Train Sim World 2 - Cathcart Commuter

After buying SEHS day 1, that's when my mindset on buying dlc's when they released changed. Since some aspects of that route were clearly rushed, I made a decision to not buy dlc's that clearly have clear as day issues at launch. I also never pre order anything for any game because I know it gives companies an incentive to release the product as is regardless of outstanding issues and they will still get an early profit which isn't fair to customers. Cyberpunk 2077 is a prime example of how a mess of a game can be released. My girfriend pre ordered the game and was pissed when she started playing it for the first time. To be fair the only dlc's I got on day 1 was the LIRR M3, HMA and SEHS. I bought East Coastway when it was on sale in April 2020 I believe as well as rro fo tsw2020 in that same month because both routes were on sale and I only got into tsw in march last year.

 

Every single pre-order creates a customer that is fully expecting the product to be delivered on a certain date (with no flexibility)...... ready or not - it fuels a last minute crunch, and that is when really big mistakes can occur.

It's even more serious than that. Every single pre-order is a step towards the projected sales target for the product, and takes the product another step closer to an absolute end of development (although DTG's Preservation team have been active in doing a clean-up on fairly recent routes, like Bakerloo).

It is of course great to effectively pre-order, through early access, when you are supporting a new small independent team, with a new product in development. And it is also good to support more established developers (like DTG) by buying their products on release at full price - but only if they have been proven to be reasonably functional at release.

DTG is a company that has enough cash in reserves to release fully working products (and certainly, at least, fully working with respect to the key features, and the first few hours of play).

 

This I think is one of the best routes that DTG has done, the detail is stunning, and the reflections in the rain look awesome, a busy route and one that keeps you on your toes. This does look pretty awesome and with AP sounds, its looks a winner. Im just wondering how long it will be before someone does a Tartan livery for the 314.

 

The thing is, we hear that too, as with the SD40 horn in Clinchfield- but it never gets fixed.

 

Well, as you know, that's not the only example in that route and others. Broken promises, the patronizing attitude I took from the last stream, as in "we're not making any promises", have caused me to take a wait and see approach to new releases from now on. Minor and cosmetic mistakes I can deal with, but I'll let the first day buyers find the major problems and go from there.

 

Hmm, what was the point of the white part over the drivers cab. I noticed there are 2 destination boards, one on the left and on the right. But I always see the one above the drivers position never used or maybe they used to be used but are scrapped now?

This interests me.

 

In BR days it used to state the via points, however this is now discontinued hence why it is blank.

 

The one above the driver's position was once in use, although it's difficult to find modern examples so it seems it was out of use long before the 314s found a regular home on the Cathcart Circle.

It was something like a 'go via' board, so if the left hand side destination board said "Glasgow Central", the one on the right would say "via xxx", but I can't find any post-privatisation examples. In the image below you can see it is giving a range of stations that the service to Dumbarton Central is going via.



I assume, given the range of options available, and the fact the 314 was moved about a bit, it was quietly dumped rather than have a new scroll created every time the train was used on a new line.

Interestingly, it seems all the variations of this train (314, 315, 508) had the space for two boards, though similarly none seem to have been in use for very long. below is an example of a 508 in London, although for some reason they are confusingly the other way around.

 

i was a bit reluctant to buy this route, but when I saw the diesel rail tour layers, I hit the buy button.
The second reason was the Scottish accent announcements,

 

That is a very nice touch. Someone in the development team had imagination.

 

I’m not bashing DTG here but that’s not imagination, that should be standard. I wouldn’t expect to hear an English accent on the tannoy system if I was travelling out of Glasgow Central.

 

Fair enough, but it was thought significant enough to be specifically mentioned on the stream. Let's just say somebody got it right.

 

Not just that but it really sounds like the Central Station announcements as well.

 

I think that's what makes it special. The announcements on all the other modern British routes sound nothing like real life. The ones we heard on Cathcart actually sound authentic, to the point where I'm 90% certain it's the same voice used for IRL Scotrail announcements. It's a big step forward for improving immersion imo.

 

It may be the case that Scotrail retained the copyrights in the announcement recordings as works-for-hire and therefore was able to license them to DTG, unlike the legal situation with London Underground etc.

