A Truly Rushed Hour

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by Monder, Aug 13, 2021.

  1. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    The term in the title was used a couple of times here on the forums, mostly as a worry of what the pack/season ticket/routes might look like when three massive projects are done at once.

    And now it seems this is completely true and we truly are dealing with Rushed Hour.

    This was to some extent first indicated by the BRD cuts - the route scope turned impossible to make in time (mandatory addition of "community doesn't set your deadlines" here) and cuts have been made. Already that and the spread-out release of the routes gave out the feeling "things are not exactly going to plan".

    Now we've seen two streams of the first route and although some things are definitely good (great sounds apart from a couple of issues, ATC and ACSES seem to have improved a lot), it is riddled with a bunch of problems and background development hiccups. Catenary looking completely different was somehow not noticed until beta, a station completely missed (although ABOVE the line, not on it), cruise control for ACS-64... forgotten? How is it I was supposedly the first one to point out the timetable was missing ALL Amtrak depot moves??? The moves that were mentioned in every previous stream as a very interesting addition.
    https://forums.dovetailgames.com/th...ast-and-exhilarating.43086/page-3#post-348146
    And they're still not going to make it into release, ironically we've even lost one Amtrak service for the time being. And even Matt's belief in the product seems (I am not saying for sure, just describing) pretty low. When in yesterday's stream the balloon runaround suddenly started going the other way again, the goal immediately turned into "let's go look at the other stuff". It probably wasn't a bug, it was supposed to turn around and then go to the depot... but it shows the lack of confidence in what the DLC does. And maybe rightly so - e.g. the trains crammed in a "traffic jam" in Readville.
    upload_2021-8-13_10-24-22.png
    (side note - is that train on the Readville bridge static? there's a station there, but a train is also there every time you pass under it or show the map...
    (yesterday's stream)
    upload_2021-8-13_10-27-32.png
    upload_2021-8-13_10-28-0.png
    (05.08.2021 stream)
    upload_2021-8-13_10-28-45.png
    upload_2021-8-13_10-33-25.png
    ...end of a side note)

    All these issues are looking especially bad when the main argument for cutting branches on BRD was to "not compromise the quality." Well, the quality seems to be struggling quite a bit here. That's from only about 2 hours of streamed content we've seen. And I am worried that the remaining two entries won't do a whole lot better (especially interested in what eco-BRD will show us). And those will not have their own Brandon to go back and fix extreme scenery mistakes if those happen of the route.
     
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  2. Mattty May

    Mattty May Guest

    That’s an interesting observation around Readville. It was immediately obvious to me in last nights stream that something looked odd (which is why I took the screenshot), but hadn’t noticed the other train you’ve mentioned.
     
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  3. cActUsjUiCe

    cActUsjUiCe Developer

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    The train on the Readville bridge isn't static. Just a regular flow of Franklin/Fairmount line trains stopping at Readville. It's accurate.
     
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  4. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    • Catenary was a decision made rather than something missed. Matt commented on last week and this
    • Amtrak depot moves are in the timetable but for some reason not turned on as player runs. commented on last night. The problem with always playing with dev builds is stuff gets missed and as Matt says you can spawn and run these services, they just don't show up on the player schedule
    • The "lost" amtrak run isn't "lost", there's an issue with it. Will still be there as AI (again commented on last night) and probably reinstated when the update comes (with the catenary)
    • The balloon run last night wasn't "abandoned" as such. Matt said before even starting the run that they would stop and do something else when it stopped being interesting. Matt thought the run was back into Boston but it wasn't so he moved on. That's Matt not checking the run before running it rather than a fault on the route or "lack of confidence"
     
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  5. erg73

    erg73 Well-Known Member

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    I want to give them a vote of confidence, to be fair all the routes so far have been launched with problems and it was foreseeable that there would be problems here with three. But I haven't seen anything that is too worrying either, and many things will be fixed with patches later on. If the giants of the industry release games with bugs, we can't expect DTG's games to be perfect in this respect.

