Asia Route Suggestion-- Hong Kong East Rail 4000+ Words, Many Pictures

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by KCRCRailway, May 30, 2021.

  1. KCRCRailway

    KCRCRailway Active Member

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    WARNING: A lot of images will be used below, see the index to jump for the section you need if you are not interested in some parts. However, I strongly suggest you at least take a glance on them, I carefully selected them trying to reflect the best of the route.
    1:Route
    2:Possible ScenarioRolling Stock
    3:Rolling Stock
    4:Cons
    5:Pros
    Update: #13 I added some questions needed to discuss, but had not yet explain why they are. This should hopefully solved before mid of June.
    Another update: After DTG managed to push the Service limit to 1400+ on BML, it seems to me that there is no reason that DTG can't handle this simpler route, the technicaly diffculties from DTG is no longer an issue. The only issue will now be the MTR and KCR's attitude toward license. I might talk about this in detail in future.
    Start here

    [​IMG]
    (Mixed MU set with MetroCammel EMU combining Mid-Life Refurbrishment Train convereted from MC EMU, by HK Rail Net, 1999-02-06,https://www.hkrail.net/Photos/3592/)
    [​IMG]
    (The last postal service VF05, hauled by Diesel No.56, waiting for clearance with a SP 19XX Millennium Train passing, 2010-06-15, https://www.hkrail.net/Photos/6120/)
    [​IMG]
    (Southbound Container Freight Service hauled by Diesel No.59, meeting the Northbound Intercity Kowloon-Canton Through Train)(Update: https://www.hkrail.net/Photos/5298/)

    Route-East Rail, but multiple possible time period

    Data: Double 1435mm tracked electrified route powered by AC 25kv 50Hz, 111 years of history start from 1910,Maximum speed 120kph, 14 stations in 41.5km. Suburban-Commuter, Intercity, Freightment service on same route with narrow timetable. Half of the stations are capable to allow Intercity service overpass the local services.
    The major structure of the route was not changed in a big form since 1982 until recent 2020.
    This route, provided a direct link between the suburban and rural north residental area to the dense city center by a tunnel crossing mountain which seperated the area. It also link to the mainland China railway network by rail bridge at the northern terminal. By now, it was the
    The route has a long history since 1910 as single line. Major improvement arrived start from 1982 with double track, electrification and EMU replacing diesel hauled service.
    It was the unique route in Hong Kong as the only intercity route, freightment route and longest train set up to 12 cars.
    Some picture and video showing the view from North (Rural) to South (Urban)
    Skip for the possible time period
    Video below

    (Video breifing the route)

    (POV on a Northern Service ended at station before the 2 terminals below due to pandemic closing border checkpoint)
    Photos, from North to South
    Just before we start, here is route map of the route, notice the southest station was moved back now.
    [​IMG]
    (由KZ9314 - 自己的作品,CC BY-SA 3.0,https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=4349611)
    [​IMG]
    (由Momocalbee - 自己的作品,CC BY-SA 4.0,https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=70058757)
    Lo Wu (Northern Terminal, link to mainland Railway system)

    [​IMG]
    (Lo Wu in 2013, Northern Terminal with footbridge to border check point, 由Devilreborn - 自己的作品,CC BY-SA 3.0,https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=30395888)
    [​IMG]
    (Lo Wu before 2007, the platform was greatly refurbrished after that,由WiNG - 自己的作品,CC BY-SA 3.0,https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=3341712)
    Lok Ma Chau (Border Station feature both Wetland and Urban just across the river)
    [​IMG]

    (The footbridge toward Northern border to the dense urban, 由Qwer132477 - 自己的作品,CC BY-SA 4.0,https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=49916609)
    [​IMG]
    (Notice the station and bridge on far left of picture, the Southern area is a massive piece of wetland with trees enough to drop FPS to 10, By Wpcpey - Own work, CC BY 4.0, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=89408402)
    University (The curvest area in route)

    (Notice the triple language auto announcement in background, the constant of announcement is a feature that must be correctly reflected)
    Sha Tin (South Terminal until urban section electrified, this is also the headquater of KCR before 2007)
    [​IMG]

    (4 platform with more sidings, located in Satellite City Center, 由Qwer132477 - 自己的作品,CC BY-SA 4.0,https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=101937457)
    Mong Kok East (Urban station with building upon it, another Curve station with siding, opened from 1910)
    [​IMG]

    (Notice the blue lighting on edge, not only warning the edge but also provided extra 3cm closer to the train, 由Qwer132477 - 自己的作品,CC BY-SA 4.0 https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=57185557)
    Hung Hom/Kowloon (Southern Terminal, connection to West Rail, Station for Intercity Serivce)
    [​IMG]

    (The major building in 2014, 由Wing1990hk - 自己的作品,CC BY 3.0,https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=34899008)
    [​IMG]
    (Extra Fence was set between Intercity and Local Platform (Not shown in this picture), 由Baycrest - 自己的作品,CC BY-SA 2.5,https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=5138118)
    East Tsim Sha Tsui (Southern Terminal during 2004-2009, now part of West Rail)
    [​IMG]

