The Big Problem With Ap Trains...

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by inversnecky, Jan 26, 2021.

  1. SJA

    SJA Active Member

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    Indeed - that's the thing. Some of these products are 15-30 months in the making and involve multiple specialists working on different elements (as is the case with AP, with an additional texturing guy and a scripter for the higher functionality).

    I can understand £25-£30 being too steep for someone who has recently become unemployed or retired, but ultimately a lot of people who are overly critical of the pricing (from what I've seen on social media in particular) have posts elsewhere demonstrating their £1800 PC build, £400 gaming chair and extensive gaming libraries, and such like. £25 is nothing to them -- they clearly have money.

    Ultimately people have choices, but shouldn't expect such high levels of attention to detail, along with advanced feature recreation, to come cheap. It rarely works out that way when buying anything. Although I've seen it cut the other way with people not hesitating to drop £25 on a DTG route (without even looking at it) but scoffing at the idea of donating a couple of quid to an excellent freeware route that they've really enjoyed and has excellent build quality.

    I'm always happy, cashflow permitting, to spend on this hobby. It has undoubtedly driven quality and enjoyment up. And I think most of us can do our little bits here and there to keep it going, whether that's buying an indie dev product at full price or donating to a freeware route developer who has recreated an area with expert precision. It's ours to keep afloat, in essence.
     
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  2. IronBladder

    IronBladder Well-Known Member

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    dunkrez, I get that you love AP's products, but you seem to be saying that people should pay more for products than their value to them so you can continue to get products you like. Isn't that a bit selfish?

    I like some of AP's products, but they have become bloatware with tons of liveries I don't need, scenarios I can't use and functions I don't want; e.g. what's the point of a pretend radio? All this bloat has pushed their price up to the point where I'm now not opening my wallet, even at sale time. I have a wife and kids who rightly also have a claim to disposable household cash and AP's price/performance ratio has dropped to the point where my pleasure in train simming is diminished by buying them because I feel guilty about what I've spent!

    Ok, that's me, I don't expect others to feel the same, but let's have an end to the nonsense of we must pay high prices for the greater good.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2021
  3. dunkrez

    dunkrez Well-Known Member

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    It's not the customers perceived value to themselves I'm debating, rather, the actual commercial and financial costs invested to bring these specialist items to market. More often than not the margins for profit are extremely tight. So, isn't it selfish to want to pay your perceived value rather than the actual commercial and financial return required to continue supporting such devs?

    Afaik: AP are branching out into other fields of expertise due to this, if it doesn't pay the bills, it isn't viable from a business perspective.

    Support what you enjoy, if you can! :)
     
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  4. Cyclone

    Cyclone Well-Known Member

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    While both points are valid, I will agree with the fact that 30 pounds for a train - or over $50 in my area, more than the price of a route - is never going to happen. I can live without a 411 or 412.

    In a poor way. I would still buy some of the old scenario packs today, particularly in some cases with updated stock. The new "buy one at a time" method, IMO, is not good.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2021
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  5. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    He's expressing his opinion :) I also happen to agree with it. I think all AP stuff is fantastic. The only time I was disappointed was with the class 40, and they've since fixed the reason I was disappointed.
     
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  6. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    You pay your money, you take your choice. Personally, knowing how much research, fieldwork, modelling, and sheer time, effort and heartache that goes into creating the stuff, I think suggesting that £30 is too much is a bit of an insult. I think it's worth every single penny. Not everything is £30 either. The excellent 150/2 is £20. The class 40 is £20. The class 90 is £15.

    Try getting a plumber to get off his arse for £30, and compare what he woudl have done to the MONTHS of work it takes to produce these assets.

    If anyone cannot afford £30 for a AP product, then sure... don't buy them, but to suggest that they are priced too high is just... bizarre when you compare the quality compared to other TS assets. I mean, you can pay £20 for a DTG asset, and let's be honest... LOL.. there's no comparison.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2021
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  7. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    With AP's add-ons I will buy a train I don't own in another form or an sound/enhancement pack if it improves, in my opinion, the default DTG offering - which is most times.

    But I have not bought anything I already own a DTG version of - like 150/2, 156, 319, 456.
    If it works and I'm happy with what it does why change it.

    I think the Enhancement Packs are good because they turn a poor DTG product in to a good one - like the 66, 68 & 86.

    Peter
     
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  8. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    I think we'll just have to disagree. If it wasn't for the wealth of 3rd party routes, and AP rolling stock, I seriously doubt I'd even waste my time with TS20xx. It was AP product videos that made me buy Train Sim. It reminds me of something someone said to me back in the Internet Explorer days... "Internet Explorer is fantastic! Without it you can't download Firefox". I love Train Sim dearly, but it's the base application that allows me to run 3rd party assets of higher quality. I'm not discounting DTG stuff entirely, and some of the newer stuff is really good, but when it comes to most of the portfolio of assets you get on Steam, there's just no comparison IMO, and paying between £15 and £30 is a fair price, and well worth the money. Some of the enhancement packs are a bit suspect though, like the class 31 EP... still looks like Kuju hot garbage when you're sat in the cab. Enhancement packs are pretty cheap on the whole though, and still make some old assets more palatable.