    I also don't want to have the same level of demand when they give me the possibility to buy a three-pack of routes for 36€ (12€ each) and they have had limited time, taking into account all the engine updates and all the new features of Rush Hour, as when they sell me a single route for 30€ and they have had months to get everything right. This is of course a personal thing and I don't expect others to do the same and everyone has the right to show their frustration if they see that something doesn't work or doesn't meet their standards.
     
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  6. DTG Lukas

    DTG Lukas Developer Staff Member

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    Dresden is receiving care, don’t worry about that
     
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  7. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    Fair enough, it seemed super weird to me there's a train there in every instance - 4 different times during those two streams, not once empty. The map has been checked quite a long time before/after the place has been passed by the train driven.
    • It was missed, Matt literally mentions the team thought it was NEC, so they went with the NEC-NY catenary not knowing these are a generation newer.
    • Yes, they exist. But this is not easy to miss. Especially when they're a bit of a highlight of the route (as I said - they were mentioned in every prior stream talking about NEC-BP).
    • That's why I said "for the time being", this one service isn't a main point of the original post, just points out the current situation. I've mentioned missing services and ironically next week there's even less.
    • Once the train is the stream starts going forwards again, nothing is mentioned about it even though it's a pretty weird change (I know the AI trains have no physics turned on, so the rapid switch of direction is possible). Only when Matt finds out it's heading for a depot, does he comment on this.
    I know a bunch of the problems will be fixed later after release, but my point is it shows the state of the DLC now. You've gone for the point about one "lost" amtrak, which was truly mostly about the irony of the situation. We still have larger creative decisions/mistakes that happened here. The cruise control one is a really weird one, even AFB on ICE3 is deep inside a display and still there.
     
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  8. Mattty May

    Mattty May Guest

    I think with the AFB on the ICE 3 they had to have it to work with LZB. Or at least a conscious decision was made to have the two systems working together in the game. But it would have been nice to have cruise control on the ACS-64.
     
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  9. Cael

    Cael Well-Known Member

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    I'm sorry, but "all the routes so far have been launched with problems" and "giants of the industry release games with bugs" is not an OK state of events. As a purchaser of a product, you should want the product to be the best it can be. If the overall message is that people will buy a product even if it isn't the best it can be... why even bother making it the best it can be?
    The giants of the industry are a great example of this, with release dates and pre-orders announced WAY before the product is ready or even left the initial planning phase. How many games were released in a bad state?

    Relying on developers to fix their product post-sale is tricky, as there is not much incentive for the developer to fix their product once the purchase already happened. For every game that did (No Man's Sky is probably the best-known example), there are dozens of games that were simply abandoned and never fixed, left in early access, etc.

    And with the season ticket for Rush Hour, this is very similar. There isn't much info on the two other routes, yet they will be sold next week regardless. Maybe they will be great and I will be immensely glad about that. But I don't have such confidence anymore.
     
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  10. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    Matt mentioned on stream that the ICE3 still has an AFB lever in the cab and that having one of the main big levers in front of you on the driver‘s desk not working would have been a very bad decision. The presence of that lever in the ICE3 and the absence of one on the ACS-64 is probably what saved AFB in one case and doomed cruise control in the other. Very disappointing, but not much we can do about it now.
     
  11. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

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    Here's what Matt said about it in another thread, in response to speculation that Amtrak didn't want the team messing around with the menus and modelling everything - including CC:
     
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  12. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    It is supposed to be a simulation. If the loco has a cruise control IRL (a pretty big functionality if you asked me), it should have it in-game even if it is only done by sacrificing a unicorn IRL
     
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  13. a.paice

    a.paice Well-Known Member

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    I thought it looked and sounded very good. I was also impressed they had managed to make some changes in a week including adding more weathering to the coaches without compromising their license.

    I appreciated Matt’s honesty and look forward to the updates he’s promised.

    I’m very much looking forward to buying my season pass.
     
