Lirr Speed Limits

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by solicitr, May 11, 2021.

  1. geloxo

    geloxo Well-Known Member

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    Sure mate, but it´s a matter of common sense that, whatever ASC tells to you, a stop signal ahead (or an occupied block) means a 0 speed limit at the entry to that block which is on top of any other speed limits which may be applicable at that section, unless otherwise instructed by a particular override order (proceed without stopping via a track bulletin for instance). As soon as signals announce a stop you need to adapt to that situation because ASC is not giving you signals aspects, just speed limits. If signals do not announce that then that´s a bug, a clear error.

    Therefore you should not drive following ASC but following the speed limits and signal indications and both you need to know for this route because, being true to reality or not, in game there are only 4 speed boards (the reason behind that I don´t know but is what we have). ASC will just supervise you, but it´s not a driving guidance as TVM or LZB could be. They are different concepts even if belonging to the same systems family at the end of the day. LIRR ASC is just a speed monitoring solution and the only thing it can do is to monitor the max speeds and your braking to ensure a proper separation between trains, while the others are full train protection systems, because they also supervise train movements precisely and according to current signals status at every place. In the only situation where you must follow ASC (or when it has priority over the rest so to speak) is when its displayed speed limit is lower than the one in force for that section of the track. In that case you need to brake to adapt to that limit and do it in time or ASC will command brakes. But that´s all. The rest is a regular visual driving which requires driver to know the line. At that was clearly not the optimal solution for such a line in the long term that´s why they migrated system to a full PTC solution afterwards but this is not what we have in game, at least as of today.

    The best way to drive I could recommend is to either use the route map I prepared or to use HUD indication to replace route knowledge (not the speedometer but just distance to next speed limit announcement on top right) and leave ATC active. This is still very realistic and you could use warnings from ATC to adapt speed when required, but you will still need to drive fully visual most of the time.

    Cheers
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2021
  2. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Well, duh. What I am trying to tell you is that there WAS NO stop signal (if there had been, the game would have registered a SPAD). The track signal read Proceed Clear. Again: the LIRR signalling is completely, horribly mucked up.
     
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  3. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    True, but in case of a stop signal, the ATC on LIRR would slowly get you down to stop by decreasing the ATC speed limit step by step. This is not working correctly, often it will allow you to do 80mph then suddenly 15mph out of nowhere, but at point you don't even have time to stop by the red signal. You may spot the "yellow" signal before it and beging slowing down even without the ATC telling you to do so, but the ATC should tell you to do so anyway.

    The ATC was broken on LIRR since release and the last update broke it even more. It's a goddamn joke.
     
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  4. geloxo

    geloxo Well-Known Member

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    I don´t intend to mean that there are not errors in some signals, because there will be some for sure, the same way there are errors on some of the PZB signals case, but there´s indeed a lot of misunderstanding about this ATC as well, and the lack of proper game documentation and tutorials does not help at all indeed.

    The main misunderstandings are the following:

    1) It won´t do a smooth step by step reduction always, but only when it´s possible according to the signals sequence for the route which is set and the conditions ahead of train. It´s not a system intended to ease driving but just to provide safety. In the routes involving switches you can most likely expect a very smooth speed reduction sequence because they are the ones that involve also many intermediate signal aspects.

    2) The displayed limits won´t be the same for the same signal aspects everywhere because the displayed speed does not take into account just the signal aspect itself but also many other conditions ahead of the signal like the distance to the closest switch after the signal for instance. That´s why you can have sudden speed reductions or apparently inconsistent cab indications not matching the signal that you just faced. They are not bugs on the game implementation! This is how the system is expected to work in reality.

    3) As commented many other times ATC does not reflect the track speed limits, only the max authorized speed limits for the blocks and those speeds are updated dynamically according to the situation ahead of train, not only according to the signal indications themselves. The track speed limits and the ATC limits can mismatch and will mismatch really frequently. You have to follow always the most restrictive one of those two.