 

I think it's just because ScotRail were as open as possible to Dovetail. They always have been. Scotrail are always happy to do behind the scenes and other things like that. So I feel that Scottish Routes like such are likely to be some of the - if not the - most realistic and immersive routes in the game.

 

Thank you both for the well said and detailed explanations. It's so interesting seeing these trains with something that was sort of unique having these "Go via" destination boards. But I can see why they might have scrapped this destination board. I think it was a cool idea, but with rollsigns this must have been a pain if the entire fleet kept moving around the system, to change the rollsigns.

I would presume the Class 313 has this same scrapped "go via" board above the drivers position, considering it is the earliest version of this family of trains made way back in 1976-77

Interestingly the NYCTA had a few trains that went through the refurbishment program of which the rollsigns on the older trains were filled in with metal. But clearly one can see there was rollsigns on these trains. I am referring to the NYC Subway R32 and R38 cars, built in 1964 and 1966 respectively. Take a look below of the R32GE rebuilt cars that lost their front mylar rollsigns and the R38 cars after their overhauls in 1988-91

Top: a post-rebuilt R38 pair on the Q line. Notice the coverings over the former front rollsigns and the distinctive Exp and Local marker lights.
Bottom: a pre-rebuilt R38 pair on the Q line. Notice it has it's original front rollsigns.

Top: a train of pre-rebuilt R32 cars on the J line.
Bottom: a pair of post-rebuilt R32GE cars on the R line. The R32 was split into 3 rebuilt orders, R32 I, R32GE and R32 II. Note this R32GE car type class only consisted of 10 cars rebuilt by GE. They are unique and to date only 2 cars survive. Also note the former mylar rollsigns and distinctive Exp and Local marker lights filled in. These R32 train cars in general are the longest modern R-type cars in the system, with a total of 56 years in service on the NYCTA, they were even built before the merger of the NYCTA in 1968.
Credits go to their respective owners.

Interestingly back to the topic at hand, I think the Class 313s are now the oldest revenue-operating trains on National Rail in Britain, since the old 1938 Tube stock or Class 483 is out of service.

 

One thing is for sure, we won't find out in this DLC what it's like to drive a train on a busy commuter network, because apart from a few Cathcart Circle Line trains, Glasgow Central Station and and all the tracks across the region seem to be completely empty.

It's as if someone released FIFA21 with only two teams. Technically, such FIFA21 could be playable, but with two teams there is no world championship. And with one train there is no rail network in Glasgow.

Of course, probably no one would buy such a FIFA21 (especially if the rest of the teams had to be purchased in separate DLCs for € 30.00 each), but railway enthusiasts will surely buy everything.

I wish you a lot of fun

And let me ask again: what is the point of making such a busy and diverse railway network for TSW2, since it is known that only one train will be reproduced in game? In TSW we always get some sad caricature of a busy railway network! Maybe you should respect some technical and economic limitations in DTG and focus on routes that you can faithfully reproduce in TSW2.

 

Very helpful indeed when I was watching the stream I heard Matt talk about making the destination panel to work

 

Well, in all honesty, this route took a couple of steps backward for me in today's stream. I don't know if it was the gray skybox, the dull lighting or just the plain emptiness of the whole panorama, but I couldn't work up any excitement for the train or the route itself. Certainly it was a mistake to stream it from the older hardware. I realize that lots of people will play this dlc on PS4 and older Xbox consoles, but it didn't show the route in the best light (pun intended). Surely, one of the purposes of a preview stream is to make a sales pitch. They should have shown the route in darkness and in snow or rain. And why not show off the dynamic weather? I'll wait to see what the early adopters have to say about it, but without at least one more train set, I'll likely skip it or at least wait for a sale. I'm somewhat mystified as to why they didn't add another train, as they have on almost all the other releases. What a difference it would have made to the look and feel, not to mention the gameplay.

 

Matt said out side of senarios theres no 6 car services but what about senario planner is there a 6 or perhaps 9 car option there?

