Armstrong Powerhouse

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by friskey.marcedes, May 20, 2021.

  1. friskey.marcedes

    friskey.marcedes Active Member

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    With so many excellent DLCs on Ts1 I wondered why AP have not got involved with TSW2 so I contacted them and this is what they said.
    They said DTG don't allow third parties like them to create additional content the same way as they did for TS1 which seems to go against the DTG mantra of welcoming 3rd party contributions. To be fair thay also said that this wasn't the only reason.
    Seems a real shame as AP innovation in TS1 adds good content - like their weather mod,etc. Could some community pressure get them to reconsider and DTG to be more open to 3rd parties like them?
     
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  2. Coastway trainspotter

    Coastway trainspotter Well-Known Member

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    Maybe . Not sure how the community could convince them though . It’s up to DTG
     
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  3. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Well other 3rd party developers seem to be developing stock and routes. I am sure if AP wanted to build a train suitable for a TSW route they could! I can't see why DTG would want to stop them?
     
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  4. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    From the simple wording above it appears that they would want to develop or sell their products in a different way than is allowed by DTG for TSW. If the two things don’t match up then there is no point trying to get them to match by us suggesting either party change their rules or methods. Just because AP make some premium products for TS doesn’t give us the right to pester them to entice them into making TSW content, or to try and make DTG give AP special privileges to do things their own way. If there are other reasons too then it would be a nonstarter, even if we could.
     
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  5. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    All TSW stuff is sold through Steam, Microsoft or PS stores. As AP only sell via their own website, I believe this will be where the issue will be between AP and DTG.

    DTG want full control over content for TSW, whereas the editor on TS allows "proper" third party contributions but relieves DTG of the income made from it, as other companies can sell via their own websites under their own terms and conditions.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2021
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  6. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I believe the salient point is "as they did for TS1", so in TSW DTG specify that things have to be fully licensed, compatible with consoles and available via the PS and Xbox stores. So this is different to TS1 where AP can sell their own stuff through their own store and also ensure when they update their own scenarios that their own DLC are required for them (breaking the scenario for anyone who updates)

    So it sounds to me like DTG want to play by all the rules and make sure things work for years to come, and AP have shown they don't care for the latter at all
     
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  7. Matthew Wilson

    Matthew Wilson Well-Known Member

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    I'm pretty sure a lot of the audio for the UK DLCs have audio recorded by and maybe tweaked by AP. Stuff like the Class 33 and Class 52 are dead giveaways as being the same source files.
     
  8. 59321747

    59321747 Well-Known Member

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    The pressure of the community will not make DTG give up, the only way is to have a good competitor.
     
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  9. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    I don't think it's got anything to do with playing by the rules, because it's DTG that are making the rules.

    If TSW and TS were cars, the only spares you could get for TSW would be directly from the manufacturer and you would have to put up whatever quality they are producing.

    In the case of TS, the you could get pattern parts from the likes of Halfords or Euro Car Parts which are sometimes of equal if not better quality. Sometimes of poorer quality. But you pays your money and takes your chances.

    The current model that DTG are operating for TSW means that they get a cut of the profits for anything released as opposed to with TS where I would guess a large proportion of what is spent goes to third parties and DTG sees nothing.

    Basically, in my opinion, DTG are keeping a total monopoly over the content that is available for TSW.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2021
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  10. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Yes, which is different to what happens in TS1. What is that AP are not willing to do that would mean they could make content?
    It strikes me as odd that people keep making this all about DTG, when there's very much a path (however difficult) that people can take
     
  11. wombleway

    wombleway Well-Known Member

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    And why shouldn't they? It's their product, after all. Nobody is forcing anyone else to play the game, if you don't agree with the business model then you don't have to purchase the product. Likewise, if a third party developer doesn't agree with the requirements put in place by the owner of the base game, then they don't have to release applications for it if they don't want to.

    I play Farm Sim quite a bit, and while mods are allowed, the software company decides what gets released for consoles because they have to maintain some semblance of quality control (there's also a restriction placed upon them by Microsoft and Sony when it comes to third party applications, as well) - PC is different because of the software access granted to the user because of its nature, but if it's a free for all, with things being released left, right, and centre, when things start going wrong the customer will, naturally, complain to the most obvious target, whether it's their fault or not - in this case, DTG.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2021
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  12. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    Oh here we go with the "If you don't like it don't buy it!" Wondered how long before that retort reared it's head.

    The part of my reply you quoted wasn't a criticism, just an opinion on how DTG are treating the two products differently. It's entirely up to them how they conduct their business.
     
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  13. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    This is about DTG. They have chosen to make the procedure for others to get "officially" involved in producing content for TSW more difficult than what it is for TS ensuring that they get a cut of anything that is produced.
     
