that's a problem. I mean we can think of the layers are a "bonus" feature - if you have route A, then buy route B, route B will add more services to route A (and maybe even the other way around). But you generally wouldn't buy route B just for the extra services. You may, but obviously it wouldn't be worth it as much. But if you wanted both route A and B anyway, then you're lucky, because by having both, the experience it enhanced on both by more services.

    My biggest complaint with this layering system is that it could be used more extensively. For example a standalone loco DLC could really include more services and scenarios for more routes - where it's prototypical. I mean as it is now, a loco DLC will only give scenarios to one route, and will very rarely give services to more than one route, right?

    But other than that, I think it's a great system. There are some german routes that have great variety made possible by it.
     
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  49. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    The issue here is that when a new loco is introduced, no then-existing route includes it in its timetable, necessarily; except of course for its "home" route and in that case room has to be found in the timetable for it, and the timetable perhaps modified to make the room. That isn't going to be done with all the older routes; they aren't going to build new timetables (a very time-consuming business) in every route for every new loco.

    The only case to date where newer locos have appeared in timetable layers (as opposed to substitutions) on an older route is the forthcoming upgraded RT- where Adam apparently spent three weeks constructing an entirely new timetable which accounted for the German rolling stock released since the route was. But then, RT was the first German route and had a notably skimpy timetable to start with. I can't see, say, HMA getting that treatment.
     
  50. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    I like how you’ve worded this as it almost makes the layers seem half as useful as they were pitched. You’re spot on. I still don’t know what needs what to activate what.

    That said. I wonder (and doubt) whether in the months they plan, months they develop routes, whether these could be prebuilt into the time tables from the off for all routes rather than releasing a route and trying to tuck a layer in after (if im explaining correctly).
     
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