 

I understand your point but console gamers also deserve to see DTG streams running on their platforms. I remember they didn't before and were criticised for it, so I don't think it's fair to criticise them now for the opposite.
Sure, it looks better on high-end PCs, but those who have to make do with inferior hardware want to see the real thing so it's good that they show it as is.
Would it sell more on console if it was only shown on PC? I don't think so, and if it did it would be distorting reality, which might make some people feel cheated.
Would it sell more on PC if it wasn't shown on console? I don't think so because for that there are also streams where your users can check how it looks on PC.
Anyway, if someone thinks that they have seen too little and are missing information, nowadays there are fortunately streams right on launch day or recordings within a few hours for al platforms.

 

In principle I agree with you. I've said many times on the forums that, since the vast majority of console players have older hardware, they are fully entitled to parity with PC and next gen players. But I disagree with the notion that streaming on a high end PC would dissuade anyone from buying. Making the product look as good as it possibly can is the right sales approach for all platforms, in my opinion. Actually, though, streaming on a high end PC would not disguise the poor lighting and lack of AI traffic, which, as of now, are the major problems. The sound has improved, I'll give you that, but whether that's enough is a maybe.

 

I really dislike the trend of "there wasn't enough time for ___". It was the Dostos on HHL, the cab car for the BR101, now a second unit for GCC. Why were all these things possible before (e.g. GWE, the Baby bullet DLC)? I know every project is different, but I would like to understand these decisions. Does it come down to a simple understaffing problem in the train creation department (engineers, art work,....)?

 

It could be understaffing but it could also be having to make a decision between getting it out in this window rather than that window and having to remove something to hit that first target.

We should all know by now that we're not going to get a perfect route in TSW and until we see more 3rd parties helping out then DTG will push themselves to hit more frequent release, regardless of what should be in it. If DTG are happy it included/exclude x, y & z then it'll be released no matter what.

 

Well considering the majority of people buying the content are on that hardware, I’d say it was just fine in terms of a sales pitch.

What I will say is that I don’t remember the game looking so bad when I played on PS4, but that’s probably because I haven’t done so in almost a year. I don’t see how the ballast can mysteriously change colours between 2 different platforms though.

If the builds are the same then I don’t see an issue with showing it off on pre release streams across different hardware, but when things change significantly, they should show the builds on the same hardware, that way we all get a baseline to look at.

At the end of the day however, DTG’s trailers and PC streams don’t give the majority of the playerbase a realistic expectation for what they will receive, so they do need to drastically increase how much console footage we see.

 

I can imagine between the usual DLC, Rush Hour and steam, that their resources are pretty stretched out at the moment.

That isn’t however a good enough reason to be delivering reduced levels of work put into full priced content, personally I prefer smaller consists for multiple units anyway, so for me this is a benefit more than anything, but I do agree the reasoning behind a lot of these development decisions is very weak.

 

I agree and after watching the second preview stream, I have decided that I will not buy this route for now. I have spent the money I was gonna use to buy the route on Assetto Corsa Competizione Season Pass which has the GT4 dlc, British GT Pack and the 2020 GT World Challenge pack which was $24.99. ACC is also a game that has way better nighttime lighting than the 314 and I am having alot of fun with the pack. The route itself isn't iconic or exciting. It was an unknown circle line before it was announced and a route that wasn't suggested on the forums. It isn't a fife circle line or the London Underground Circle line which are routes that I would gladly spend $30 on. It coming with one train as well doesn't make me want to spend $30 on a short route. The 314 offers no variety on a route that isn't very special and will get me bored quickly. Most of the scenarios are just in bad weather which can be easily be done in the timetable which effectively makes them pointless.

I honestly think the excuses of not adding extra trains are weak. DTG are the ones who set times on when a product has to be released. During tsw2020 you would get multiple trains on a route but ever since the the 101 was announced, dtg just keeps giving smaller content for routes. Why couldn't additional time be had for the 101 cab car which is part of the ic 101 fleet of trains? DTG could easily add more time to make extra trains for a route like they did with tsw2020 and if they did that I am certain it would generate more sales. A class 380 probably would have made me get this route. The community isn't the one setting limits on how long something must be developed so why are they adding less and less content and recycling content for routes. Yes every project is different but they have shown in the past that they could add additional trains so why not now. I hope after rush hour releases dtg finally start adding more content to routes they make if multiple trains run on said route in real life because adding less content will affect sales

 

IMHO this route should have more rolling stock to really feel alive. I know there is still a chance of getting it in the following months / years, but DTG should have had something in planning to release sooner.

