Hma (need I Say Anymore)

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by tubefan1973, Jun 3, 2021.

  1. tubefan1973

    tubefan1973 Well-Known Member

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    HMA... Hyped for the layers and services at release, yet still none in sight, DTG, you promised us them "Soon After Release" Now, don't give me any of this "Soon could be in a years time" crap and start delivering with your statements, give us info, give us something, give us the layers.

    Tubefan
     
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  2. junior hornet

    junior hornet Well-Known Member

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    Do you really need to rehash this? DTG have said that they need to complete the optimisation work before they can introduce layers on consoles. They have said that this work is ongoing but not likely to be for a while yet.

    I certainly wouldn’t expect it before Rush Hour is released.
     
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  3. tubefan1973

    tubefan1973 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I do need to rehash this, they cant be allowed to keep making false promises like this so I am keeping it going until they stop the false promises
     
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  4. Coastway trainspotter

    Coastway trainspotter Well-Known Member

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    Probably on next gen consoles in the core update alongside RH
     
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  5. joulz75

    joulz75 Active Member

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    I hope that too. If not, that would be a scandal...
     
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  6. L89

    L89 Well-Known Member

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    I can't see it happening on Xbox One. Isn't only 5 GB of memory available for games? Hopefully Xbox Series X|S it can be achieved. Unless they can really, really optimise the core game, it will likely be swappable layers using alternate timetable on last-gen (Xbox One and Xbox One X).

    Series S only has 10 GB compared to 16 GB of the Series X. The last gen Xbox One X has 12 GB of memory but some of that won't be available to the game. Then there's the slow processors of last-gen consoles. I'm holding out for stock of a Series X over a Series S. Could the lower memory be an issue on Series S?
     
  7. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I suspect there will be layers for next gen until they do the optimization update when rush hour releases. It´s a shame hma was porrly optimized to begin with
     
  8. volvolover1972

    volvolover1972 Well-Known Member

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    From what I’ve gathered from various roadmap streams and what not is that DTG will try to add the HMA layers to consoles by implementing separate timetables. Think like what they just did with RT. So it would possibly be something like a timetable with the ICE and S-Bahn services (what comes with the DLC now) and another separate timetable with the layers using locos from other routes (RE services, freight). I'm not saying this is going to happen for sure, but it’s definitely one option they are looking into.
     
  9. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Personally, I would not like that option. To have a timetable with ice and s bahn and another sepreate with re and freight would just kill immersion.
     
  10. formulabee#1362

    formulabee#1362 Well-Known Member

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    I agree- dtg said soon- but it is now over eight months since they said that. Dtg owe us console players an apology
     
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  11. volvolover1972

    volvolover1972 Well-Known Member

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    I hate to break it to you, but DTG have been known to attach "Coming Soon" to many things in the past that we never saw. e.x there's a TGV Reseau addon for TS classic that's been half broken for 3 years. An update was promised "soon" quickly after its initial release. We still haven't seen it...I'm not even going to get into multiplier and the editor. I'd also note that nothing on the roadmap directly states additional HMA layers for consoles are being worked on. Memory optimization is in production, but no potential update for HMA is mentioned yet.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2021
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  12. tubefan1973

    tubefan1973 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, because "smaller bugs and features arent on the roadmap" you lot infuriate me at times,
     
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  13. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Well dtg do say if something isn't on the roadmap, then it is not being worked on.
     
  14. Richard CZE

    Richard CZE Well-Known Member

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    The question of why there are no layers in DLC HMA, I would say again when the memory optimization on the consoles is done. We'll have to wait until then.
     
  15. tubefan1973

    tubefan1973 Well-Known Member

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    The Roadmap isnt gospel, we all know its being worked on, now stop being a pain, you remind me of that one kid in primary school who would always think the teachers word is gospel, it isnt
     
  16. tubefan1973

    tubefan1973 Well-Known Member

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    I KNOW, I WASNT BORN YESTERDAY! But for poor Series S/X or PS5 owners, please remember the roadmap doesn't show small bugs (watch the stream and they classified it as a small bug)
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2021
  17. formulabee#1362

    formulabee#1362 Well-Known Member

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    tallboy7648 the roadmap does not feature small bugs- I suggest you watch the roadmap streams.
     
