Rush Hour Rolling Stock, Dtgs Strategy And My Opinion

With DTGs accidental early release of the Dovetail Live article about the new Rush Hour DLC we could already take a look at the new routes and rolling stock. Rush Hour seems to cement DTGs new rolling stock strategy in place which we could already see with Diesel Legends and Hamburg-Lübeck (HBL).

HBL just had one preview stream and already got the most amount of criticism I've ever seen regarding a DLC from DTG.
For those of you who didn't notice the problems with HBL: The new route comes with two new locos the BR 112.1 and the BR 182. The 112.1 is a modified version of the BR 143 from RSN and the BR 182 has only one screen moved and the PIS system removed from the separate loco DLC for RT. There are also no new waggons or coaches so all rolling stock in HBL is recycled. The same problem can be seen with the Diesel Legends pack.
Now let's take a look at the rolling stock in the new three routes from Rush Hour:
ACS-64: Whilst being a new locomotive in TSW 2 the ACS-64 was already in TSW 1. It will probably just be the same locomotive.
F40PH-3: The F40PH is already in the Peninsula Corridor DLC. There are differences between both variants but these are mostly regarding sound which we know isn't DTGs strength and could just be copied from the PenCo version.
Class 377/4: 1 to 1 copy from East Coastway.
Class 387: Part of the Electrostar family, like the 377/4 and the 375/9. The major changes will only be the livery and the interior design.
BR 442: 1 to 1 copy from SKA.
BR 143: 1 to 1 copy from RSN.
BR 146.2: 1 to 1 copy from MSB.
BR 185.5: 1 to 1 copy from RRO.

As we can see there is nothing entirely new in this whole pack. And as always Germany has come off the worst of all because the included rolling stock doesn't even have minor changes to it, it is all a direct copy from other routes. The work that has to be done on the rolling stock is very little compared to building a completely new locomotive. And with this now being the third DLC that didn't deliver any new rolling stock to the game my assumptions about this being a new strategy by DTG are strengthening every day.
For me, the rolling stock is the most important part of the game. Of course, a new route is pretty nice, mostly because it delivers new services and new landscape to the game, but I would also be satisfied with just one route and a bunch of high-quality locos to run up and down the same route over and over again.
The number of new rolling stock with a new route has been declining since the release of Train Sim World in 2018. And whilst I wasn't happy with just one new loco per route it was at least something. But having none at all is a reason for me to not buy a new route. At the moment TSW 1 and 2 are my most played games with over 1000 hours in both games combined and I own every available DLC for TSW 2, except for the Diesel Legends Pack. And usually I was very excited about every new DLC for TSW and would even preorder most of them, but neither HBL nor Rush Hour are really appealing to me and do not seem to be worth any of my money.
I'm just really disappointed where DTG is going with they're otherwise great product. DTG is still known for not really focusing on the communities wishes and concerns. And whilst there were improvements over the last year this now seemed to be the top of the hill with a steep decline up ahead. In the past I wasn't happy about many of DTGs strategies: The lack in bug fixing, slow development of new features, the missing appreciation for the communities wishes and much more. But I still supported them in the hope that it would slowly improve and because I still enjoyed their products. But this new strategy is going in the complete opposite way of my view on how TSW should continue and therefore I will also stop supporting this development. This isn't the choice I want to make but it seems like the only way to make it clear to DTG.

DTG you have a strong community that has supported your work for years and has forgiven you your mistakes several times. But with the recent development, it feels like you're flipping us the finger and don't seem to care about our opinion at all. Maybe you should take a look at other developers in the simulation category (e.g. SCS Software or ViewApp) and learn from their communication with the community.

 

ACS-64: yes, same type as in tsw2020, but had to be completely remade for this game, nothing could get carried over
F40PH-3: Not just sound differences, it’s also a physically longer engine
Class 377/4: 1 to 1 copy from East Coastway.
Class 387: Yes, livery and interior design are different, but performance is also new, and sounds are apparently different as well
BR 442: more coaches than in SKA
BR 143: 1 to 1 copy from RSN.
BR 146.2: 1 to 1 copy from MSB.
BR 185.5: 1 to 1 copy from RRO.
Let’s also consider the coaches on the NEC and the cab car(completely new driving experience) there as well. They will have to be built from the ground up, even the amfleets(can’t be reused from tsw2020)
And lastly, but most certainly not least, these are three routes for the price of one. Not really fair to compare them in the same manner as hbl, which is, of course, badly done in terms of rolling stock. This pack has more new rolling stock than hbl, and it’ll likely be the same price. (We don’t know hbl’s cost yet). So when you consider that this has, you know, 3 times more route content, it’s completely fair.