 

From the recent streams it sounds a bit like they check how well routes sell, and based on that decide where to add loco DLCs. Kind of makes sense, better selling routes mean more potential customers for a loco DLC, so I guess if and what DLC a route gets depends a bit on the sales, i.e. GCC will need to wait a while to see how well it goes. I guess HHL will never get a loco DLC by that logic

 

You’ve said in other threads, that you won’t buy TSW2 DLC on day 1 anyway, so not sure what difference this makes?

You mean the same London Underground Circle Line that only features 1 train the S7 stock and is only 17 miles long (so shorter than Cathcart Circle/Neilston/Newton branches combined).

 

yup, a class 380 on additional peak time services, aswell as on AI services would of made this route a real flagship.

The route looks good, and the 314 is well modelled with good sounds, but for ScotRails first DLC in TSW we really needed more.

 

I actually think that CCL is a really good route in concept, for TSW 2 - with four/five end to end paths just for Class 314. I was very much looking forward to this route, and I was hoping to put in maybe 100 hours of serious simulator gameplay into it, and completely learn all of the paths - as a personal challenge. The route length for me doesn't matter - it's a mini-network (although a better network would have included an outer circle... see TS2012....).

After the first CCL stream I was concerned that the route would just be unfinished or incomplete at release (like HLL or the RT upgrade) - hence my thread begging DTG to postpone release and finish the route (I just wanted it to be right), but it looks like they have finished it now (we will see what first adopters think, next week). But finishing it without lights was a deal-breaker for me.... I just find it shocking that they think this is remotely acceptable or justifiable... and I don't understand why British routes always have to suffer from this poor feature set with the optimisation - they should plan for the features/functionality in advance, and budget the route build later, like they do very successfully with the German routes.

Anyway, as a weird coincidence... I have just bought the ACC* DLC as well, for both PS4 and PC. I actually had a slightly ridiculous splurge today, to catch up with car games, and I also bought F1 2020 (Schumacher version), WRC 9, Dirt 5 (plus season pass), Snowrunner, Overpass (with low expectations, but cheap), Mad Max, Rage 2, Accidents Will Happen bundle (with low expectations), the Mafia Trilogy, plus half a dozen indie narrative games that I want to support.... LOL.... something like £300 left my account... and there now isn't any budget for CCL..... so CCL will have to wait. Hopefully future memory optimisations in core will allow them to revisit the Class 314 and switch the lights back on, to make it playable, so that I can buy it.

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*NB: I was probably a bit mad to buy these games, because ACC alone could easily scoop up six/seven hours a day for quite a while.... because I intend to hit it really quite hard, and do some very long Blancpain events, and building consistency that is fast is really tough.... but I have certainly freed up a considerable amount of time by withdrawing my plan to buy and intensively play/learn Cathcart......

 

I have good news for you. It is playable and you can buy it (or at least will be able to next Thursday)
The issue is that you don’t want to buy or play it and that’s fine.

 

So it seemed like the 318 was the first chosen train but then things changed and the 314 was picked but Matt did say depending on sales for this route and if it goes good they may make more trains for it like the class 318 class 332 and class 380

 

Yep, I know I can buy Cathcart Circle from 10th June (and no, they shouldn't postpone the release).

Yep, I know the route will be playable for anyone that doesn't want to run the train in the dark, or doesn't mind about there being no light source on the front.

For me, Cathcart Circle would not be enjoyable as it is - I can't do what I want with it. And that's fine, TSW is clearly not meant to be a simulator with any depth anymore - the ambition in this respect has evaporated - TSW is now becoming more like a 1990s style train driving game, and that's very nostalgic, etc., and many people will enjoy that, and that's great for them. Not great for me though.

Where I disagree with you is what you call "the issue". I do want to buy a TSW-based simulation of the Cathcart Circle route/network. I was really looking forward to it. I was very motivated to buy it. I was so motivated by it, that I put quite a lot of energy and time into trying to make it clear that I would like it to be a route that works from Day One. Because I really really wanted it to play it. And if it worked, and you could see where you are going at night, then I can absolutely assure you that I would be singing the priases of this potentially fabulous route. But.... it hasn't met its potential... and what's left is still a truly fabulous route, but one that I can't enjoy for 90% of my expected use for it. So, I won't be buying it until I can see that the lights work.