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  14. erg73

    erg73 Well-Known Member

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    I understand what you mean, in fact I have been very critical of DTG here on other occasions.
    But when they announced Rush Hour with the three routes and all the updates for the summer, I realised that if I was expecting something great, it definitely wasn't going to live up to expectations and I was going to be disappointed. I knew I had to lower my expectations and subsequent events like the removal of the branches in Riesa Dresden have confirmed what I imagined.
    So I will try to enjoy what we get, as long as it is not an unplayable product. And I will have time to demand higher quality with whatever they want to sell us next.
     
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  15. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    And as he said last week "It was a bad decision", as reiterated this week. Depends on WHEN you mean it was "missed", I am talking about the two streams we have seen. Can't comment on what happened months ago

    When I'm doing development I will be looking at the code in the background, the admin or dev view of the foreground... just about everything bar "what the user sees". Yes it's a pain but those services ARE there but not marked as drivable (so minor thing to me). hopefully just a mess up rather than "catastrophe"

    Main point of the post seems to be to rip people a new one...

    As I said above, sounds to me like he didn't check which service and make sure it was doing what he wanted. So NOT losing faith like you said...
     
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  16. schorni

    schorni Well-Known Member

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    DTG has decided that schedules are more important than quality. We see this over and over again. DLC are released unfinished or with partly gross errors and then you are told that this may be fixed at some point.
    This way of working shows me that they have no quality standards and the quality interests of the customer DTG are completely indifferent. The marketing will somehow fix it so that people still buy it again and again.
    They ask us for opinions and wishes, tell us that we are being heard, but has anything ever changed? No. So, unfortunately, these are just empty words and it is a pointless waste of time to write anything at all or to report errors. It is simply ignored. They distance themselves more and more from the customer and since they keep doing it, it doesn't bother them. Is there a future for this way of working? Over a certain period of time, perhaps. You lose regular customers with it and then you try to generate new customers by force, with whom you then do the same again. The only thing that is interesting is the customer's money. The customer himself is not. The only ones I feel sorry for are the programmers who have to implement something for which they don't have enough time.

    The stream yesterday showed me that Boston is also unfinished and is still being thrown on the market. The initially high interest in the new routes is now at rock bottom.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2021
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  17. heyitspopcorn

    heyitspopcorn Well-Known Member

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    There was an astounding number of clipping objects and/or textures I noticed in yesterday's stream. Cement bollards clipping through fences, fences clipping through other fences when they meet at angles, objects slightly clipping through walls.

    Not huge things, but it just shows a lack of attention to detail.

    Same for "oh, we didn't notice the catenary was different" and "oh, we didn't notice there was an entire station that we missed". I know it's more difficult to get reference material with the pandemic, but brushing it off as "it's an artistic choice" and "we know now it was the wrong choice" just doesn't cut it. "It's something that we might look at adding in the future", and things like the corrected timetable/catenary should be coming "in a matter of weeks".

    Wasn't the new horn for the SD40 in Clinchfield pretty much ready to go and supposed to be implemented within a few weeks after launch? DTG's history of fixes is still not inspiring. It's better with Adam's team, but still pretty poor. And I appreciate that they had a massive backlog of routes to work on, but how long were things like East Coastway PIS sitting in the queue waiting to be beta tested/QC checked?
     
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  18. Cael

    Cael Well-Known Member

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    Then the messaging is backwards, Rush Hour was announced in the same way as other flagship projects of DTG (TSW 2, TSW 2020, previous annual releases of TS1), therefore it can be assumed it's going to be held to a higher standard. This is a golden opportunity to "show off" for DTG and yet it seems the prevalent reaction is lowering of expectations.

    It doesn't exactly fill me with optimism for the future.
     
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  19. atpyatt

    atpyatt Well-Known Member

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    The route looked good to me, especially in the context of 3 for £35. I'm always a bit surprised at what people expect for c.£12, the last time I took the kids to McDonalds it cost more than that.

    Fwiw, I'd prefer to buy fewer but more expensive routes that had the time spent on them increased accordingly. But I suspect most people would balk at paying that much for a route and it wouldn't stack up commercially.
     