    (This station was designed to fit the 287m 12 car MLR EMU, holding the longest Platform Screen Door in world, 由Larco - 自己的作品,CC BY-SA 4.0,https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=2948552)
    ----------------------------
    Timeperiod
    You might notice some inconsistance on station design. The original owner of the route is Kowloon-Canton Railway (KCR), which lease all assest to Mass-Transport Railway (MTR). MTR had peformed a standardlize on route making it closer to the MTR original underground routes.
    This, combined with a series of other historic reasons, we can divide the possible time period as following.
    1: 1996-1999,'Re-modernization period'. The route was still in change after Electricfication in 1982 and, after 14 years, most improvement was completed and stabled. The last original MC EMU leaving service. The signal was still protected by AWS, decreasing the diffuculties DTG face on signal system.
    2:1999-2003, 'Start of new Millennium'. This period see the new SP19xx Japan produced Rolling Stock online and, importantly, the last period without TBL2 ATO, allow DTG to ease pressure. It could be combined with 1996-1999 by substitution of MC EMU and SP19xx and one of the train will not appear if player selected other, or done by multiple timetable as GWB.
    3: 2003-2007, 'The dawn of KCR'. This period see extra 2 stations finished construction and enter use (Lok Ma Chau and E.Tsim Sha Tsui). The ATO system are now in charge, from now on DTG must either figure if the signal system could be built or it had to DIY one with what we got in game (maybe by an AI controlled AFB).
    NOTICE: After 2007, stations had been standardlized to MTR standard, so as livery. It is important that either only do the period above, below, or produce some more assest to correctly represent the modern route----it will be a smaller problem to solve compare to GWB and GWE's 30 years difference.
    4: 2007-2009,2010, In 2009, E. Tsim Sha Tsui was handed to other route and the Terminal end at Hung Hom. From 2010, regular freight service ended and the route will NOT see freight service unless was the railway's maintainece wagon.
    5: 2010-2012, 'Passenger Service all in electric'. This represent main operator of Intercity, the China Railway, had managed to swap the service's Locomotive to electricity after solving multiple issues preventing it to be used on the route. From now, all passenger service will not see diesel in use.
    6: 2012-2020-09, 'Peaceful decade'. Nothing important happened during this decade----this means it could be a good period to focus on the harsh weather (explained later).
    7:2020-09-2021-04,'Farewell'. The first issue is the pandemic, seeing the closure of border stations. The second issue is modernizing signal that forced SP19xx rerouted to other route and see the preparation of K-Train in use.
    8:2021-04-NOW. This was, very unlikely, to be introduced as the complex of signal are unlikely to be handled.
    Scenarios:
    1: Local services. The majority of the route is full stopper from one end to another. There was no possibility to skip any station as the timetable was very tight. Service start from 5am to 1am, 3min gap was expected during 5.15 hours of peak traffic. Around 5min gap was expected in other period.
    Local service does not skip station, but there are short services. Cut the route from north to south as [Border](B),[Northern Rural](NR),[Mid Suburban](MS),[Southern Suburban](SS) and [Urban](U), 4 types of short service could be seen.
    1.1: U-MS
    1.2: NR/MS/SS-U
    1.3: U-SS
    1.4: U-NR
    2: Intercity Direct Express services. Majority was operated by China Railway and 1 service by KCR/MTR with different rolling stock. These service will never stop at any stations and will reach the side line at Lo Wu station to enter mainland railway. However due to the tight timetable it will greatly affect the local service despite multiple 3-4 platforms stations. These service can enjoy overiding all local service by the route and ruining the timetable for them. Notice all Intercity only rely on AWS as signal.
    Intercity service will always stop at the Lo Wu siding in reality to allow local driver aboard and direct the main driver, this exactly fit the current situation in game as player had to stop before going out of border.
    3: Freightment----Multiple version. Majority of freightment was before 2010, see this article well described (https://www.checkerboardhill.com/2011/09/demise-of-hong-kong-rail-freight/). If Intercity was annoying, freight is destructive to timetable. All wagons are provided by China Railway. Possible service included mixed freight such as clothing, chemical or steel which is not much interesting. The interesting one is livestock pulling pigs into the urban area for slaughterhouse behind Hung Hom until 2000 where it moved to Sheung Shui. Noteworthy is the picture below.
    [​IMG]
    (MTR Locomotive 8002, 62 and 56 hauling VF08 freight service entering Hung Hom via Kau Lung Hang (Kowloon Pit), https://www.hkrail.net/Photos/5858/))
    Clearly it is not a heavy freight as 3 locomotives are used such a short train (4-8 wagons, depend on which angle you understand the picture). This could likely be explained as to catch up the speed of passenger service.
    Special Scenario
    1: Locomotive haul failed EMU (typical in early stage)
    2: Locomotive haul failed freight service (reasonable after 2007 as MTR reduced the investment of maintainence on locomotive)
    3: Locomotive haul mainland carrige (Probably for bringing empty or failed carrige back to mainland depot for maintainence)
    [​IMG]
    (MTR G16 Loco No.56 leaving Sha Tin station with a Intercity Direct Express RZ25Z carrige following a northbound Intercity service, https://www.hkrail.net/Photos/5901/) (Update: this might also be the carriges are being moved into depot overnight and will be haul back to station for the earliest Intercity Service)
    4: Intercity Train but performing special express service before terminals (KTT performed such special service while waiting electrification complete on mainland routes during 1998-01-24 to 06-01)
    5: Intercity Train but hauled with only 1 locomotive and the wrong direction of cab (Similar to 2, frequency of failure raised in hand of MTR, forcing the KTT operate with only 1 locomotive)
    6: Freight----Express Postal with 3 loco and 1 wagon (such situations sounds weird, but look at this picture)
    [​IMG]
    (MTR Loco No.61 and 58 hauling VF05 postal to mainland, https://www.hkrail.net/Photos/5956/)
    If 2 loco+ 1 wagon appeared, it could be reasonable that 3 loco +1 wagon and drop 1 loco in yard to prevent delay local service by light engine movement.
    7: Freight----Track maintainece (hauling the maintainence wagons around the track in late night and pull them back in early morning)
    8: Severe Typhoon Vicente 2012 Part 1: Late Night Service in thunder (Typhoon will be explained later, this service will ask player to complete a service under wind speed 100kph+ at peak. This service could NOT be completed as a tree will fall near Tai Po Market station and destroy electric cable, cutting the power of the whole route)
    9: Vicente pt2: Emergency towing (Continue from pt1, disabled train was towed by diesel locomotive or self-powered to nearest stations in reality. However, this in game could happen by player driving locomotive towing multiple EMUs and drop off at one station to move those self-powered depot)
    10: Vicente pt3: Chaos morning (The passenger in pt1 had to stay in stations after the train got powered again. More chaos happened in the morning with train return to service as some passenger refused to leave the train. Temp Speed Limit might be imposed to the damaged sections and the chaos will only delay more of the player's service)
    11: Local Train----Signal Failure (2018-01-11, signal was unstable on TBL2 ATO system and AWS system was used as backup. However both system become more unstable resulted suspension of service. This could be reflected in game as the ATO's weird function and AWS unable to react.
    ---------------
    Of course, these scenarios aren't that benefit to the operators----unless in careful phrasing showing what happened is not their fault (which mostly isn't).
    We move on to Rolling Stocks.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2021
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  2. KCRCRailway