    4) Displayed limits are not speed announcements and you won´t be even warned about the further reductions you may expect ahead of them, therefore you will have a lot of sudden reductions without any warning. They are just the limits in force for your train as soon as they become active. They are normally updated at the signals but they can also be updated before or after them if conditions ahead require a speed change. For that reason the system includes a braking supervision and you have to reduce speed AFTER the new limit is displayed as it´s when it becomes in force (this is indeed the normal driving procedure). If you don´t brake enough is when system reacts and stops train. Braking deceleration monitoring is the basis of this system as it´s designed to ensure a proper train spacing so that they can operate safely under any of the possible signalling conditions they face.

    I would suggest to go into: NTSB Home

    Enter in the search box the following docs:
    • LIRR Operating Rule Book-Master
    • LIRR Special Instructions-Master
    • LIRR Train Handling and Equipment Manual-Master
    • LIRR Signal Rules-Master
    In the operating rule and special instruction docs do a search for ASC, which is the official name of the safety system. One interesting rule in particular is 1402-A, which links the signal indications to ASC displayed limits. You can see that 15 is possible also with the approach aspects for instance, not only with the restricting or stop aspects.

    Limits.jpg

    Other key rules are the following, that you will find in the Operating rule book:

    402. The cab signal indication will not authorize operation of the train at a speed higher than that authorized by the indication of the fixed signal, which governed the movement of the train into the block. However, when conditions affecting the movement of the train within the block change after passing the fixed signal, the speed displayed on the cab signal indicator will govern. When the cab signal indicator changes to a more restrictive indication, the speed must be reduced at once to the speed indicated. When the cab signal indicator displays 15, a train must proceed at RESTRICTED SPEED until a more favorable cab signal indication is received. Except, however, when 15 is displayed in conjunction with interlocking signals displaying an aspect of Slow-clear or Slow-approach, the train will proceed at Slow speed.

    403. If cab signal and fixed signal indications conflict, the more restrictive indication will govern.

    404. Cab signal indications do not supersede fixed signal indications except when the cab signal indicator changes to a more restrictive or more favorable indication after passing a fixed signal.

    In the M7 units appendix of the Train Handling manual you have a description about the braking supervision made by ATC on page 12. That describes how driver has to deal with speed reductions.

    I hope this helps because I can´t explain this better than I tried in the latest posts... :o:D And I know it´s hard to understand because this system sometimes could be appearing to behave against "common sense" but that´s only because the lack of the complementary ACSES system that they currently implement during real service and because it´s very different to the other systems people is used to find in game. Forget everything you know and train yourselves till you get used to this system. It´s the only thing I could recommend. It´s a really interesting system and LIRR is one of the most challenging environments to drive in game, despite being so unpopular.

    Cheers
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2021
  5. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    Dude... you can write a whole book about the ATC on LIRR, it's still badly implemented and buggy in game. I know how it's supposed to work, but it doesn't work properly in the game. Even the devs themselves confirmed it, and admitted what everyone knew already, that the incorrectly working ATC is the reason LIRR can't get a proper, busy timetable.

    In real life on LIRR it can get that busy that trains will follow each other in line of sight. In game the ATC is so bad that you will barely see any trains at all, because it won't allow for more trains to be placed on the route without resulting in crashes all over the place. If the ATC in real life worked like it does in game, the LIRR would not have any functioning trains left because they would've all been crashed by now.

    If you want an exact example: drive a service from Hempstead and see for yourself how the ATC will keep you going at 15mph after leaving Garden City for like half a mile for no reason at all. The track is clear, no train in front of you for many many ATC blocks, the track limit is 60mph or 80mph, yet you will be crawling at 15mph because for... why exactly? And it will do this in every single service, any time of the day without exception.

    Instead of copy pasting a whole LIRR ATC documentation from real life for no reason at all, start it up in the game and see for yourself how bad it is.
     