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  20. SHINO BAZ

    SHINO BAZ Well-Known Member

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    With other train sim options just around the corner,you think dtg would up there game quality abit,but why should they when they know a majority of there installed player base will buy there newest offerings no matter how prebroken,incomplete or inaccurate they are.(Plus these people will give them a free pass everytime.)
     
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  21. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    How many bugs did flight simulator (a game with millions of pounds spent on development) have on release? I think the patch notes were a few pages long in the end...
    We are lucky in TSW to have a development team that work up to and past the release date AND have a dedicated team to fixing and updating as time goes on.

    Fine to say "everything should work perfectly", but this is hardly ever the case
     
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  22. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    We haven't seen those sims in action yet to know how realistic and full featured they are.
     
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  23. Mattty May

    Mattty May Guest

    I never noticed any clipping scenery, but if it’s there that’s a tad poo.
     
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  24. FeralKitty

    FeralKitty Well-Known Member

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    When it comes to software development, nothing ever goes to plan. Things always take longer than expected (Hofstadter's law, 90-90 rule, Mythical Man-Month, etc.)

    The reality about software is that it is never finished, and at some point you just have to release it.

    If AAA video game developers (or OS developers like Microsoft, Apple, or Google) can’t deliver bug-free software on time without expected features being incomplete or dropped (due to hidden complexities and lack of time), why hold a smaller company like DTG to unrealistic standards?
     
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  25. Mattty May

    Mattty May Guest

    I really do appreciate Matt & Adam coming on and showing us what’s going on. Things could be better and I hope DTG does start to favour quality than quantity - even if it costs a bit more. My expectations are high and they should be really. Scenery shouldn’t be poorly placed, lights should come on and go off as intended, timetables should be realistically achievable and the gold medal attainable, trophies should pop when they’re supposed too, trains should sound and look authentic and driving the trains should operate as close to real life as reasonably possible. I don’t for one minute think this is an easy task, but it’s a task that should be undertaken to deliver the best train sim experience possible.
     
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  26. Mattty May

    Mattty May Guest

    I can forgive bugs and issues coming out on release. But, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect such issues to be fixed promptly. Some routes still have issues months and months later. Adam’s team simply can’t keep up with fixing things and introducing the new features. Maybe a separate bug fix team and a separate route upgrade team are needed to get everything done. At the current rate, there will always be a significant backlog of fixes/upgrades that need to be implemented.
     
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  27. SHINO BAZ

    SHINO BAZ Well-Known Member

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    Well we have seen dtg offerings for over two years and many here are willing to put up with it's semi functionality,so no matter what these other train sims are planning to offer they don't sound any better or worse so it will still be great to have other options,(I'm saving some train sim fund money for one of them)...
     
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  28. FeralKitty

    FeralKitty Well-Known Member

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    The interest in the new routes is at rock bottom?

    That seems exaggerated!

    Reading this thread, you could find people who are still interested, less critical, and capable of enjoying a route or loco, despite certain issues that bother a minority of customers.

    I suspect that more people will buy it than not buy it, but I don’t have any facts to back up my opinion. In that regard, we’re in the same boat.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2021
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  29. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Of course, and hopefully more forums so that people can rip them apart too! (irony)
     
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  30. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I don't think this can be laid at Adam's team per se. From the streams (throughout 2021) it has seemed that the backlog has been in testing and release... The testing teams have their own issues (which would be an entire thread on its own) and the release team seems... Well we don't know what they're doing, or why...
     
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  31. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    The price for the DLC pack is really good, there's no doubt about it. But it was one of the first questions following the announcement - "For this price what quality will the routes have?" And we've been told they'll be on par. So they can be criticised same as the full price ones.
    I've noticed once or twice a branch going through the cab, similar to Peninsula Corridor where this happens too. Once again a little thing which could probably be fixed by one or two runs in each direction and noticing colliding trees. Not sure about the fences, didn't notice those myself.
    I meant it as missed during the development, they addressed it in both streams, that's definitely a good thing.
    Developers might not notice, but they have a bunch of in-house testers, beta testers and this presumably got past all of them. Speaks a bit more about QA than development.
     