 

Well they will have used as much of the TSW 1 ACS-64 for the TSW 2 version as they could. The main difference between those versions is the technical systems that make it work in the game, but the model can basically just be copied over with modifications to make it compatible with the livery designer.
Whilst I don't have much knowledge about American rolling stock in general, I've done a quick research regarding the F40PH-3, but there was nothing mentioned regarding a difference in length.
The leaked article doesn't mention anything related to a cab car or any of the included coaches so I can't say anything about that.
With the BR 442 it depends on which version they are going to include. The 442s on this line are either 3 or 5 car units, the 3 car unit was already included in RT. And even if they are making the 5 car unit, it will again be not that much of a difference and will add nothing to the diversity of rolling stock.
Of what I've heard of the 387 it doesn't sound noticeably different to other Electrostar trains in the game.

And yes even if we don't have a price yet Rush Hour will probably cost 30€ which is a great deal for three new routes. But let's also consider that the base game also has three (two if you've owned TSW 1 on PC) routes and two entirely new locos. I don't care that there is no new rolling stock for the price they ask. I don't like the massive recycling of rolling stock in general. So even if Rush Hour will be a great deal for the entire content it is still a very poor performance for someone who values the rolling stock the most in TSW.

 

There is also a possibility that artistry may be focused on the upcoming addition of steam which is an as yet untried form of model in tsw. That itself may be taking up quite a lot of resources to develop a good modelling workflow. It's also something that would need a good range of vehicles to populate it from the start. If that is the case, surely things will balance out in time.

The leak of what's upcoming for rush hour shows quite a bit of development input elsewhere and looks good on paper, plus it's what mostly truly runs irl.

 

Looks nearly identical to the NEC New York version to me, sure scripting has probably been reworked, but I highly doubt visual and audio files are new. They were able to reuse 3D assets from the TS Classic version of Clinchfield for TSW, and those are on completely different engines. They can almost certainly reuse assets from TSW to TSW2, it just needs to be rescripted. As opposed to a brand new loco which requires research, sourcing or creating sounds, and 3D modeling, alongside scripting.

Types like the Class 101 have had different lengths compared to their real world counterparts on some routes, mainly NTP lacking three car sets when they did run there in real life. Not guaranteed to happen by any means, but DTG could do the same thing as well here, so I wouldn't assume that till we get confirmation of it.

We don't have confirmation of a cab car at this time, and considering DTG have said they are on par with locos in terms of development resources it would seem strange not to mention it in the blurb if it was gonna be included. I do imagine we'll see some new coaches for the F40PH, but personally I'm not expecting a cab car until DTG says otherwise.

What about TSW2 though? We got complete ICE 3M & 1972 Tube Stock sets, and all the Sand Patch rolling stock and the DB BR 442 set being rebuild. You get more stock for Rush Hour overall sure, and a lot of it does need to be reworked to some degree. But considering we have Adam and Co. reworking stock for free I would question how much effort is truly needed for most of the stock here, it just doesn't seem on par with what they had to do last time. Sure the three routes for $30 makes it more tolerable than other recent example, but I still think it's fair to question it a bit considering what we got last year. I buy routes just as much for stock as the route itself personally, and I think a lot of other people think the same way, at least for me I'm not horribly interested in it. Could still win me over if they manage to execute the routes well, but it's far to early to be judging them yet considering we've hardly seen anything of them.

 

Here's a comparison of a Caltrain F40PH-2CAT with a MBTA F40PH-3C, the Dash 3C is about 8 feet longer. (56'-2"/17.12M to 64'-3"/19.6m)
https://www.thedieselshop.us/Data EMD F40PH.HTML
https://www.thedieselshop.us/Data MP F40PH-3C.HTML

F40PH-2CAT


F40PH-3C


Caltrain F40PH-2CAT vs an ACE F40PH-3C

It wouldn't make any sense for DTG to not include a cabcar for the MBTA rolling stock, as all their trains run in a push-pull configuration (Same as Caltrain), using either Bi-Level or Single Level cars. If they left out a cabcar from the route, there would be an uproar just as big as the problem with the Dostos.

 

Well, we were naive enough to also believe DTG would include a cab car with the BR 101 DLC...

 

I hope this is just some sort of side effect and downfall of the pandemic.
On the other hand, it looks a lot like DTG is not having enough staff in the rolling stock making department, and what makes me even more afraid - they probably ran out of licensing partners. Most of the German trains are from Bombardier, so they seem to be a good licencing partner, but there are hardly any trains from Siemens, Stadler or Alstom. That could unfortunately also be a massive limiting factor. It would be really interesting to hear DTGs side of things on this. Is this a short term problem, or is this how it will be going forwards? Because I have to agree with you - no new rolling stock with routes means no buy

 

Don’t forget the wrong dostos...