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  14. bakedpotatos.jm

    bakedpotatos.jm Well-Known Member

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    TSW is a different marketing beast than TS1. In order for them to get licenses for official stock there were certain criteria the companies have mandated DTG to follow.

    So they have to have more rules as they are taking more risk for lawsuits. And I wouldn't be surprised if one of those conditions is that DTG must own and sell all DLC exclusively so they must be able license and aquire exclusive rights to 3rd party add ons.

    Unfortunately this is how business is run when you want to do something 100% official.
     
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  15. nockwurst

    nockwurst Well-Known Member

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    Great comparison. I sim farm a lot as well, and Giant does a great job involving the modders, but keeps a tight leash on what is released. FS 19 had some issues on release, thanks to the paid DLC, and the free mods, they did a phenomenal job of making the game one of the best sims out there.
     
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  16. wombleway

    wombleway Well-Known Member

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    Sounds like criticism to me. They're not perfect by any means and I'm sure they'd agree, but I think they do a pretty good job in the circumstances.

    Given that third parties (Rivet, for example) are producing content for TSW2, clearly the decision is with the third party developer as to whether they want to get involved or not. DTG would most likely handle things like marketing and advertising of the new content (live streams, etc), so that's a cost that the developer wouldn't have to cover.
     
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  17. wombleway

    wombleway Well-Known Member

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    I think it started about here...

     
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  18. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    DTG aren't taking any risk so long as THEY keep to the licence requirements. As far as I'm aware they can't be held responsible for what others produce. If third parties decide to produce branded liveries or other items that are subject to copyright and licencing restrictions, it's down to the owners of those copyrights to pursue the people responsible. Otherwise there would be no livery editor or whatever it's called in TSW if DTG could be held responsible for what you as a user produced.

    There will be restriction on the use of liveries and branding and also I assume there will be a "no crash" clause. That's why you never see damaged trains because the companies don't wan images, albeit computer game images, of their damaged trains all over the internet.
     
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  19. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    Totally quoted out of context.

    That was part of a quote about buying pattern car parts from a third party. Does everyone buy all their car parts from the manufacturer of their chosen car? I doubt it very much.

    Competition is healthy, it keeps developers on their toes, forcing them to produce a better product than their competitors. If they don't they they fail and go bust.

    In the case of a monopoly, the developers can "drop the ball" and there's no real pressure for them to learn to catch so long as they can maintain that monopoly!
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2021
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  20. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    But they may well have a responsibility for what they publish and given they have to be the people who publish on console...
     
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  21. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    I think we're arguing the same point here.

    AP, ATS, Just Trains and numerous others probably won't get involved because DTG have chosen to go down the console route with TSW and as a result the "rules" that DTG are imposing on prospective third parties, are the rules or terms and conditions they are having imposed on them by Sony and Microsoft. Which I would think means that those third parties would have to give up some of their creative and ownership rights because everything they produced would have to be agreed by DTG.
     
  22. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    No, you seem, to be saying "DTG bad..."

    Whereas I'm saying that DTG as publisher of the software on multiple platforms and having specific agreements with train operators probably HAVE to limit the way that they and others who they publish create, publicise and use the intellectual property of the train manufacturers, owners and operators

    If
    make their own choices not to work within the framework laid down by the above named, as well as Sony and Microsoft that's on them, NOT DTG
    So say that

    As DTG have said (numerous times), they would love to have third parties making content based on their platforms, their routes, their assets... But given the limitations that they themselves are under (self imposed but also by the above named) this isn't possible except without restrictions on freedom of content.

    And to be fair AP and ATS aren't exactly bastions of fairness and exactitude anyway
    With ATS you get loads of requirements and missing signalling, and AP would break your achievements next time they bring out a pack they want to force you to buy to play any scenarios. Personally I don't feel their loss within the TSW realm
     
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  23. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    At no point have I said DTG are bad (well not in this thread), that's purely your interpretation of my posts.
     
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  24. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Kind of did there
    From what I can gather from various streams there is pressure on DTG from the IP holders as well as from Consoles etc, and this IS a console based post...
    I think PC players have just had it too easy over the decades and want their cake now
     
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  25. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    No, purely stating that the rules DTG are imposing on third parties are possibly the same "rules" that DTG are being subjected to by Sony and Microsoft.

    The PC is just a far more flexible platform when it comes to content. Consoles have the advantage for developers that every machine is fairly standard with the same specifications, but the end user loses the freedom and flexibility of the PC.
     
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  26. DTG Matt

    DTG Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

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    Just to cut through some of the "words" going on here - I believe what AP are referring to is that their plan is primarily about making sound packs and enhancement packs. They essentially sell mods and upgrades to existing content. They do also sell some locomotives and even a route they made too (Wherry), but their primary developments have been around sound and enhancement packs.