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  6. geloxo

    geloxo Well-Known Member

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    Could it be maybe caused by the rear of your train needing to release the 15mph limit before Garden city caused by the big level crossing placed out of sight after the curve and followed by a switch that you have to pass in the diverging position, and because the next signal for your driving direction after the signal protecting the level crossing + the switch + the Garden City entry is just the exit signal from Floral Park, placed at the end of the branch, so miles away? There are no more blocks there because there are no more signals. The whole section between that level crossing and Floral Park is just a single block including four stations inside but it´s still one block. You are lucky that it has intermediate ATC updating points between those two signals to allow at least the speed increase after releasing the switch at the level crossing and to allow the further speed increases afterwards... Is this a bug or a misunderstanding again?

    LX.jpg

    Cheers
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2021
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  7. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    It's a bug, and a pretty well known one. What would be the point of the ATC holding the train up for no reason at all, realistically? You also mention the rear of the train needing to get out of the 15mph restriction. First of all, the ATC doesn't account for the rear of the train. So it won't hold you back just because your rear is still in a slower zone.

    Also if I remember correctly, just like with actual track speed increases, when the ATC's speed limit increases, you need to wait for your train's rear to pass the point where the ATC changed before starting to accelerate. Now if you were to follow this rule, along with the buggy ATC changing too late, you could only start accelerating after passing the baseball field after Garden City. At that point you would've wasted more than an entire minute going 15mph for no reason at all. Good luck keeping to the timetable.

    Look at this cab ride for example, the train leaves Garden City at 6:20 in the video and clearly accelerates in a normal fashion. It's not crawling at 15mph until the baseball field like you're required to do so in the game.
     
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  8. geloxo

    geloxo Well-Known Member

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    Last try and I give up, honestly. I try to help but I can´t prevent that you pretend something to work as you consider it should work, instead of how it works. I used the 6 car 8:10h service (just one taken randomly).

    Before the level crossing (approach aspect ahead): 30 on ATC --> correct according to rules and the speed table I posted before.

    1.png

    After that signal (the one defining the entry to the block containing Garden, Nassau, Stewart and Floral) ATC gets updated to 15. Reason: there´s a track condition ahead of signal forcing ATC to limit speed because a switch is placed very close to the signal and train passes it in the diverging position. As there are no other track circuits in between the signal and that switch the ATC update must happen just after the signal or the ATC won´t be preventing an overspeed at the switch. Why 15 and why not keep 30, if 30 is the displayed speed in HUD for the switch? Because ATC does not know about track speed limits but it just know the next signal after you is giving stop aspect and the route contains a switch in between so the switch adds a constraint on top of current limit and ATC must apply at least the next available restrictive limit in the list to protect train, and that´s 15 --> correct according to rules and according to safety.

    2.png

    This 15 won´t be released until rear of train at least clears the switch (indeed until head of train enters the next track circuit). Reason: two track circuits are being occupied by train at that location (the one before the signal and the one containing the switch and your head of train) but the next possible place to get new information would be either the Floral signal or the next available track circuit or update point. For this particular case in game we know where the next track circuit limit is because there´s a dwarf signal for the opposite direction after the second switch that we find once we passed the first switch and the level crossing. All those signals (and another one located in the other sub-branch which is not accesible by player) are the ones protecting those pair of switches and the 4 tracks. As no other intermediate track circuit exists between the two switches ATC can´t be updated before because train is indeed still inside the former track circuit (the one after the signal seen in the first pic) and for that section the 15 mph protection related to the first switch is still in force. Remember that ATC speed limits are always linked/applicable to blocks or as a minimum to each of the track circuits which are inside the block between two signals, as those are the areas where information can be sent to the trains inside them. Smaller areas than a track circuit lenght are not possible and therefore speed limits can´t be set at smaller distances than the lenght of those track circuits --> correct according to rules and according to the way game handles signals/routes at any route, because in game we also have those blocks/track circuits as signals sequence is defined as trains move and occupy/release those blocks or track circuits between signals, the same way as in a real interlocking case.