 

This cannot be because the 5-car Talent 2 is constructed differently than the 4-car Talent 2.
You can also see a 442 with Dresden Repaint on the preview image, so I think DTG will adapt the interior and exterior paintwork. The Saxonia Talent 2 have also low entry Doors, like the Leipzig Talent 2 and have the same chairs like the Leipzig Talent 2.

And why not recycle the BR146.2 and BR143 when it goes there?

 

I was thinking the same, also considering livery designer compatibility it will be more likely the RT Talent they use on this route, hopefully we get both the 3-car and 5-car version as in reality

 

The 3-car Talent 2 has the air compressor, also in the TSW, in the front car (442 1xx). The Talent 2 four / five car has the air compressor in the middle car. Therefore, if you turn the SKA Talent 2 into a three-car Talent 2, the train does not start because the train does not have an air compressor car.

I do believe that DTG will not release a four-car Talent 2 but a 3 and 5-car train. You cannot drive all RE50 journeys with a three-car Talent 2 in timetable mode, so I think both will work.

 

Watch out, this time DTG could build Dostos with high entry :P . The Dostos from the S-Bahn Dresden are nearly the same like on RSN, only the first class area is smaller and there are (like on the Talent 2) additional white stripes (the Dostos from TS 2021 have them). The Talent 2 has low entries (55 cm like on Rapid Transit instead 76 cm like on Köln-Aachen).
The Talent 2 will be at least the 3-car version, you can see the Number in the picture (442 117).

 

I just hope they don't reuse the RT-Talent, as that model and sounds are not as good as the SKA-one. So I hope they do a new one.

 

We don’t know if the rolling stock on Dresden will be copied. The 442 has different coach set ups, the 146 is seen in white IC livery with white, high door Dostos. Maybe we’ll see those instead. The high door Dostos might then get two liveries for use in HBL. Probably wishful thinking, but a white 146 with white Dostos would be groovy.

 

I'm not too upset at Rush Hour, since the stock is realistic for the area, the price is more than decent and we don't know enough yet to make a final judgement (are the Talent 2s the correct ones for example). However HHL does dissapoint me and I won't be buying it. And the lacking cab car for the BR 101 was a major dissapointment aswell.

All in all it just makes me wonder where all their train artists are going. I saw someone mentioned steam, and I think that's believable. They might also be working in comoletely new rolling stock with completely new systems from highly requested new countries, or a combination of both.

The true dissapointment in that is that DTG doesn't give us an explaination on why their train artists have next to no time for the DLCs currently being released, and why they even had to steal Adam's train artist. I really think the community would be more undertstanding if DTG was more communicative about things like this. An explaination wouldn't take away the fact that people won't buy certain DLC because the wrong or same trains are included, but it might make the community that supports DTG understanding and patient untill new things come, instead of upset and dissapointed (and currently rightly so).

Of course it's still an option it's a stupid cash-grab, butnI truly believe the people at DTG are passionate about their game, so I think and hope that is not the reason.

I hope Sam can adress some of these concerns tonight, as he seems better in asking and answering the hard questions than JD, who seems to skirt around them.

 

I don't want to dissapoint you, but the 146 was a 146.2 I believe, and only the 146.5 hauled IC trains.

Also, the high entry dostos from the IC2 are from the 5th generation and those from HHL from the 4th, so I think reusing the model will be difficult.

 

matjamca
Not sure about the white 146 and the IC-Dosto.
They would need to redo nearly all the coaches, and also make several changes to the 146.
And the article clearly stated 146.2, while the IC 146 are the 146.5.
Ok, they are nearly exactly the same, but then the article would probably have said the 146.5, and not 146.2.

But I would love the IC2-trains.

 

matjamca there is no BR 146.2 in white IC Livery. Dostos with high doors for IC2 are from the 5th Generation and have a different interior. You can't just use Intercity 2 Dostos in red livery on Hamburg-Lübeck. The Dostos on the S-Bahn Dresden are from the fourth Generation with low doors (Dosto03 and Dosto07, the most are Dosto07 (very similar to the RSN Dostos)). The Intercity 2 uses Dostos with high doors from the fifth Generation, on this route with a DB BR 146.5 (not BR 146.2!). On RE15/RE18/RB31 are services with the BR 442 and services with a BR 112 (or 143) and 3 Dostos (maybe also with high doors, but I guess mostly low doors). The Dostos for this route can be copied with little changes (white stripe like on Talent 2 and smaller first class area) without being unrealistic for the regional/S-Bahn trains.