    KCRCRailway Active Member

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    Rolling Stocks:
    KCR/MTR's stock:

    All KCR's stock was fit for period until 2007, expect G16 No.51 in preserve.
    After 2007, all simbol of KCR was removed (still visible as colour difference from background) and replaced by MTR simbol. After 2010, Diesel Locomotive will only see action on engineering work as freight service end.
    EMUs:
    Metro Cammell EMU (AC) 'Yellow Cab'
    [​IMG]

    (Called Yellow Cab because it is, notice this Northbound train had a destination board as 'Kowloon' (Terminal at south), showing it was probably using manual flapboard, https://www.hkrail.net/Photos/4696/)
    [​IMG]
    (Words:East Rail Train's memorial journay, this is the E44 3-car set which could not be fitted to the 12-car set and was preserved, this event in 2002-07-27 was the last time a MC EMU in service,https://www.hkrail.net/Photos/4313/)
    A total of 118 3-car set was produced. These units looks and sounds very similar with PEP as MC EMU take reference on them and use GEC traction. Designed and service speed was 120kph.
    In the suggested period, these units should mostly operated as 12-car set. Toilets and some seats removed for more room to stand. This unit will, consider similarity with PEPs, likely to be modeled without big trouble.
    E44 was still not been scraped and was still in depot, despite doors removed. Seriously speaking, MTR [Might] agree to model base on this unit as they were blame for trying to scrap the train.
    Another 2 pictures showing similarities as below
    [​IMG]
    (Control Panal of the MC EMU, https://www.hkrail.net/Photos/4428/)
    [​IMG]
    (AWS and Door Control Panal, https://www.hkrail.net/Photos/4668/)
    Mid-Life Refurbishment Train
    [​IMG]
    (Southbound service entering Sha Tin station, https://www.hkrail.net/Photos/3697/)
    MLR are refurbished MC EMU by Alstom. Major change on cab by removed the door in middle to Streamliner design. Units are now 6 instead of 3 car per set. The doors had also increased to 5 per side. Some sets retained the driver's device at middle part of the set.
    Seating was also adjusted to commuter's setting and information panal was added. These units mainly operated under ATP/ATO.
    A blue livery was introduced at first reciving negative review and all repainted to red livery.
    [​IMG]
    (Early Livery, by kychung.com, CC-BY-NC-ND 4.0, https://rail.kychung.com/zh/2d-zh/九廣東鐵都城嘉慕電動車組翻新後早期色/)
    [​IMG]
    (Current Livery, by kychung.com, CC-BY-NC-ND 4.0, https://rail.kychung.com/zh/2d-zh/九廣東鐵都城嘉慕電動車組翻新後/)
    From 2005 to 2006, TV screen was mounted for passenger while Train Information System installed in Cab to monitor situation in train.
    MLR can still reach 120kph if under AWS, but the ATO will normally drive at 110kph.
    SP19xx Itochu-Kinki-Kawasaki EMU 'Millennium Train'
    [​IMG]

    (Northbound short service by E227 to Tai Po Market entering University station,
    https://www.hkrail.net/Photos/5419/)
    Introduced at 2001, the SP19xx represented KCR's williness on modernization. It has a (ridiculous) 160kph designed speed but was only reaching 120 at most on East Rail due to the slower MLRs blocking route ahead.
    SP19xx are the pround of KCR and mostly operated on the branchline to Lok Ma Chau--notice this means the only difference between MLR and SP19xx is MLR operate on both terminal while SP19xx dont.
    [​IMG]
    (The cab looks much modernized than MLRs,notice this set operated on Ma On Shan Rail and had slightly different design, https://www.hkrail.net/Photos/5178/)
     