    TS2Prototype-Win64-Shipping 2021-05-15 04-10-04.png

    Once you are at Garden station ATC updates to 80. Reason: even if Floral exit was originally displaying stop aspect there´s an ATC update point available between Garden and Floral exit signal. Indeed there are several update points in the whole branch (in game most likely simulated by virtual track circuits containing each of the following stations platforms and using invisible signals). ATC can there and only there provide the first higher speed limit as when you released the first switch with rear of train head of train has already passed the dwarf signal as well (this is not meaning that you need to release the switch with the rear of train but that train is already inside a new track circuit and the old 15 limit is no longer mandatory, which happens to be at the same time the safe approach to protect a switch, as whole train lenght as already passed it). In addition to that ATC has at least one more update point available between current train position and the Floral platforms, so it could still protect your train setting a new 15 at that update point in the worst case of being the only update point availble/remaining before Floral and facing a train still standing just after Floral plaftorms signal when you arrived to that update point --> correct according to rules, correct according to video, correct according to game behaviour in rest of routes because this is still a regular signal sequence evolution to the eyes of game, even if to the eyes of player there are no more visible signals there.

    3.png

    If you still think I´m wrong, ATC is wrong or game is doing anything different to what ATC should do there I can´t do anything else to try to help :(

    Cheers
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2021
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  9. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    Wait a minute, how the hell did you get the ATC to show 80mph at Garden City? I've spent countless drives on it and it was always stuck at 15mph on Garden City and until you reached the baseball field to the right.

    I will go and give it a quick test run out of Hempstead then, because if this is something new, then I didn't know about it yet.
     
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  10. Richard CZE

    Richard CZE Well-Known Member

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    Thank you very much for the information about ATC. Finally, I understand the security system. Excellent reading.
     
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  11. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    Well I don't know how you got an 80 on the ATC at Garden City, as I just did a quick test run and it limited me to 15mph like it always did.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    And it only changes to a 70 when I'm already way past the station, near the baseball field, and wasted like a full minute like this.

    Oh and while I was at it, I also noticed that the stop marker for 6 cars at Garden City is floating in the air...
    [​IMG]
     
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  12. geloxo

    geloxo Well-Known Member

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    Check the Floral station signals for your driving direction. They are the key to understand all because the branch joins station before the Floral exit signals and there are no entry signals at the station for your driving direction. So you can't run into them at higher speeds if another train is approaching Floral or dispatcher booked a route on main line incompatible with Floral branch movements because during all that time there´s no protection after Floral exit if you override the exit signal by mistake. ATC can´t allow you to go faster, is that simple. ATC does not know about train positions. It can only see the signals and the routes involving those signals.

    Use the 8:10h service I used and go into map view. You will see that an AI train is still passing Floral when you are at the 15 limit area on the curve. After it clears the area you can get 80. This is not happening many blocks ahead of you, but just one which happens to be very long. The whole branch is just one block from the signal at the level crossing curve up to Floral exit signal, as I said yesterday and there's the misunderstanding. This is what for a real interlocking would be a route incompability situation. Game also needs AI to clear blocks, switches or signals in such situations where two trains are using the same field elements in their routes or if routes merge a at a location, before it can allow you a more favorable signaling condition involving those field elements, as it works the same way an interlocking works even if it´s still a simplified version of it.

    What it means in this case in game is that for the ATC to allow higher speeds in the branch nobody can be using the block after Floral exit signal and up to the next signal in that driving direction or until a new switch is found which is not locked by another AI train. And the next available signal after Floral is located at Bellerose which unfortunatelly is also an exit signal too. This means that to get something else than a stop at Floral no AI train can be located between Bellerose and Floral and no route arriving to Floral from the opposite direction can be booked by dispatcher for another AI train. This is not a bug but just how system is expected to work. The AI train that is producing the horrendous 15 at the curve and up to the baseball field is indeed one using the same route as you and switching tracks after Bellerose. Blame that train, not the poor DTG developers :D