  18. tubefan1973

    tubefan1973 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the back up! Much appreciated
     
  19. Thorman

    Thorman Active Member

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    This DLC shouldn't have been released unfinished. DTG says they want the same experience for every player whatever system they play on (pc / consoles) but nothing is done :

    - HMA for consoles : nothing done
    - Stuttering sound (particularly on xbox) : nothing done.
    - Inexistant sales on xbox : nothing done. (Yes I know it is on Microsoft side but as a customer this isn't of my concern. To this point they should throw us a bone: a special livery or whatever. Even better: lower the DLC price on consoles.)
     
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  20. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    Small bugs may not be on the roadmap but the lack of layers on HMA is a huge bug. I have the route on PS4 and I bought it knowing what issues it has and I can quite confidently predict after seeing how it performs that the layers are not coming for the old consoles in the way they are on PC and most likely will be on PS5. An option to turn layers on or off or separate timetables is the only way I see the other service layers being made available*. The route struggles with the layers it already has. Only core memory optimisation is on the roadmap and I doubt the actual route is getting any work on it at present. The upgrade to 4.26 may help but only time will tell, and I can’t see any improvements being made to anything other than the upgraded version so nothing is likely to change until after Rush Hour releases anyway.

    If you think badgering DTG will change things I’ll join in... “Oi, DTG, give us our layers”... although I don’t think that will change what they are working on at the moment as they are pretty busy with the yearly update.

    *it may turn out that this will be true for more routes going forward (for the old consoles and lower spec PCs) and I base that on what DTG are telling us the Rush Hour routes will contain. Unless there are massive improvements to the core, the same thing will occur with those busy routes as happened with HMA, as they are going to be very very busy.
     
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  21. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I think that tubefan1973 does need to re-surface this question. And many other issues need to be constantly re-surfaced as well, you know.... just in case they get forgotten... and just in case they then become "an old problem that is not now worth addressing".... or indeed.... a problem that affects a previous version of TSW.....

    There is an alternative approach. We could have a live persistent list of "bugs and issues" - not a Roadmap, and certainly not the Roadmap as it was or now is..... and absolutely not the Rush Hour Roadmap that is to come, which sounds to me to be more like a pure pre-marketing vehicle for the annual release, rather than any attempt (at all) to track long-standing issues of concern to players.

    Until we see a list where things like "restore layers to HMA for console" stay on the list until they are resolved (whether they are being worked on or not), and a complete list that includes Rivet "bugs and issues".... then this sort of thread will, quite justifiably, keep popping up from time to time.

    So I welcome this thread, and any other "re-hash" thread, where major issues have not yet been resolved, and are in danger of being lost in the hype for the next DLC, forgotten over time, and left broken and/or unresolved, or left as a promise that has not been kept, and then gets relegated to "will never be done".
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2021
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  22. tubefan1973

    tubefan1973 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks so much, at least someone sees the right side of it.
     
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  23. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I do and they usually say on the stream that if something is not on the roadmap then presumably it's not being worked on. I assume you watch enough streams to know that as well. Core Memory Optimization is on the roadmap that could solve this problem but I don't see "HMA Layers to work on Console fix" on the roadmap. DTG doesn't seem as well when the question is raised to have a confident answer on how they are gonna get them to work either. If they did threads like these wouldn't be made which is baffling considering that HMA released months ago. For the next gen update for tsw2 I assume it's very likely that layers will be activated for next gen consoles as they will no longer use the Xbox One/Playstation 4 version of tsw2 which will be good for me as a Xbox Series X user but for last gen I have my doubts until memory optimization comes and it seems dtg are a long way off of finishing that optimization update
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2021
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  24. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Which would mean not releasing it AT ALL, because adding layers for OG PS4s and XBs simply is not going to happen, because it cannot happen, or at least not until the mysterious "optimization" is accomplished in the fullness of geological time. It's just too big a workload for potatoes to handle.

    I would expect that the true answer is "never," for PS4 and XB1. In a year or so, in other words with the 2022 annual update, DTG will drop support for last-gen consoles entirely.
     