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  3. KCRCRailway

    KCRCRailway Active Member

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    Diesel Locomotives:
    EMD G12 No.51 'Sir Alexander'
    [​IMG]

    (Preserved KCR G12 No.51 'Sir Alexander' in the Hong Kong Railway Museum between Tai Wo and Tai Po Market Station, the blue screen behind is the main line,,https://www.hkrail.net/Photos/6625/)
    Specs: Bo-Bo, Engine are EMD 567/645 with 977-1063kw, MAX speed 100kph
    G12s, total of 5 from No.51-55, replaced steam locomotives from 1955, they are retaired from passenger service after 28 years and No.51, 1 year after 1996,the start of this suggestion, finally retaired. Others remain active until 2004, almost 50 years in services. This No.51 is the only one preserved in local and (unforturnatly) taken the space originally used by a 3-car 1:1 MC EMU Model (which got scraped). G12s got a big advantage----the No.51 was preseved allowing chance for modelling and research. Another locomotive, now named TL152, was operating rail tour by K&AB Rail, Austrialia. The current picture shows railway museum's track was not linked with main route. However, I remember for a period of time it was linked and operational. This means it could operate fictional rail tour and return to museum if possible. Sources from museum said it was localized with poles on side and AC unit for drivers, which might be interesting feature.
    EMD G16
    [​IMG]
    (No.59 in Grey Livery shunting at Hung Hom Freight Yard, https://www.hkrail.net/Photos/3520/)
    Specs: Co-Co, 567C/645E, 1800kw, MAX 120kph
    Total of 4 G16s are build for KCR. This is the 2nd generation livery of KCR (G12 wear the 1st generation). They entered service since 1961 and surived until now. These locomotive, together with G26, handled freight service after G12s out of service.
    Special for G16 is G16 No.57 bring the G12 No.51 to museum for the last trip.
    EMD G26CU
    [​IMG]
    (G26 No.62 preparing to haul ER20 8001 from Hung Hom Dock,
    https://www.hkrail.net/Photos/4425/)
    Specs: Co-Co, 645E, 2000kw (235kn), MAX 140kph
    3 of the G26 entered service since 1974. Together with G16, it operated freight service often with multiple together for better accelaration. Notice the livery was the 3rd generation from 1996 and should looks brand new in early stage.
    Siemens Eurorunner ER20
    [​IMG]

    (No.8002 light engine test driving passing University, https://www.hkrail.net/Photos/4282/)
    Specs: Bo-Bo,MTU 16V 4000 R41, 2000kw(235kn), MAX 140kph
    KCR ordered 5 ER20 and was one of earliest customer of the series. ER20 had significantly lower pollution and noise compare with the EMDs with at least 30 years in service. ER20 had put G12s to retirement and was the majority engine used to transfer SP19xx to West Rail via E.Tsim Sha Tsui station.
    ER20 was capable as resure engine if the Intercity service failed within border. However, due to the design of engine was restricted technology, ER20 was forbiddened to enter mainland railway. Therefore, it only carry engineering work while G16/26 on freight.
    Schöma CFL-200 DCL-R Engineering Locomotive
    [​IMG]

    (A MTR picture was used as lack of data for the same one in KCR system, L13 in Kowloon Bay Depot, https://www.hkrail.net/Photos/5201/)
    Specs: Caterpillar Model 3306T, 186kw, MAX 44kph
    Only 1 of such type was owned by KCR and mainly work in the repair depot for shunting. These engine could haul at most 100 tons behind.
    SLM-ABB Lok 2000 Electric
    [​IMG]

    (The rear Lok 2000 in formation of head and tail pushing the T826 Express service,
    https://www.hkrail.net/Photos/5948/)
    Specs: Bo-Bo, ABB-GTO-VVVF, MAX 6100kw(300kn), CONT 5600kw(230kn), MAX 200kph
    The 2 locomotives formed a pair with 10 Kinki Double Decker to be called as the 'Kowloon-Canton Railway Through Train' (KTT). In 2019, 3 north and 3 south service was provide by KTT.
    KTT can be operated with 1 engine, with the cost of slower accleration which will affect local timetable. Notice during 2010 a special livery was weared as below.
    [​IMG]
    (KTT T286 Express Service to GuangZhou East, wearing the Samsung 2010 GuangZhou Asian Games livery,https://www.hkrail.net/Photos/6012/)
    GuangZhou, destination of KTT service, hold the 2010 Asian Games. To show the support of event, MTR had put this livery for the whole year. The livery was taken down at 2011 after game finished.
     
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  4. KCRCRailway

    KCRCRailway Active Member

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    CR's stock:
    China Railway operated most of the Intercity services with their own Locomotives and carrigges.
    Locomotives:
    DF4B 'Orange' Passenger Service Diesel Electric
    [​IMG]

    (DF4 2170 leaving Hung Hom station heading to GuangZhou, https://www.hkrail.net/Photos/4711/)
    DF4B had passenger and freight version.
    Spec: Co-Co, 16V240ZJB, 1990kw(327/243kn), MAX 120
    DF4B is the modification from DF4, the first of 2nd generation diesel locomotive of China. As DF4 suffered from bad quality since production in 1974, redesign was a must. As result, DF4B was produced in 1984 and ended China's history of massive introduce foreign locomotives.
    DF4B is still a reliable locomotive now, it entered Intercity at 1990s to 2000 replaced by newer design.
    It was unknow if DF4B equipped AWS system, it might operated without it under inspection of local staff.
    DF11 'Lion' Quasi-High-Speed Diesel Electric
    [​IMG]

    (After 15 years of service, DF11 0008 Hauling the T814 Express Service, https://www.hkrail.net/Photos/5922/)
    Specs:Co-Co,16V280ZJA, 3040kw(245/160kn), MAX 170
    DF11 was product of China Railway speeding up. Produced from 1992, it had operated on the Intercity service 17 years from 1995-2012. All DF11 entering East Rail equipped with AWS system for safety.
    DF11's powerful engine had a negative effect for the exterme level of noise.