    TS2Prototype-Win64-Shipping 2021-05-15 14-52-11.png

    TS2Prototype-Win64-Shipping 2021-05-15 14-57-50.png

    This is the constraint more or less in plain words and I pressume the real reason why they can´t increase traffic in game, as the real line uses blocks with exit signals only in many areas of the main line including that one. To solve it they would need to include more virtual signals in between to allow having shorter blocks which allow higher capacity and it seems that´s what DTG did as apparently there´s at least one ATC update at each station exit even if no signal exists there because you can see 15s at the scheduled stops. But they could probably not add too many extra virtual signals either as they may potencially affect the main signals aspects as the amount of signals may also change se displayed aspect sequence on them and potentially break the whole ATC logic. There must be something else in the ATC implentation that does not allow them to change things easily or go any further than that if they still want to keep consistency with other routes in the overall way game handles signal sequences, or maybe that it simply requires a lot of manual configuration for each signal. For instance in many routes you can see that the platform exit signal displays stop until you load passengers and then it clears. This is more or less what we see in LIRR as well. This allows shorter route booking for dispatcher and is a workaround to solve intense traffic situations instead of booking many miles away for a single train preventing others to use the switches ahead and so on. This is also used in real life while dispatching.

    PS: if you want to get the 80 at Garden just wait at those platforms after loading passengers. This is what I did yesterday to test ATC. You will see that as soon the AI clears the track after Bellerose signals change and you can see an 80 onboard, which means ATC worked well all the time and just followed the signal indications ahead of your train to replicate them as cab speeds. Before that you are still approaching to a stop or occupied block all the time, so higher speeds shouldn´t be allowed unless you passed any new ATC update point and the track conditions ahead of train allows ATC to give higher limits (this mainly means that no more switches are found in diverging positions ahead of you, which will not happen until you have arrived to Garden). Behaviour in the video is different because driver is not approaching an occupied block (he had a proceed at the level crossings signal if I´m not wrong and also didn´t find a stop at Floral), so driver can speed up more or less as soon as train has passed over the pair of switches as ATC finds no more constraints to apply ahead of train after that.

    Cheers
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2021
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  13. sinnere

    sinnere Active Member

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    *deleted*
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2021
  14. paul.pavlinovich

    paul.pavlinovich Well-Known Member

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    I've just driven LIRR end to end from Ronkonkoma to NY Penn as M3 then M7. The M3 is quite badly behaved insisting on ATC 15 in various places where the M7 does not.

    I'm going to record it sometime soon and post a bug about it after I've done another run to confirm it.

    solicitr I drive to the ATC and turn the HUD off. I find doing this seems to work fairly well. Speed limits do seem to be controlled by an evil wizard on this route if you use anything other than ATC so I agree with your magic speed limits comment :)
     
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  15. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    I don't understand you. You keep saying the ATC works just as expected, then go on for several paragraphs explaining why it doesn't work as it should.

    I mean when I'm still at Garden City, why the hell would my ATC care what is going on at Floral Park and Bellerose? When you're leaving Garden City, you are still several miles and TWO stations away from Floral Park. And while there are no visible signals on this section (I beleive), there are many ATC block points, which basically act (or should act) like invisible signals, just as you said. So what an another train is doing on the mainline around Floral Park and Bellerose shouldn't affect my allowed speed in Garden City at all. Especially when you're still on a separate track until Belmont or Queens Village and you only switch tracks and cross the mainline there.

    I mean come on, in real life at rush hour the trains on LIRR will often follow each other so closely that they are in line of sight to each other. You can see videos of it happening when there are 2 or 3 trains in line of sight on the same track, following each other in a convoy. The in game ATC and dispatcher simply couldn't do something like this. I mean tell me, when it even slows me down to 15mph because another train several miles and 3 stations away is on the track, then how can you say that it works as it should?

    I mean at this part you are specifically talking about what might be wrong with it, so then why are you defending it and say that it works? It clearly doesn't work like it does in real life and that's a fact. Everyone knows you, you say it as well and DTG admitted it as well. So what the hell are we talking about still?

    I mean sure, one can learn how it "works" in game and you can try hard to find a logic behind it and get used to it, but at the end it's bad, annoying and not prototypical. It's a mess that doesn't even allow the route to have the amount of traffic that the developers intented for it to have.
     