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  25. JonnE

    JonnE Well-Known Member

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    In my opinion that's a general philosophy question how much representation of the reality is offered in the sim. While there are pros and cons for both alternatives my personal view is indeed that HMA should not have been released at all although it technically makes no difference because it's not necessary to purchase it. Emotionally it was the initial disappointment that, in combination with some successors, lead to a significant amount of frustration amongst players that will sooner or later have an impact on sales numbers - speaking for myself I made the decision to stop buying TSW content anymore at full price - which is realistically a complete stop on xbox. The only exception might be Rush Hour...

    I also am of the opinion that it would have been better for the long term standing of TSW if some of the recent DLCs would have been released later in the year but instead a higher focus on bug fixing would have been set. Just as an example, if PIS would be implemented in the missing routes with the speed of the ECW implementation we would have to wait until 2025... and while a certain amount of patience is surely mandatory there are some physical limits here...
    For similar reasons I won't be buying any Project Cars game after the buggiest videogame ever experience PC2 ever again. ;)

    By the way I would throw 2023 in for a stop of last gen support as I would expect the current shortage going on for too long to make this happen next year. Even some FIFA games were developed for last gens for some years earlier- and EA surely did not have to rely on those customers.

    P.S. and OT: Thank you for your PCS tips for CRR. Helped me a lot immediately :)
     
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  26. drdavewatford

    drdavewatford Active Member

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    Same for me, I'm afraid - I know I've made this same point on a number of different threads now but I think it's important to keep reminding DTG that they need to do more to level the playing field versus other platforms with respect to discounts or they will definitely lose revenue.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2021
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  27. erg73

    erg73 Well-Known Member

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  28. volvolover1972

    volvolover1972 Well-Known Member

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    When DTG says "soon", especially in reference to an update or feature, always assume they mean "eventually". More than likely, they initially thought it would be possible to add the layers for consoles, but quickly determined that it would be much harder and take significantly longer to figure out the issue. This has happened a lot with "promises" from DTG in the past.
     
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  29. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    It's a bit unkind to refer to the coders and artists at DTG as "potatoes" - yes, sure it would take a lot of work for them to re-optimise HMA for various platforms, but I think the DTG guys can handle the workload, if they are given the task as a priority.... ;-)

    Oh hang on... you weren't referring to the PS4 as a potato were you....? If so, then I refer the honourable gentleman to Assetto Corsa Competizione, as built in UE and released on PS4.... and it's really quite stunning. And the TT Isle of Man game (featuring a 40 mile route) runs like a dream - it's an incredibly scary and shockingly immersively scary dream, but a dream that feels quite real - and absolutely fine on the PS4, whether you are doing 180 mph or looking at the super detailed scenery after you just dropped the bike at 20mph.... Maybe you could take a look at the graphics in DriveClub... ? That's a game that launched with the PS4.... all those years ago. And it still looks pretty darn good today. And then there's GT Sport (again, with some very long tracks, beautifully rendered....oh, and running some fairly sophisticated netcode as well........).

    The DTG coders/artists are not potatoes - they are perfectly capable. The PS4 and Xbox are not potatoes - it is really amazing what you can do with UE on these machines.... way beyond what you see in TSW.

    TSW and TSW 2 are the potatoes - they do not exploit the power available, or make use of UE features/capability with any reasonable level of efficiency, because DTG's coders/artists are not given enough time to make and optimise the TSW products.

    And I am not sure that you are right about DTG dropping the XBox and PS4.... not for a very long time (2023-2024..... maybe.....). Sony itself has revealed that some of the upcoming PS5 titles, like Gran Turismo 7 will now be released on PS4 as well.. along with a number of other as yet unreleased cross-gen titles.
     
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  30. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    How many vehicles is Assetto Corsa handling at one time?
     
  31. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    In multiplayer races in Assetto Corsa Competizione (A UE.4 game) you can have upwards of 40+ cars in a online race and it runs fine on last gen consoles based on reviews I have seen. Forza Motorsport 7 multiplayer can have 30 cars in a race or more and runs fine. GTA 5 has many cars and people on roads and runs fine on last gen as well
     
  32. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    multiplayer is rather different. AI is not driving the cars; and each car's physics are being handled by one console.
    It's a simple multiplatform parallel processing setup
     
  33. ShaneS89

    ShaneS89 Active Member

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    Single player in ACC you can get 20 to 25 cars before it starts struggling on a low end pc or on console. Acc does some things great (rain effects especially) but tbh race car physics are way simpler than what tsw is trying to run so it’s going to run smoother.