    The DF11 was finally replaced with SS8 electric locomotive after the SS8's pantograph issue solved.
    SS8 'Broom' Electric
    [​IMG]

    (SS8 0066, first day hauling Intercity, passing Tai Wai station toward GuangZhou,
    https://www.hkrail.net/Photos/5281/)
    [​IMG]
    (2 years after modification completed and return to Intercity, SS8 0173 hauling T818 Express, are reaching the border bridge at Lo Wu passing Lo Wu Yard, https://www.hkrail.net/Photos/6642/)
    Specs: Bo-Bo, AC-DC, 3600kw(210,126kn), MAX 170 (TEST 240)
    SS8 was the first locomotive over 200kph in China. However, it faced diffuculties on pantographs when enter service from 1999-2004. This was related with pantograph TSG3, despite modifed based on Lok 2000's, had still caused damage on East Rail's European Standard Overhead Line. After refitting the DSA200 pantograph by support of Stemmann-Technik, SS8 had returned from 2009 and remained the only locomotive servicing the Intercity.
    Only 10 SS8 was modified with AWS system for entering.
    Unlike KTT, SS8's service normally operated with 1 locomotive. A funny shunt device will move the Locomotive to another line allow it to switch end.
    Make sure to watch this video, start from 04:00-04:30 where SS8 0191 using this device.
    Click this: https://www.bilibili.com/video/av45887446/
    DF9 Diesel Locomotive
    This locomotive had, unforturnatly, lack of data. Few photos surived despite it was a very meaningful Diesel Locomotive produced in 1990 first reached 160kph. They were in intercity service only in 2003. Both scraped 2010 despite only 2 was produced.
    Specs: Co-Co, 16V280ZJA, 3040kw(245/179kn), MAX 160
    Multiple Units:

    China Railway had focus on speed up and modernization, as result, the following MU was introduced for testing.
    X2000 'New Speed' EMU
    [​IMG]

    ('High2' service by X2000 passing Sha Tin station toward north with cab car in the picture,
    https://www.hkrail.net/Photos/3720/)
    Specs:1M6T, 3260kw, MAX 200
    The X2000 entered service same time as KTT, from 1998 to 2007. This EMU are used on this route in other to test the 200kph section Between GuangZhou to ShenZhen, north of Lo Wu. After heavy service for 9 years, X2000 pulled out of Intercity service for maintainece. It was later moved to SiChuan Province but was damaged again in 2008 SiChuan 8.0Ms Earthquake. It finally shipped back to Swedan, the home country.
    Carriges:
    The Intercity mostly serviced by the best carrige China Railway had. This was to match the quality of KTT's Kinki Carrige.
    25B
    [​IMG]
    (RZ25B (Soft Seat),由N509FZ - 自己的作品,CC BY-SA 4.0,https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=59274216)
    25B, produced since 1992, are normally without AC Unit. However, the 25B served on Intercity until 2010, are all equipped with AC Unit and diesel generator under carrige.
    Mainly hauled by DF4B, MAX 120kph
    25Z
    [​IMG]
    (25Z of Intercity, stopped at GuangZhou East Intercity platform, 由颐园新居 - 作者作品,CC BY-SA 3.0,https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=11078971)
    25Z is the first generation of carrige capable of 160kph. Produced at 1993, it provided enough experience for the future of high-speed carrige design during service between 1995 to 2012.
    Originally, the carrige only equipped Hopper Toilet. This was improved by installing Vaccum Toilet since 2011 as passenger complained unable to use toilet due to law not allowing the Hopper Toilet within border.
    Hauled by DF11, SS8.
    25C
    [​IMG]
    (25C carrige stored in ShenZhen, 由颐园新居 - 作者作品,CC BY-SA 3.0,https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=15841084)
    25C was produced by cooperation between China and Korea since 1994. 30 carrige was produced due to the high production cost. Despite lower Maximum speed of 140kph, it was still the most advanced carrige in the country.
    25C replaced 25B since 2000 and serviced until 2007.
    Hauled by DF11.
    25T(Bombardier Sifang (Qingdao) Transportation(BST) ver)
    [​IMG]

    (Intercity BST 25T, notice the electric screen upon the window, 由N509FZ - 自己的作品,CC BY-SA 4.0,https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=50647807)
    25Ts are the most advanced carrige produced since 2003. Reaching 160kph, the Intercity version is the only version with electric screen. They are the only carrige used for Intercity since 2012 as the Intercity version was produced that year.
    Hauled by SS8.
     
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  5. KCRCRailway

    KCRCRailway Active Member

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    (3 day went pass and this was still not published...
     