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  16. geloxo

    geloxo Well-Known Member

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    A block is the section of track between two signals, and that´s the Garden entry signal up to the Floral exit signal. There are no more blocks that that one in this section of the track. This is what interlocking can handle, as interlockings can only set routes from one signal to another signal (and game as well). ATC update points are virtual subdivisions of that block (normally using track circuits) to allow speed updates at more areas in between the two signals used to increase line capacity allowing trains to travel at every moment at the highest possible speed between signals for the given aspects. But ATC works on top of interlocking to provide speed limits to trains. ATC can´t set routes for trains.

    I think the real problem in LIRR is not that the ATC is buggy but that do to the nature of the branch itself, just having 2 physical signals for the whole branch and game working by setting routes from one signal to another signal, DTG had to add virtual signals (invisible in game, not existing in real life at all) to try to generate some kind of artificial "virtual proceed aspects" in the branch to deal with that limitation and those virtual signals are the ones which are simulating the real ATC update points at the same time. If not you would have no signals for the stations in the branch and in many cases no entry signals at stations, just exit signals like in Floral, which would be a problem for game dispatcher as it would require very long routes booked to exit the branch to be able to result in a proceed for the trains driving in the Garden area (as a minimum you need two physical signals before a stop signal to generate a proceed in the best case). That would eventually even result in the Floral and Bellerose blocks being locked by the route set for your train and preventing other trains that may be trying to use the main line at the same time of you to move, resulting in bottlenecks created many miles away from trains.

    I can´t open the route to see its contents but at least they added some of those virtual signals near the branch stations and that´s why you see the "baseball field" effect, as you can´t update ATC speed until either you reach those ATC update points or the main signal ahead of you changes its aspect. As Floral signal is most of the time displaying stop there must be some of those invisible signals in between to generate the proceeds, as in game the proceeds are just the result of a regular sequence of signals. One of those update points/virtual signals is at the baseball field for sure. In addition to that it also seems they may be using those virtual signals to generate the scheduled stops at each of the stations in the timetable for both AI trains or player services, and I think that´s the real reason why you have the 15 at the curve, not because of the diverging switch, even if the latest could be also a valid situation for the real ATC. So after the switch you have a scheduled stop at Garden and therefore a virtual stop aspect, and ATC has to provide that 15 just after the signal at the curve. Honestly at this point I don´t really care about which is the real reason behind this effect as I´m not a beta tester not the route designer.

    You can go into scenario designer and create a trip from Hempstead to Atlantic or Floral with no scheduled stops in between, which would be very similar to the video you posted as the signal in the curve will not give an approach aspect as in the case of the services in game. This case is how dispatching would be done in real life as driver will just execute the scheduled stops on its own. You will see that as soon as you have such a long route set for your train covering the whole branch you have no 15s and no baseball field effect, which means that ATC logic works well also in that case.

    1.png

    2.png

    3.png

    In my opinion ATC works as expected in any of those scenarios we are discussing because it´s still consistent with the signals all the time, both for a longer exit route set up to Floral with no scheduled stops and both for the case of shorter routes involving the scheduled stops generated by the timetable. For sure they may be errors at some particular signals as we see in other routes, but it still works according to the principles of the real ATC. Maybe this is just a game limitation we have to live with as those artificial stops are still needed by the AI to execute the timetable, I don´t know. Real interlockings and control centers have many other tools in their logic to deal with such situations that game does not implement, and we can´t pretent that it implements. For the purpose of simulation it works pretty well indeed taking into account the complexity of the original system. Can it be improved? Sure. Will it be improved? I don´t think so. You could expect some fixes but that´s all.

    Cheers
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2021
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  17. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    The nyc subway does have properly placed speed limit boards on all its lines all over the lines
     
  18. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    As you said, LIRR has very few physical signals along the lines. Why? Exactly because the ATC takes care of the rest - just like how certain busy rail lines, like the Yamanote Line in Tokyo, will have no real signals at all, because everything is controlled by ATC.

    From what I can see, the physical signals on LIRR are mainly needed only at places where there are switches and crossovers, on straight sections you will barely pass by any real signals - unlike GWE for example, where you pass one like every minute to allow busy traffic.