But you know, it's swings and roundabouts. I genuinely expected HRR to be a bit rubbish. I bought it anyway (in a sale), and it has turned out to become one of my favourite routes in TSW. Posssibly my favourite. It has immersion. So what I considered to be a write-off is actually a gem, and the gem that I expected Cathcart to be has become a write-off.... although... since I won't be buying it anytime soon.... "write-off" isn't quite right as a description. Maybe "nothing burger" would be better.... or "busted flush....".....?

 

With the news that the 313 will be delayed (after Rush Hour?) I went into watching the stream a little disappointed. Watching the stream though just left me thinking is it worth it? Smaller route, ONE train, one Livery but full price? I only buy British routes but felt a bit 'Meh' towards this one, I'm sure others will enjoy this one just not for me maybe another one for the sales.

I'm not that bothered about 'Rush Hour' really. I have only a 1080 Ti graphics card and it is running great at the moment so why put more stress on it? I was however looking forward to the 313, I suppose I will wait for that to come first.

 

That's actually still a very capable card. I'm still getting by on a 1070 and doing more than OK. I expect it will handle "Rush Hour" just fine. I keep mulling over an upgrade, but the only worthwhile cards are the "30" series and I don't think my PSU could handle it.

 

We, the players, have taught the publishers that they can sell us unfinished games.
And that they never actually have to finish them to get the money.
So we can only have complaints against ourselves.

During one of the YouTube streams, Sam made it very clear: Train Sim World is not a simulator - it's a collector's game where you start with the basic TSW kit and then collect the DLCs.
Do you need to explain anything more?

 

Hmmmmppph... My view is that TSW has potential to be as good at simulation/immersion as TS2012 is... and then some more... - it should become much better than TS2012.

I have been tempted, over the last few years, to write a proper published manual/guide for TSW, that fully describes how you can "progress" your skills in the game, leading to a situation where you find yourself using a pretty respectable operational simulator, and where the "gameplay" you are involved in becomes so deep that you are actually in a decent simulation of train driving. Such a manual would take you through all the steps you need to take to progressively remove the "driver aids" in the HUD.... teach you how to go about route learning... teach you how to deal with difficult weather conditions....etc.

It would be a nice project - and I would probably do it for free, and if I did it, then it would be at a professional publication standard, and easy to translate into multiple languages. It would help a complete newbie that knows nothing about trains develop their skills so that they are able to "see" the simulation itself, and become an advanced user that can fully exploit what TSW has to offer (like a handful of people on this Forum).

But it's not possible to do this with the inconsistent way TSW is made. And if they are going to introduce new trains that don't have lights on the front, For Facebook's Sake, then there isn't any hope for TSW in the near future. TSW did have potential, but I think that there will always be a drive to Rush Hout the DLCs.... and if a DLC has performance issues and the internal publication deadline is drawing near, then cutting out critically important light sources and/or other functionality seems like an easy win that maybe most people won't notice. The problem is created before work starts to construct some of the routes, because they don't work out the available budget for the build (for British routes), and stick to it. And it's then extremely time-consuming to rebuild and re-optimise a route for better performance because you have to pull the build apart, do new artwork, re-test it all, etc. It's a "Six P" situation, where Proper Planning Prevents Panasonic Poor Performance.

I might still write a guide, but only when mapping is brought in, and when they settle down on a HUD that you can configure, and where the important information that you might want to look at frequently is given more precedence than the unimportant information (like AP points...?), and where the UI persistently contains relevant information on previous performance (timing, accuracies, etc.).... and when they introduce labelled maps for the routes.... and the list goes on.

TSW is very much an "early access" game that is still going through early development, and now that they are stripping working lights off trains, that development is going backwards.