  6. KCRCRailway

    KCRCRailway Active Member

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    Well, the track got cleared now, I'm on holiday and will finish this post on the weekend----this post got trapped in a bad timing
     
  7. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    Excellent Route and by the way the Chinese side is actually Beijing Wuhan Guangzhou Shenzhen Railway. Since I went on this line some 10 years and 9 months ago 2001 had AWS and TBL active but CTCS on the Chinese Side
     
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  8. KCRCRailway

    KCRCRailway Active Member

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    Indeed----East Rail and GuangZhou-ShenZhen Rail are the same route cut by border (at least for some 40 years ago though it never actually work as one). You will be directed to GuangZhou-BeiJing Rail after you reach and I bet nobody want to play this route in 1 run without saving.
    I remember all the Chinese Locomotive did not have TBL on board, result as relying AWS and Local Director only---a bit pain when you keep getting yellow in peak(though they probably just wont have Intercity in peak hours)
     
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  9. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    Looks like you do know the route and for 25T those have a Parcels Carriage attached at Guangzhou for Wuhan and Beijing but not to Hong Kong. This line got extended to Hong Kong Island sometime this year complete with R stock.
    [​IMG]
    If R stock is included KCR East Rail will play like Haputstrecke München Augsburg S3 due to LZB acting like CBTC ATO TBL for KCR East Rail. That means another train will be right behind you
     
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  10. KCRCRailway

    KCRCRailway Active Member

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    If so---Good to hear DTG are somehow capable of handling the signal. But I do feel the 2021 routes will face diffuculties for
    lack of data on the new train (unless MTR wish to provide it) and the route are, until now, not stabalized unlike the 25 years from 1996-2021, and the biggest problem:Without Locomotive this line will lack of variety (which is why I didnt propose the other 2 KCR route or any MTR routes---The experience will sounds like Bakerloo but with platform doors :P
     
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  11. aquapacific

    aquapacific Member

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    U may create a vote for it.
     
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  12. KCRCRailway

    KCRCRailway Active Member

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    Indeed, Poll added
     
  13. KCRCRailway

    KCRCRailway Active Member

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    Sorry Guys, I suffered from headache this week. But the issues need to beware was listed below so I can handle them one by one later.
    1: Generally, will this route having possibility to get the license?
    2: How hard it is to produce the locomotives and MUs related to the route?
    3: AI Passengers---what behaviour we expect?
    4: Sounds---how does sounds greatly affect the performance of this route?
    5: Weather effect---what improvement needed to bring atmosphere?
    6: Timetable---with medium to short distance of route, how can the variety be shown?
    7: Leave Blank---some topics I should discuss but cannot think of now
     
  14. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    It is unlikely that licenses for this route could be obtained easily. A bigger problem may be getting references and information to make the route and trains, and the track systems and operational methods to make a decent simulation of the route. Dovetail would only do it if there was the likelihood that more Chinese routes could be made in the future and the same issues would occur with those routes too. They may wish to pursue it as it could open up a huge market in China for sales of TSW but I can’t see it being easy for them.

    I don’t think there is anything else you can do to increase the likelihood of it happening by tackling your list of issues here in the forum. The suggestion hasn’t really caught the imagination of players here either.
     
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  15. KCRCRailway

    KCRCRailway Active Member

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    I think I can cut my idea into 2 part for easier understanding
    1: Licensing
    2: Reference
    1: 3 companies involved are China Railway, KCR and MTR
    Bad news: As you said and as how the Chinese DLCs in TS produced, China Railway will unlikely provide a license (despite they might not care that much if CR symbol was not used and the Cab of Locomotive was not produced too close as reality)
    Good news: CR does not have (at least not directly) control to the routes---They are under direct control of KCR/MTR.
    The wagons of freight and most Intercity (expect 1 set of KTT owned by KCR) are CR assest and if worst case (No license and cannot be overcome by using similar wagon/carrige with a livery not containing the symbol) happened, it only means the route goes down to the level like RT/BKL/LIRR, with rapid trainsit only. At least it was better than LIRR and BKL as there are still a variety of trains (KTT could be used with fictional number to operate CR's service so the gap could still be filled somehow)

    2: Put aside the problem of how to gain a license from them (probably easier compare with China Railway), there is less diffculties for DTG able to research the route. This route was out of freightment service over 10 years meaning it probably (unlike most Chinese Rails) not carrying any possibile military trains which is a big factor of CR's conservative stance dealing with railway fans.
    I does not know how DTG managed to research routes---Especially with BR period routes. Hopefully, KCR might hold those files.

    There are things I should say but can't think of at the moment. But in short, this route's license was not under CR and should be a less sensitive route consider it was completly commuter route now. IF (with luck) KCR and MTR not object, CR only need to provide Wagons (For freight)/ Carriges (For Intercity, a bit sensitive)/ Locomotive (Quite sensitive, but they are really old locomotives now).
     