    As you said as well, the game implements these ATC blocks by using invisible virtual signals. You can cleary see it by playing with the next signal display turned on on the HUD, then you can see that the game will keep showing you passing plenty of invisible signals.

    Again, the reason I strongly disagree with your here because from what I know, the ATC at Garden City shouldn't care what the signal is showing after Floral Park, several miles away. I mean there will be countless ATC blocks until then, so why would I already need to slow down to 15MPH at Garden City? That's what the ATC blocks are for to begin with - to keep be going and then tell me to slow down only when needed. If the ATC would keep slowing trains down to 15MPH just because there are other trains several miles ahead of them, then LIRR simply couldn't be the busy railway it is in real life.

    I mean to stay on the Garden City 15mph topic, imagine it in real life. The mainline at Floral Park is full of traffic. So following your logic, the trains leaving Garden City would never be allowed to accelerate and they would crawl from Garden City to Floral Park with 15mph all the way, as there would barely be any "free time" when there is nothing at Floral Park. It would be pretty silly, wouldn't it?

    And again, I mean you can keep defending the system, but when even the developers themselves say that it is faulty and restricts them from giving LIRR a proper busy timetable, then why are you still bothering?
     
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  19. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    The AI in the route doesn't follow the atc signal speed. They follow the track speed so you'll have an ai train going faster than what the player would do if they had atc on
     
  20. geloxo

    geloxo Well-Known Member

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    You will never have a signalling logic that costs thousands of dollars in development in the real case implemented for 30$ in game. That´s all I can say in plain words. If you still want more better ask Matt guys :D

    For me, and that´s just my own opinion, it´s sufficient to simulate the ATC behaviour taking into account the possibilities they have available in game to implement it, and it´s also consistent with the official LIRR rules as far as I saw (this is not meaning perfect, but just consistent). I insisted on this topic because I like signalling systems as I work with them and that´s why I know how hard to replicate they are.

    I never intended to defend nor blame anybody with my posts but I´m also practical about what we can expect and tried also to be fair with DTG, because despite any possible bugs that may exist in this route there has been always a lot of confussion among players as well about how to drive using ATC, and that´s also what I tried to clarify.

    Game will never work as a real CBTC, ERTMS or LZB works. Just the logic for the display of an onboard ERTMS cost much more than the selling price of all DLCs together, and that´s only a display not even the complete onboard equipment or the interlocking, RBC and control center logic this system needs to work, so imagine... This ATC, even being one of the simplest in terms of functionality as it just provides speeds, is still very hard to replicate in game.

    Cheers
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2021
  21. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    Well interestingly they can replicate the other ATC systems from other countries on other routes, and so could pretty much every other train simulator ever. Flight simulators also can simualte flight control systems, and I bet those aren't cheap and simple either. So sorry, but this is nothing more than a cheap excuse.

    And so you do agree that it doesn't work like it should / as it does in real life. Look, if you're fine with that, cool, I won't blame you. You try to explain to people how it works currently in the game, nothing wrong with that, I actually respect that you try to help people.

    But sadly the system isn't working good enough and prototypically, or as the developers intented it to do so, which not only generates player confusion, but also significantly lowers the quality of a route which otherwise would have great potential. It's advertised as "one of America's busiest railroads", yet it's one of the most lifeless routes in the game. They've already tried to give it a better timetable like more than a year ago, but couldn't due to the ATC not working properly. Sadly it still didn't get fixed this time around, so it stays like this for now.
     