    The Isle of Man TT isn’t a UE4 game so you can’t really compare them.
     
  34. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    I think that is highly unlikely...... It is true that real Rail Vehicle Dynamics problems are actually quite complex beasts (modelling vibration through a long freight train, modelling dy/dq rail climb over-ride probabilities for wheelset profiles... etc..)..... but TSW's free-body model won't be anywhere near as complex as the tyre model physics (alone) used in the simulation in ACC. Apart from anything else, I suspect that the vast majority of TSW assets are ghosted, with no collisions enabled (except where your camera contacts a building wall, a structural vehicle wall, or a passenger) - that's why the 1972 stock doesn't get smashed up when it goes into most of the underground stations on BKL where the platforms collide with the train..... ;-)

    LOL - even buffers aren't modelled with actual collission physics.... ;-O

    In any case, although the physics calculations take some CPU time, the processing power required for even quite complex physical models is completely swamped by the calculations required by the GPU to animate the results, by several orders of magnitude....

    The point that I am making is that a PS4 or X-Box is very capable of delivering a visual experience well beyond what TSW provides - but it takes time to optimise assets and get the most benefit, and time is not something that DTG likes to use much of, when they make their products. I am not convinced that they make any effort at all to make a detailed performance budget for route builds.... ;-O
     
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  35. ShaneS89

    ShaneS89 Active Member

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    I think you’re giving the tyre models of racing games too much credit, with the exception of rFactor 2 and possibly iRacing tyre models aren’t that complex and for the most part don’t feel how it does in the real world.
     
  36. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    The overall point is that last gen consoles can handle pretty complex ue4 games or games on different engines very well. I can list many more games but I don't want to type forever. It's just that tsw2 is not optimized fully properly for last gen consoles. It has nothing to do with the game engine itself but dtg's poor optimization of the game hence why there is an optimization update coming (which should've been in the game before release). If this game was properly optimized then layers on hma would be on for consoles and there would be no optimization update necessary
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2021
  37. Richard CZE

    Richard CZE Well-Known Member

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    Optimization is also needed to trigger rush hour traffic. I would like DTG to finally tell us. Yes there will be layers, or no technically it is not possible.
     
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  38. volvolover1972

    volvolover1972 Well-Known Member

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    The thing with TSW layers that is unique compared to most other games is that in timetable mode trains are constantly running in the background. Unlike in TS classic or in TSW scenarios, trains can't just disappear into portals permanently once the player has passed a certain point. Because timetable mode is designed as being open world, the game must continue to render trains in the background and have the AI do its service pattern even if the player is at the opposite end of the route. This means that CPU and memory is particularly hit hard on last gen consoles and low end PCs. This is partly why scenarios tend to have more AI traffic than timetable mode services since trains can be disappeared into portals and not constantly rendered in the background.

    The problem specifically with last gen consoles is that the total amount of combined RAM and VRAM is 8 GB. That is extremely low. Even on a modern lower end gaming PC, you would probably still have 12-14 GB of combined RAM and VRAM (note that on PC they are separate modules). Mid range systems can easily have of 22-24 GB of combined RAM and VRAM. There has to be enough VRAM to handle the textures and graphics rendering files and enough RAM to handle the core game functions and AI services. You can easily see why heavy optimization is needed for last gen consoles.
     
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  39. DB628

    DB628 Well-Known Member

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    I saw last time that the Train was Spawned at Peninsula Corridor because of the Draw Distance issue.
     
  40. Richard CZE

    Richard CZE Well-Known Member

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    CPU usage has its limits. You cannot release a game that will only work on the most powerful game sets. Also, AI trains as graphic objects would also not have to take a lot of CPU power and fill the gaps on the railway line. Therefore, I hope that the optimization will bring a great improvement in the operation of the game on all platforms.
     