And it looks like others were faster

 

My bad. I just saw 146 and assumed 146. I forget about the sub classes.

 

No problem, I had the same initially and was corrected myself .

 

Best to get over our disappointments now and enjoy the game when it’s released.
Fortunately the scenery is more important to me as I will be inside looking out, not outside looking in.
It’s interesting just how varied our priorities are for TSW.

 

What do you expect for 30 Euros? You get three more or less new routes and they will have adapted the rolling stock, even though it is similar to what we already know. The ACS64 needs to be rebuilt to accommodate ^SW2 quality and the F40PH may need to be upgraded with ACES safety system. If you think it is not worth the money, do not complain, but just do not buy it and wait a few months to get a nice discount. You will get the technical upgrade anyway.

 

Even though I completely agree that the pack will probably be worth it for 30 euros and that some work does actually have to be done, I wouldn't say people shouldn't complain. They have the right to, and without complaints DTG wouldn't know what issues people would like to see adressed in either updates or new content. Of course it's better if the complaints turn into constructive feedback, but I do see that happening a lot too.

 

I’m just hoping DTG don’t mess up the scenery with these routes, and make it look like it’s half complete like SEHS looks. That route is an absolute joke when it comes to scenery. Even more embarrassing seeing as it’s DTG’s local line, which goes past their doorstep.

DTG, DON’T mess this up!

 

You didn't get the point of my criticism at all. It's not about the financial side or the routes themselves, it is about DTG not including any really new rolling stock to the game. They are either just a direct copy or modified versions of already existing content. I think Rush Hour would be really worth it and I would get it but the new strategy is something I just don't want to support and the only way to make this clear to DTG is not to buy this product. If HBL wouldn't have happened just last week I might not be as grumpy about this as I am right now, but DTG made the decision and the community doesn't seem to be very happy about it.

 

SEHS is a mess.

 

I can't see how DTG could not make the cab car with the MBTA's. Boston is a terminus station, and the trains run push-pull without changing orientation just like they do on the Peninsula corridor. DTG can't have trains magically flip ends, nor can they plausibly run trains with the loco on the wrong end.

 

Probably that they wanted to say 146.5 not 146.2 they don't say anything about a db red livery just about a db livery so that could be a IC livery

 

They don't say anything about IC services, either, just ICE.

To include IC2, DTG would have to basically do a new train: a 146.5 or 147 loco, and all-new 5th-gen Dostos (not the 4th-gens currently in the game). Somehow I doubt they'll do that (especially since if they were, they would be hyping it in the announcement)

 

ionutmineadaniel the DB BR 146.2 operates also on the S-Bahn Dresden. And again, there is no BR 146.2 in Intercity livery. They wrote multiple times BR 146.2, not BR 146.5.

 

Its interesting to me that these routes seem quite quick to come together. I mean we knew the roadmap was a bit bare but I wasn't expecting 3 brand new routes in the pack. I am wondering whether there have been some improvements in the pipeline for moving things from TS to TSW.

Someone else pointed out that one of the station models was the same in TSW as TS and some other flats were reused too in another route. One thing this does do is slightly reduces the advantage that TS has over TSW - huge array of content. Maybe at this point they are determined to move as many routes over as possible and then eventually discontinue support for TS?

This may well be why the rolling stock is recycled, that is the main part that needs remaking and can't move from TS to TSW, the other assets can move over in a more straightforward fashion. Getting new routes out there seems to be a big priority at the moment, not making new types of trains. The Loco DLCs are generally new, the stock included with the recent routes definitely not. (other option is a lot of the train-making team are doing steam trains right now!)

 

I don't see any change in the usual six-routes-per-year release schedule. It is true however that new rolling stock has slowed down quite a bit.

 

Maybe DTG plan to release locomotive/train packs as separate DLC?

 

Honestly, I'd pay 30€ just for the Boston - Providence route. We also get the Brighton Mainline which I was hoping for and another german route. I'm happy with that.

 

Whatever way you look at it, it is superb value for money. Might we get everything we want, probably not, but we can’t have everything.

 

That does seem likely. They know a ICE-T, IC 2, Acela and maybe something for the british route would all sell well as seperate DLC.

And because more people will have the base routes due to rush hour being a bundle, DTG has a larger playerbase to sell these DLCs to.

I don't mind this however, as I've previously mentioned loco add-on quality is usually higher than the locos that come with routes (so I'm okay with paying 14 euros for them, or at least picking them up on a sale leter), and I'm still getting 3 interesting routes for 30 euros.