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  22. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    The MTA Long Island Railroad is indeed the busiest commuter railroad in the United States. The Second is New Jersey Transit and the third is the MTA Metro-North Railroad. If you think about TSW 2 rush hour in terms of U.S commuter rail, an ideal route to do rush hour would be... The MTA Long Island Railroad which is already in tsw2. Heck there are more MTA Long Island Railroad trains at Penn Station at any time of day compared to Amtrak trains in real life which include Amtrak Northeast Corridor trains

    Unfortunately this route came out in late 2018 for TSW (The Budd M3 EMU came out in May 2020. Jeez time flies) and it's pretty clear that the ATC signaling system was not modelled accurately or as intended hence the lack of services. I've seen a review of this route in steam and a person said LIRR makes Train Sim World feel like Track Sim World since the route is pretty dead of people and trains. I think what would've been a good idea was for dtg to remodel the atc system when TSW2020 came out since LIRR was a base route to TSW2020 to get more services for the route at the time. Sure it probably would have been a ton of work, but the end product would be higher satisfaction from players who wanted to see more services on this route. Even then though two branch lines wouldn't fully capture the hustle and bustle of the railroad in full even with extra services the possibility is there for DTG to make more branches (lines) for the Long Island Railroad. In game there are three out of 10 total branches (lines) in the railroad im reality. Those being the Ronkonkoma Branch, Hempstead Branch and the Port Washington Branch. Belmont Park services are a branch of the Hempstead Branch. The Port Washington Branch is that shuttle service from Woodside to Penn Station. In reality it would go to from penn station to Port Washington. The other 7 lines are The Montauk Branch, The West Hempstead Branch, Babylon Branch, Oyster Bay Branch, Far Rockaway Branch, Long Beach Branch and the Port Jefferson Branch. The trains that run on this railroad are the Budd M3 EMU (which is close to fully retiring and being fully replaced) the Bombardier M7 EMU, The Kawasaki M9 EMU (M9s are replacing the M3s) The EMD DE30AC and DM30AC which runs on lines that are not fully electrified along with their Kawasaki C3 bi-level cab car/coaches, and the EMD MP15AC which is used for freight, maintance and moving trains that may have broken down as well as shunting along the railroad

    This update just seems to have made the ATC system worse by throwing random lower speed changes when there isn't a train ahead for miles. I appreciate geloxo explaining to players how it works but the fact of the matter is that the system behavior is worse before the update and the system as a whole doesn't work properly.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2021
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  23. geloxo

    geloxo Well-Known Member

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    I don´t work for DTG nor I can fix LIRR even if I wanted :( But I presume this route will stay as it is, because I reported myself several errors as well which are still not solved and were easier to fix than the ATC, like removing the phantom signals at Penn which are displaying all aspects at once. We have also floating boards, floating signals even moved sideways of the track, etc. My last hope about LIRR is that after having ACSES available in game comming with the release of ASC-64 locomotive they include it in LIRR the same way they added LZB for BR182.

    About the marketing approach and the overall quality/situation I have my own opinion which most of you already know. I stopped reporting bugs like two months ago and I will not buy more DLCs until we have steam content in game and the Unreal core update, to see where we are going to after that. The latest releases are going in a direction that I don´t like at all with the amount of new errors increasing exponentially, including new errors in the preserved collection introduced after patching like the gauges light in BR182, while the ancient bugs still remain unsolved. Unless I could get some in any of the big sales I doubt I will invest more in this game for several months. As money is the only language that matters for marketing I will also use the money language myself.

    Cheers
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2021
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  24. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    Don't get us wrong dude, no one expects that from you, lol. I just didn't understand why you insisted on saying the ATC is fine when sadly there obviously are problems with it.

    I still have hope that one day it will be fixed. I mean they have to, if they ever want to get more money out of LIRR (with maybe an add-on with the diesel/hybrid trains or something). But I'm afraid that will not be soon, considering the preservation team has already moved on to other routes. My best hope is that along with the new NEC route for Rush Hour, maybe they touch up LIRR's ATC as well, as they have some similarities. Or maybe they could even add ACSES to LIRR, but I doubt they would do that.

    Anyway I'm really interested in tuesday's livestream, looking forward to see what they have to say about this whole update. From what Sam has said, it's clear that they too know that many things are wrong.
     
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  25. tmhk#7010

    tmhk#7010 New Member

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    Unfortunately, in 2023 they have not fixed it.
     
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  26. gogglesguy

    gogglesguy Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, if you're still crossing your fingers for a fix, you may want to untangle them.
     

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