For me, personally, Cathcart had a huge amount of potential to be a route to fully explore and learn at a very deep level. But DTG decided to roll out a version with critical functionality stripped away (critical for me), so it isn't going to happen for me..... But I wouldn't use the Jasper/Sam refrain and say "Don't Buy It....!" - I would encourage people to buy this route.... it looks fabulous from outside the train, and really great for screenshots, it has a nice built up environment, and they have advanced the TPWS function, and most people will get several hours of enjoyment playing Cathcart Circle - so for more casual players, I would certainly say "Buy It".... it will be a fabulous route for most, and when you get bored of it there will always be another similar DLC for you to purchase just around the corner.

 

You should watch the whole picture. If you know DTG is working on "Spirit of Steam" heavily. And that means DTG needs a lot of recourses for creating the steam locos. They are on the beginning of creating steamers for TSW and steamers needs much more effort in creating than a diesel or an electric. So I think almost all loco creating resources of DTG are concentrated on steamers. And in the mean time we will not get so much new locos from DTG self. But on the other side we'll get steamers in the not so far future. And that's a thing a lot of us are very excited for.

 

I belive I know what you mean - you would like TSW to use its potential

But if it's more profitable to sell unfinished and incomplete DLCs, because there are enough people willing to buy, for example, a train without working headlights, it's difficult to blame DTG that they reach for easy earnings and milk rich "suckers" (no offence!)

TSW has turned towards the arcade console game and is becoming more like "Densha De Go", only worse because without a dedicated controller. It's a pity, because TSW looked so promising when CSX Heavy Haul was released ... I thought it would be the railroad equivalent of Flight Simulator!

DTG makes it clear that fans of simulators should look elsewhere because TSW is becoming a "hobby" for collectors rather than for virtual train drivers. There are more people willing to collect add-ons and simply take spectacular photos of virtual trains in nice scenery than to experience driving a train. We have to accept it and look for an alternative to TSW. Perhaps the old Train Simulator isn't the worst choice at all.

Fortunately, something interesting appears on the horizon - a simulator (not another railway-game!) created by a company that builds simulators for real railway companies:

​

 

I really hope that eventually, we will get new rolling stock with routes, there is such a large variety and yet so often we get the same type of train. I know, it is never just a reskin, but for me as a player it is, and I would like more rolling stock variety. So let's see then, once steam is out, if the situation will become better again.

 

DTG can be developed from two aspects, one is simple to control, you can drive, and then enjoy the scenery all the way!
The other mode is the "professional mode", which highly simulates the driving of the driver and satisfies the player from different angles.

 

For the german routes you can have that professional mode in TSW already. Turn on all the safety systems. And than you have to concentrate on the presignals and signals. If you watch around at the landscape there to much, the LZB, PZB and the SIFA breaks you down immediately ("Zwangsbremsung").

 

On the first look Simrail2021 looks very nice and authentic. But if you look a bit deeper, you will realize there are no brands at the locos and the trains. And that's the big deal- breaker. If you really like simulations than you want that your train looks authentic with the real brands. With farming simulators there was the same. And that simulators without brands didn't had much success.

And to be honest I want the UP, Amtrak, GWR, DB, SNCF and so on brand's on my trains. Otherwise it doesn't feel authentic for me.

 

Personally I think it comes down to the country it’s portraying.

For example if you had a German only simulator, it wouldn’t be too bad to not have branding, because you’d only really miss out on DB brands since the majority of the traffic is DB red stock, the same applies to SimRail, it’s only one country with very few options for branding anyway, where as if was trying to simulate multiple countries, or a country like the US or UK with lots of TOC’s, then I’d agree with you.

 

DB is not red livery only. Look at the IC's, the ICE's, the S-Bahn-Mitteldeutschland and the S-Bahn-Berlin. And actually DB Cargo is painting some of its Vectrons black.

 

Hence why I didn’t say it was only red.

 

Has SimRail an editor? If it does then I'm sure the player base will soon provide all the branding. For me there seems something missing in TSW for it to be a sim, like a career mode or something similar where there is more to the game.

I'm surprised sometimes how far I can push it, lol. I still have my doubts with Rush Hour but if people report it OK I will probably get it for the Brighton route. I feel the same as you about getting an upgrade. I was told by my PC manufacturer my system can handle it but getting hold of a '3060' seems impossible at the moment although there is talk of cards being available in the next year and talk of nvidia adding some code in their drivers so when used for 'mining' it halves the speed.

Won't hold my breadth though.