 

Others have mentioned it and let’s not forget the effect of the global pandemic in this, where DTG have simply not been able to go out and do the level of research they need or desire for new locos. The community have not reacted well to them getting something slightly wrong on a loco and that is inevitable when you are relying on no new detailed real world hands on research of anything. Using stock they have already made makes perfect sense and where they have had to slightly remodel a train, such as the 143 into a 112 the community has not been forgiving of their attempts. Look at the recent forum topics on the subject. We are in the right time period of route production that coincides with the time when no hands on research was possible for the trains they contain, so it has dictated somewhat what routes and stock they can produce, so routes from TS and stock reused from previous TSW releases.

For those people who regularly bend and stretch the boundaries of what is acceptable to do during the pandemic who are thinking that DTG could have easily arranged some hands-on time with some trains, there is a lot to be said for them not doing so, and doing what is best for their employees, helpers in the field, and the world population by taking the approach they have. We get some trains we have had before, not the worst effect of Covid, and not one to complain about really.

 

I completely understand that Covid has made things more difficult, however DTG still isn't communicating clearly about that. I'd like a 'hey guys, this and this is genuinely more difficult'.

Instead we got a 'what's the point, same dostos basically'.

I understand that they redo TS routes, and I don't mind as long as the TSW routes are up to the TSW standard. However, I do wonder, if they can reuse route research from TS, why can't they reuse loco/rolling stock research? The high-entry dostos are in TS, so wouldn't they know the measurements, interior layout, sounds etc. already? However, those are issues I only have regarding Hamburg - Lübeck.

As for Rush Hour, the locos might be (partially) reused, but as far as we currently know, they are accurate for the area and time, and that's what matters to me. I'm more then fine with the locos that come with Rush Hour as long as some previous issues are fixed.

 

I agree with Hamburg - Lubeck.

Altough I don't mind for RH, it's 3 routes for the price of 1, it's obvious there is going to be less content than usual, SPG was not new and only required some modifications in order to work with consoles.

Bakerloo had some quality issues as well with a lot of clipping and the sounds not being top notch.

I don't know whether the ACS-64 is going to be improved, I remember it was extremely basic in the TSW2020 version (it lacked a lot of features), same for the F40PH, which is a bit outdated in terms of cab details and textures.

The current german trains are fine it they get fixed by Adam's team, same for the 377.

 

I think those screenshots are placeholder screenshots. I think that exact same Amtrak screenshot was used for the old NEC route.

 

The only problem with that is that, while it would apply up through [Clinchfield] correction: Hamburg-Lubeck (the last route of last year's batch), now we are talking about routes which weren't even decided upon until this March, with COVID on its way out. It also wouldn't explain the lack of a new British loco, since COVID shouldn't interfere with UK research.

Instead, the impression I am getting is that (in direct opposition to the video), a major factor used in selecting a route is not "new and varied rolling stock," but rather "is this a route where we can recycle existing rolling stock?"

Now, that may be a bit harsh given that the users have been clamoring VERY LOUDLY for the return of NEC, and for Victoria-Brighton. And all German routes basically use the same trains (unless they choose a non-electrified diesel line).

 

Yea, I was thinking that because both Brighton Mainline pictures were at Brighton which is already in game.

 

That's because it is. And the 377 came from ECW, and the 442 from SKA. Why? Because there are not and can not be any screenshots from the Rush Hour routes, which are 3-4 months away from release. If they were to do a "screenshot," it would be of a gray wireframe model.

 

I suspect these routes have been getting worked on for a while already, quietly behind the scenes, whilst also doing all the necessary updates that’ll come.

 

DTG didn't even decide to do them until a few weeks ago. Mid-March is when they pick the routes for the upcoming year.

 

I really think Rush Hour is fine.
The rolling stock is not brand new, but c'mon... you're getting three routes for one. And each of them will have something new to offer.
NEC will have brand new cars for MBTA
BML will feature 387, fairly different to the Electrostars in-game.
BRD will have (ok... should have) 5-car Talent. This, the 3-car version and Dostos all should be in the VVO livery.
(+nothing is put onto a wrong route like with HHL)

For the same price as HHL, this one is an instant pick. The content is seriously good.

 

I just wonder whether they are spreading their development teams too thin and taking an “ah well” approach and just chasing the golden nuggets. It’s business after all

 

But that doesn’t necessarily include the Rush Hour pack. The recently decided DLC, which me might find out about later today, could well be separate. I can’t see how they could get three routes built in just a few months.

 

This has been going on for a while, its why the roadmap was looking a bit thin on new routes.