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  16. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    DTG does have a partner in China Union Workshop and they can be assigned to work on this route and also the MTR Hong Kong Network. If people want more LZB HMA S-Bahn like game play where you at the other train behind you then another one right after that's where Hong Kong MTR can come in and KCR East Rail expansion. That was mentioned at my comment
     
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  17. KCRCRailway

    KCRCRailway Active Member

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    A short reply as I was already on bed.Longer one will hopefully arrive soon.
    1: Union Workshop
    2: New Signal System
    1: I haven't play their DLC yet but I think it is impressive enough to produce multiple DLCs without official license (and support). I heard Union is now focusing on handling a Shinkansen DLC. This might indicate it will focus on Japan Routes for at least some period consider they actually say they hope the DLC could be on TSW. I can't name any other doing Asia DLC so if Union managed to produce Japan routes, they will unlikely spare their hand out (1 vote in forum has 44 vote for Japan compare with 3 for China, I claim this as most Western Player only Familiar with JR)
    Anyway, if any chance this route was put on planning, I bet Union will not be the main developer as they probably busy with CR and JR. But they are still most convenient one on researching with geographic advantage.
    2: I should admit I can't tell how that new Siemens signal system work---but it seems people here value it similar to LZB. This will surely means DTG are somehow capable to produce it out. But this will also means another group of new trains needed (R-Train, probably that Locomotive from DaLian factory) with low competability (No SP19xx, most EMD out of service).
    However, it might sounds a better idea than the Old signal system to MTR. This will surely represent how this system benefit the transport efficiency, helping them fix their image which got harmed by failure of new signal system.
    I personally favour more for the old time trains so I didn't actually talk much about 2021 route in post. But I should add this to the main issue discussion part later.
     
  18. KCRCRailway

    KCRCRailway Active Member

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    Just saying if you find it hard to understand what I was saying, it is normal---Typing in 3am after playing SPG means I'm now brain dead
     
  19. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    I lived at (Chinese) University for about 5 years, very familiar with this line and the trains on it. I used to love all the different "China Express" trains that went from Hung Hom up to Shenzhen and often beyond. So efficient is the MTR, huge trains every 2-3 minutes on most lines and very clean and safe, quite good value too. Could go from University to Central for about £1.
     
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  20. KCRCRailway

    KCRCRailway Active Member

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    Indeed, and I will say this route somehow similar to Japan route in mean of density of traffic but has a simple layout (which save DTG from route directing which is a headache for them
     
  21. KCRCRailway

    KCRCRailway Active Member

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  22. KCRCRailway

    KCRCRailway Active Member

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    Nope, this is still not yet a discussion of issue I should do, but
    After roaming on internet, I found website if one want to know some more information about the company and line.
    https://industrialhistoryhk.org/kowloon-canton-railway-british-section-modernisation/
    This article (and others on website) could provide some deeper history details on how the line operated.
    https://www.checkerboardhill.com/2020/04/platform-gap-fillers-mtr-east-rail-line/
    This article (and others) provide some more details of how us the passenger/citizen understand the railway, although I'm sure the author knows way above than ordinary citizens
     
  23. KCRCRailway

    KCRCRailway Active Member

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    Time to finish the last part:cool:
     
  24. KCRCRailway

    KCRCRailway Active Member

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    Issue related with this route
    1: China Railway: I does not dream that CR will bother to take a look on this- 9% chance they send reply of NOPE, 90% they doesn't bother to reply and 1% they actually see what this is. This means 1: Risk the chance and produce their locomotive and carrige without license (sounds similar to what happened on TS's DLC and might work if the future Shinkansen DLC can get away without JR's branding) or we just put KTT to replace them. Yes, not the best idea, but the varient is needed and we must somehoe build something to interupt the timetable.
    2: Timetable: Speaking of interuption, we have seen some of this in DTG's own scenario such as the blocked door scenarios. Other forms we can think of is random situation such as slow moving trains ahead, either delayed or malfuctioning, or emergency speed limit after the line was damaged due to weathering. Blocking door is the one I feel important as it was 1: Done already by DTG and will not be a hard one to produce and 2: This coped with the Rush Hour topic which (hopefully) push more AI passenger into the train and is very likely end up unable to enter before you close the door. This require DTG able to edit such chance according to the time of service (8am should have more than 10pm) or weather (A rainy day ends with more chaotic platform). This will also require the ability for STOP passenger getting close to the train once times up (which currently in real life done by staff on platform stopping passenger). Similarly, emegency speed limit could be coded in and only in use after extreme weather (the speed limit should have varients.
    3: Mark system: The current mark system is, allow me to claim this, very kind to driver with counting the stop point in meters and delay 2min does not cause big trouble. This system should be stricter for rapid transit and (maybe in future) platform doors. It does not means we have to deduct 100 marks per 10 sec delay or per 10cm overshoot, but the driver should really feel the pain if they overshoot half carrige or suffered serious delay which was not caused by signal (in other words, triggered emergency brake and result delaying 3min).
    4: Extreme weather and weather system: Remember the extereme weather mentioned? The typical extreme weather in East Asia is Typhoon, which is again unavoidable with any Asia routes. The current weather system is nice, but, in my view, does not change the driving experience much (not snow as you almost never have 0 degree in South Asia). Weather system need to be enhanced so the windy storm actually makes it feels windy, either by the shake of trees or cable, or the vehicle itself. The rain is HEAVY, heavy enough to block the sight (means you can actually show off your route knowlege as you cannot see speed limit and can barely see signal by reflection.
    5: Boardcast: This is another important part which should affect every passenger route. The current boardcast is random announcement with 0 relationship of what driver was doing. It was fine putting boardcast not by original boardcaster as long as it follows similar format with the real life annoucement. But it will be awarkly silence if (not only this route) the platform has 0 boardcast with 1 train per 3min.
    What THIS route can provide specifically is 3 language boardcast and a (insane) departure chime. Luckily someone was collecting such annoucement, see below.