    This is where the problem is - making such packs and distributing them via steam / consoles etc is not really viable - AP and others like them rely on the ability to write their own installers, change anything they wish and put in their upgrades etc - which works fantastically well in TS2021 but just wouldn't work at all in a UE4 based environment, compounded then by the way TSW is developed and further by how it is distributed.

    If AP at some point decide they want to produce one of their amazing train packs for TSW then that will be awesome and work very well with how things work - but commercial mods really don't.

    In the mean time however, AP *do* work extensively with us on TSW to provide us with sound sources (such as the excellent ones on the 465) so while they aren't focusing on TSW at this point in time, they ARE still working to get you their sounds - which is awesome, yes?

    Matt.
     
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  27. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Yes. Another significant reason is that TSW is much, much harder to program for, and they are making a big pile of money developing for TS, so why change?
     
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  28. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    I have no idea what the evidence is on which you would base such a conclusion.
     
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  29. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    My opinion is based on the fact that anyone who wants to produce content for TSW has to go through the DTG application and approval process in order to get access to the necessary tools as there is no freely available editor.

    Because the editor for TS was made available, anyone with the skills and inclination could produce content. If they chose to sell that content and it breached any proprietary content, then they could find themselves personally liable.

    If the TSW editor had been made freely available, the process would have been easier.

    This is in no means a criticism of what DTG have chosen to do, purely my thoughts in response to the OP's question about why AP and the like aren't producing content for TSW like they do for TS.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2021
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  30. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    ALL TSW non-PC content has to be published via the Playstation or Microsoft stores. Ergo, it has to jump through all their hoops: indy add-ons peddled through one's own website are not going to get by the inevitable Cease and Desist letters. This has nothing to do with DTG 'monopolizing' the market (Oh, horrors! Every other game developer lets anyone who likes make DLC for their games, right?), and everything to do with the legal regime imposed by consoles.
     
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  31. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    How would this have been easier for Xbox and PS players?
     
  32. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    As we all know DTG are committed to keeping TSW multi platform and equal across all those platforms, so as I said, IF the editor had been freely available, everyone would have been able to create content.
     
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  33. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    But only those who play on PC would be able to get hold of them, except through DTG, so I think you're missing the point
     
  34. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    You are assuming any editor would only have been available for PC? But as there's never going to be one only those in the know will ever know and they're never going to let us know!
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2021
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  35. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Because that's been stated. There is also currently no path except through DTG to publish any content to console
    So either people join the third party dev program or they don't, and that's their choice
     
  36. volvolover1972

    volvolover1972 Well-Known Member

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    The alternative is that platforms are not equal in content. People are gonna get mad at me for stating this in the xbox sub forum, but many other developers allow this; Have an editor available for PC players and allow content to be distributed freely outside of the developer's control for PC. Consoles will get content only if the third party dev wants to go through DTG. Paradox Interactive do this with Cities Skylines and Microsoft Flight Simulator will do this once it releases for consoles.
     
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  37. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    The platforms can never be totally equal. But without the PC there wouldn't be any console games.

    But I'm sure someone will be along soon to tell me they can code with 2 joysticks, 2 triggers, 8 buttons and a D pad.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2021
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  38. friskey.marcedes

    friskey.marcedes Active Member

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    Very helpful Matt - apologies for creating the wormhole in the first place. Let's hope AP can be encouraged to do more TSW2 related in the future. Can they be commissioned to do the weather....
     
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  39. Matthew Wilson

    Matthew Wilson Well-Known Member

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    And right here is where we basically get the rub of it all with TSW.

    There was a point where there was a choice between longevity, community involvement, modding etc and console sales - it's very obvious what won and its very obvious at what cost. I'm not telling everyone what they should think about TSW, but this is why I haven't touched TSW2 since a 5 minute drive on Bakerloo. It is sterile, vapid and in the case of an underground route running next to one of the busiest Mainlines in the country, lifeless.

    It'll never be for me, which is a shame with the enhanced graphics and physics etc, I've tried to love it but it's nothing more than a toy that I don't want or need. The release of more routes and maybe more trains with them isn't going to change that anytime soon.
     
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  40. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    There is no way to share files on console. So a console editor would be useless, except for private lulz.
     
  41. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    That is true unless dtg made a way to share content in tsw2 for consoles. Other games have that. The fact that players still can't share scenarios they made is quite puzzling
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2021
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  42. KoeleKoen

    KoeleKoen Well-Known Member

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    I believe snowrunner has crossplatform mods enabled, different engine than unreal though... I think?
     
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  43. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Snowrunner uses the swarm engine
     
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