    Just offering an alternate opinion to the usual AP bashing, usually because they don't give their stuff away for peanuts. Not that you, Peter were saying that, but that's the usual argument against AP.
     
  9. Nick Y

    Nick Y Well-Known Member

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    There's also the issue that some 3rd party routes require AP add-ons for scenarios etc.
    Take the JT MML for example. Yes, it comes with default scenarios using DTG stock locos but there are a lot of extra scenarios that can only be accessed with AP add-ons.
     
  10. dunkrez

    dunkrez Well-Known Member

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    I think they're going beyond Train Simulator and venturing into other areas of simulation interest from what I gather. Shame really, as more AP for TS is never a bad thing.
     
  11. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    They way I look at is "What do I drive the most" I like locos but I don't drive many units.
    APs 411 is a slight exception as I like the older units. Most of the units I hardly touch.
    Does it make much difference if the AI train that goes past is a normal DTG or an AP version if they look the same
    The DTG version is useful as AI but I cannot justify spending a lot of money if I'm not going to drive the train afterwards.
    Yes and no.
    You can run most of those scenarios by changing the AP add-on for a DTG version.

    Yes - you want the train you are driving to be the best possible and it might be an AP version
    No - you don't need an AP version of a loco or unit if it is sat in a Sdg or is going past at a combined speed of 100mph
     
  12. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    True, but that's not AP's fault, or a problem with AP trains, which is the title of this thread. ;)
     
  13. IronBladder

    IronBladder Well-Known Member

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    So you think I'm selfish because I will only pay what a product's worth to me, or do without if I think the price is too high?

    "Oh please Mr Customer pay £50 for this chocolate bar because it's a lovely chocolate bar and I've spent two years designing the wrapper and look I'm giving you eight other designs of wrapper with it, each of which took me a further six months to design" To which you want me to say "Gosh, how foolish and selfish of me, of course I must pay you for features I didn't ask for and don't want, and of course I absolutely must pay you for the six years of wrapper design, because even though the wrappers are valueless to me other wrapper collectors must have the wrappers they want and I'm personal responsible for subsidising their likes otherwise I'm very selfish."

    This is not how life works, and you know it.
     
  14. dunkrez

    dunkrez Well-Known Member

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    No, I just called you out because you gave me the same treatment. Life's way too short to argue over such trivialities.

    I have my opinion, you have yours. And that's okay.

    Enjoy the rest of your Sunday mate :)
     
  15. junior hornet

    junior hornet Well-Known Member

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    I have to say that I had avoided buying additional trains from AP or anyone else until recently. The main reason being the sheer number of trains you have to buy to run scenarios on some routes made it ridiculously expensive, However, I purchased the 150/2 pack (needed for a scenario on Railways of Devon and Cornwall I wanted to run) in a sale and it has quickly become my favourite train to drive, particularly in quick drive mode.

    If this is indicative of quality, I can recommend them especially if you need the train for a scenario and it is in a sale. Otherwise you can end up spending a fortune.
     
  16. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    I downloaded a scenario that uses a number of AP unit packs and EP packs but as I had the DTG version I just changed them for the default trains - The train I was driving was the AP 313 in Southern livery - not available elsewhere so worth a purchase a few years ago
     
  17. ntypeman

    ntypeman Well-Known Member

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    I rarely buy AP stuff at full price, I'll generally wait for a sale... There was a occurrence though a week or two ago when I bought the 303 enhancement pack at full price @ £6.99...

    I did some soul searching as to how desperately I wanted it... The wanted it part of the argument won... I don't drink much (maybe a bottle of cider once a month if that!!!) or smoke & it wasn't a ridiculous amount & it wasn't gonna break the bank...

    Everyone has their limits & justifications...

    Eric
     
  18. junior hornet

    junior hornet Well-Known Member

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    It’s probably because you had a clear head Eric and made an informed decision, Those of us who do drink are more likely to make rash decisions which they regret later :)
     
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  19. Aryffordd

    Aryffordd Guest

    Same here. Paid full price and don’t begrudge a penny of it. It really is a transformative experience, and I just don’t have any strong desire to drive anything else now. Works particularly well with Danny’s merge of the South Wales Coastal and Welsh Marches routes for looonnnggg rewarding services.
     
  20. dunkrez

    dunkrez Well-Known Member

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    The 150/2 is a great bit of kit, thoroughly recommend trying the 156.
     
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  21. Cyclone

    Cyclone Well-Known Member

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    I have to get the 350 next sale. So much I have found using it. 375/377 is on my agenda, too. But so much for me to do in the meantime, I can wait. Oh, and let's not forget the 156, the West Highland Line train of choice these days.
     