    (50 sec depature chime with 1 train for each direction per 3min, no more silence platform)

    (3 language annoucement, this was a much smaller issue compare with any JR route with multiple destination and much better than British with multiple company name)
    6: The 2021 route: MTR had modernized this route to work with new signal system that decreased 50% waiting time to 90sec per train, this means 2 issue: 1:Train pass player doubled. making it likely to be the route with MOST train passing. 2: Many iconoic stock such as SP1900 will get kick off, and the system is not yet fully stabled. This will be really attractive if produced, but I doubt MTR will be willing to disclose this new system yet.
    Anyway, this route does have the potention if the issue above was solved and will be the easy one to produce (from signal to vehicle expect licensing).
    Only problem is it was not the most famous Asia Route: I assume asking a random western customer what route they can suggest in Asia and result will be dozens of JR routes. But it always worth for a try and could prevent the rotation of UK, US and Germany ends up with rotation of UK, US, Germany, Japan
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2021
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  25. KCRCRailway

    KCRCRailway Active Member

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    Why did I always remember the things after I wrote them
    7:Lighting: Fed up with horrible night with nothing lighting but your own train? You can enjoy the light pollution here as half of the route are screened by 30 floor building and the other half see you going along busy highway. No more star night but you got endless artificial light to remember you are in the metropolitan.
    8.Passenger announcement: Similar to boardcast, we will need on board annoucement to maximise the immersion. I saw a picture showing a box allowing driver to choose boardcasting, and combine with the annoucement function in TS's 460 Gatwick Express, it does not sounds that hard to produce a selectable automatic annoucement.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2021
  26. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    2021 version ends up playing like HMA since LZB acts as the ATO Thales Seltrac for that route with DB BR423. For KCR East Rail it's the R stock which I mentioned in an earlier post.
     
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  27. KCRCRailway

    KCRCRailway Active Member

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    And MLR with another modification allowing them to stick around, we also got the DaLian Locomotive with ER20, but there isn't much detail about R-Stock for now.
     
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  28. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Slight bump to this. I have been playing the SimSig traffic control version of this and it is frantic!

    Would make a good network style route and one that might be worth the new £30 price tag.
     
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  29. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    Good point and this can be done now with Union Workshop being the latest 3rd party to join. I went on this route in September 2001 from Hung Hom all the way to Shenzhen in China which is Lo Wu border crossing. Track wise there are AWS Magnets with Belgian Infrabel TBL Memor II grid. Therefore TSC China Railways HXD locomotives if added onto TSW3 Hung Hom Shenzhen Guangzhou route needs CTCS and AWS TBL to run the whole route. When I was at the Hung Hom Terminal station in 2001 I had an Ex British Railways employee who works for KCR give us the ticket round trip Hung Hom Shenzhen Lo Wu.
     
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  30. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    I think the biggest problem with a HK route will be finding suitable DEM (terrain) data. None of the sources are very good even the latest NASA 30m stuff. I just did a terrain extraction for the East Line in Trainz and the ground is all over the place, lumps and bumps everywhere. I think the satellite data collection can't distinguish the tall buildings from the ground which distorts the results. Had the same issue a few years ago when I wanted to try and build the classic HK tramway. Huge hills and drumlins where the terrain in reality is flat. Non starter, sadly.
     
  31. KCRCRailway

    KCRCRailway Active Member

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    On the locomotive part, HXD will unlikely be send to this service as it seems they finally decided to completely replace this with the HSR service which was much quicker and has it's own dedicated line instead of fighting all the way through ex-KCR line across all local service there. Plus MTR might finally able to remove all those old AWS (or they are already removing) as they switched to the Siemens system, meaning CR's locomotive will have to equip the Siemens system which they barely use on national network and will likely to be way more expensive than the AWS equipment which transfered to SS8 from DF11 (and might be able to transfer on HXD if they need).
    *I wonder what will happen to the KTT's locomotive and wagon, doubt CR will want to take over them as they add extra pressure on maintenance being unstandard*
     
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  32. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    Find it helpful and I'm wondering what will happen to the freight yard in Hung Hom is it completely destroyed or not. A part of the Yard has a transfer table
     
  33. KCRCRailway

    KCRCRailway Active Member

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    4 local service platform of the station turned into parking siding. The Intercity platform was retained but probably will be turn into parking siding (I assume) if CR and MTR officially announce the end of Intercity service.
    The yard has been closed since 2012 and rebuild into a larger depot/parking area for around 18 EMU to allow the early service on Tuen Ma Line be started on the Urban sector.
    (Context: The Tuen Ma Line, as combination of West Rail and Ma On Shan Line, inheritated the 2 depot on each route but both are unable to provide extra storing room. The yard allow them to store extra EMU plus first service of day can be started at each end plus the urban stations.)
     
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  34. 2008bmw525d

    2008bmw525d Member

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    Kowloon–Canton Railway (British Section) is memorable (especially before it is renamed in 1996), but I think the market demands (looks at those much demanded British route) and licensing would be quite challenging for them. It may be even easier for Dovetail to ask MTR for the license of Elizabeth Line instead of KCR.
     
  35. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    You are correct for DTG but for Union Workshop China based MTR license is easy for them assuming the company is based in the Pearl River Delta Region where MTR runs Hong Kong KCR original MTR Lines Shenzhen and Guangzhou Metro systems.
     

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