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  41. tubefan1973

    tubefan1973 Well-Known Member

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    And guess what, DTG are being all hushey hushey about this, even though this is a sizeable thread now
     
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  42. trainsimplayer

    trainsimplayer Well-Known Member

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    There are many issues with this. Most notably the fact that If they lowered prices on console (say to the price of WSR for Routes) then PC Players would be demanding the same.
    It's the exact same effect caused by the sales issue. And you say "it isn't if my concern" that it is a Xbox/Microsoft thing, not DTG. You admit what the issue is yet you completely overlook it.
    DTG know fine well a "Special Livery" would just feel like an insult to Xbox players.
     
  43. trainsimplayer

    trainsimplayer Well-Known Member

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    Let's play: Spot the DTG Bashing!

    Look, the HMA Layers are an issue that date back. And with Rush Hour, GCC etc. Coming up, which (judging by GCC) are higher quality routes.
    Due to the limitations of last generation consoles (XONE & PS4) it's unlikely they would go back to it.
    If they do it would be when Adam's crew get to HMA.
    Even at that, that would likely be after the rest of Preserved Collection.

    And I know what the usual arguement is "oh well that's not fair". It's nothing against console players. After XSeries/PS5 get an optimised version of the game these issues should be removed.
     
  44. junior hornet

    junior hornet Well-Known Member

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    Can I please qualify my earlier posts. I’m not suggesting that problems should not be raised and re-raised if it they are being ignored. But in this case we have been told several times that a) layers cannot be turned on until optimisation is complete and b) this work is ongoing and is a major piece of work. They are not ignoring the problem (at least as far as we have been told) and I wouldn’t expect them to tell us anything if there is nothing new to tell.

    They have also said that it is as easy as “switching it on” when it is ready to go which is probably why layers for HMA specifically are not on the road map as there is no direct work to do on this.

    Yes, they did say “coming very soon” on the original blurb but they have updated this information since, particularly on the streams.

    Creating a brand new thread isn’t going to make it come any quicker and, personally, I would prefer that they take their time and get it right rather than rush it out to a forced deadline and have all the problems that many recent releases have had.
     
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  45. friskey.marcedes

    friskey.marcedes Active Member

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    Excellent thread - perhaps when the clock works on Munich station then all will be well with the world...
     
  46. trainsimplayer

    trainsimplayer Well-Known Member

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    I couldn't possibly think of one more cosmetic feature for an old route.
     
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  47. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    I don't think this is quite true (or true at all.......). I have seen trains portal in on GWE...... at quite short range. TSW doesn't generally render anything beyond the map tile (500m x 500m) after the one you are on, hence the weird view into the nether-world (the tunnel end that appears to get further away as you approach it) as you progress through Marsden tunnel on NTP. And if you free cam out of the train, hold your camera position and let the train wander off a couple of tiles into the distance (about 1000m)... then when you switch the camera back to the driver view you are actually re-loading your locomotiove into memory (because it has removed itself) - and TSW 2 even loads a splash screen (the main title image) while the scene is loading back into memory......

    The simulation obviously includes a scheduler that tracks when certain trains need to arrive into view, if you are there at the same time. I am not even sure 100% that it is actually a full simulation of movements (although it appears to be when you look at each end of the map).

    Whatever.... TSW certainly isn't an open world that is constantly rendering every train on the map. Ideally it shouldn't even be drawing (processing) much of anything that is outside of your current field of view to any high LOD, except to prepare for the possiblity that you might turn your camera to look at it (held in memory for a short while).
     
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  48. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Yes it is, at least with regard to implementing the reduced physics models of timetabled trains which are out of sight. It's true that they aren't rendered graphically until the tile loads (which is a GPU matter); but the CPU is crunching numbers for every active train.

    While it is true that some timetabled trains enter and exit from portals, certainly the ones that enter/exit branch lines, this is not at all the same thing as scenarios, where bespoke trains enter and exit just long enough to pass the player train at a particular point along the scenario route.
     
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  49. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I know. You can see the status of all the of simulated trains on the entire route via the map widget. But the CPU time to do this is dwarfed by the GPU/CPU time it would take to keep all of the map graphically rendered (as suggested), many thousands of times over. You could run the map widget, and track all of the train positions on a ZX Spectrum 48k, if you are cute at coding.
     

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