  22. Nick Y

    Nick Y Well-Known Member

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    I'm loving the improved sounds and experience I get from the AP class 158/159 Sprinters and the variety of routes I can use them on with standard scenarios that others (JT etc) have created.
    Now having those 2 (and the 175) makes me want even more stock (mostly passenger) to use on routes as my collection builds.
    I put my liking of the packs I bought on a par with the experience I get from using the JT voyager advanced packs.

    And, I know I said earlier in the thread I wasn't impressed that it stated the locos weren't compatible with external controllers such as PS4 or XBox but those controllers do actually work (except for the AWS cancel button).
     
  23. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    Especially Cummins versions.. The sound is PERFECT. I've been on more 158s than I can remember, and the sound is utterly perfect.. even the bangs, clicks, and thumps, and that "singing" sound you get from the rails at around 45mph. Sonically, the 158 enhancement pack is, IMO AP's best example of sound in the whole simulator.
     
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  24. Aryffordd

    Aryffordd Guest

    I’ll add it to my wish list, thanks for the recommendation!
     
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  25. Cyclone

    Cyclone Well-Known Member

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    It is also heavily used on the Highland routes. Pretty much a must. Have it ready if you download scenarios for the WHL merge, you’ll need it if you don’t want to lose the driving experience. (AI can be swapped, though, if you drive something else.)

    I have a set for the old version of the route and will be taking AP trains on routes not otherwise in TS. Looking forward to that.
     
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  26. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    The average price for AP products seems to be less than £20. There are very few priced at £30. In fact, there is only one product at £30.
     
  27. Cyclone

    Cyclone Well-Known Member

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    My point was that it - the 411/412 - costs more than a route at retail. Not worth that. Though I read the manual for it recently and see why. Lots of work on passenger views and the like. Still better to wait for a sale, though, since it seems absurd to buy it but not a route to drive it on. Also have to determine where exactly it gets driven before I try to utilize it.
     
  28. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    That's always the case :) More than half of my almost complete AP collection was bought through sales.
     
  29. Cyclone

    Cyclone Well-Known Member

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    To be fair, all of mine is. And so will any more. Money, sadly, is an object. More so today nearing the end of a pandemic that has been rather trying,
     
  30. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    We've all felt that, sure, but I still think most AP products are priced fairly, and similarly to other 3rd party providers, such as Just Trains.
     
  31. Reef

    Reef Well-Known Member

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    I stick my "pocket money" in my Paypal automatically via bank transfer every week, if there are no sales on then my balance builds up healthily, if there's a sale on then I batter the living daylights out of my Paypal balance..
     
  32. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    I think you'd be surprised how many others do just that :)
     
  33. Reef

    Reef Well-Known Member

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    I was going to say I'd be more surprised hearing that people don't, but then I have heard people say "great there's a sale on now I have no money:(, why didn't they have the sale last week??? :mad::mad:")
     
  34. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    I have a "Gaming" paypal account. I just put odd amounts in now and then. A fiver here... couple of quid there... maybe a tenner once in a while. It soon mounts up. I think there's around £50 quid in there at the moment.
     
  35. inversnecky

    inversnecky Well-Known Member

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    Was searching for this! Must create a desktop link as I can never remember....
     
  36. Peter Hayes

    Peter Hayes Well-Known Member

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    Like most simmers I love AP enhancements etc - I own 99% of them and probably my purchases alone have pushed Richard into the next tax bracket.
    What I dislike is the clunky method of installation, ie using Microsoft's outdated msi installer that leaves behind a file on your PC - the size of the original install. Plus every update, however minor, is a full download and re-install that uses a lot of bandwidth from the web. The last set of updates, for me, totalled (US Spell-checker this the UK spelling - go away) around 11GB for mainly relatively minor changes. Thankfully, (unlike JT), AP doesn't require you to uninstall their DLC first before reinstalling.
    I will still keep buying anyway!
    pH
     
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  37. dunkrez

    dunkrez Well-Known Member

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    If updates were offered bit by bit and delivered by an automated update system I for one would be very happy.
     
  38. Reef

    Reef Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately as we know from Richard himself a new updater is not a viable option for him and his team to put time into, I for one would prefer having the current option over no further enhancements or updates, at all!
    A change to the odd scenario is an extremely small and easily fixed (TS-Tools) price to pay.
     
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  39. Cyclone

    Cyclone Well-Known Member

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    I think the JT uninstall is by design. I opened an installer thinking I had not installed it yet and I watched that pack uninstall before my eyes with no further inputs. Uh, thanks?
     
  40. martschuffing

    martschuffing Well-Known Member

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    There is an auto-updater for AP stuff now, just got to Online Simulations to download it.
     
  41. inversnecky

    inversnecky Well-Known Member

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    Have you seen his latest Rolls Royce? :)

    Seriously, they throughly deserve it, so such quality products. It’s a niche within a nice, with a limited revenue to cover all the hours involved.
     

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