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  32. FeralKitty

    FeralKitty Well-Known Member

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    Yes, unfortunately.

    But if the teams that developed new routes put future routes on hold to fix bugs in existing routes, no new routes would get started, because existing routes would never be done.

    It doesn’t seem logical, but consider this humorous song:
    99 little bugs in the code.

    99 little bugs.
    Take one down, patch it around.

    127 little bugs in the code...​
     
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  33. SHINO BAZ

    SHINO BAZ Well-Known Member

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    Testing sure right if you say so,but what many of you fail to understand is that what's being really "tested" is just how long can dtg lead us all on with there way of doing business when it comes to release it broken and fix it later nonsense.

    Yes i'm aware this is done by even big triple A game publishers but they have the abilities needed to get away with it currently but if dtg didn't have the train sim market to themselves they might have been gone by now.What i don't really understand is why a important top man like matt isn't trying to get the company to undersand that doing things better doing things right the frist time might mean less work on the backend and more time for new projects going forward.For any company you can make more money if people see you not only care about the profits but the products as well.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2021
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  34. FeralKitty

    FeralKitty Well-Known Member

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    We don’t know that this got past all of them. More likely that someone reported the issues, but there wasn’t time to fix them without delaying the launch.
     
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  35. Mattty May

    Mattty May Guest

    I like that :D
     
  36. FeralKitty

    FeralKitty Well-Known Member

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    What I understand is that you have an opinion, however others may not agree with your belief. That’s not a failure on their part, simply a different opinion.
     
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  37. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    The only care thus far appears to be a castration of the best bits.
     
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  38. FeralKitty

    FeralKitty Well-Known Member

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    When a developer shows up here and posts something positive, perhaps we could be appreciative rather than critical?
     
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  39. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    My wondering on this is whether the testers are PLAY TESTERS or beta testers, ie whether they're given a list of criteria to work against (beta testers) or they're told to go and find things that are messed up and report back (play testers)
    I'm betting it's the former because there are almost always (remove almost) a load of things that we as the community see in five seconds which they don't in days / weeks leading up to the stream or release.

    Then again they're probably playing on full dev builds which have their own "complications"
     
  40. Tigert1966

    Tigert1966 Well-Known Member

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    As I've said before, if you want perfect software, then you'll never get any software. Software will always be released with bugs. I work in QA (not for DTG) and raise many many bugs. They don't all get fixed. Each one is assessed for it's impact. In the case of something as complex as a game, then unless it causes serious impact to the gameplay then it's going to move down the list.

    I didn't see anything last night that stopped the game being played. In fact, I have no interest in the Rush Hour routes and even I thought it looked quite nice to play and will reconsider buying it (later after I've seen all 3).

    What I do agree is that the approach to fixing bugs could be improved. It does seem to take a very long time and you start to wonder if they will ever be fixed. If DTG were to come out and say, yes we intend to fix it or no we definitely won't, then I would be a lot happier.

    I do not buy this 'DTG's testing is poor' comment though. I don't know either way they could be good or bad, none of us know, but for sure it's the management that make the decision to publish, not the testers.
     
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  41. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    From the roadmap streams I would say there's more to their release stream than we know about. Adam says things are fixed, but we then don't see them for months. That says that there's a disconnect between devs and the people putting those fixed items out.

    We don't know HOW they test, WHEN or anything else, but we can say that their testing isn't working properly or there isn't enough time allowed for testing to do it's job. That they're still developing core systems (like train lights) two weeks before release of a route is perplexing. In fact for me train lighting should be something that's a basic core feature so trains don't have to "think" which lights are on when the train's going in which direction...
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2021
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  42. Tigert1966

    Tigert1966 Well-Known Member

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    I don't think we can even say that testing isn't working - Something is wrong in their development cycle but it might not just be Testing . Maybe Developers need to work quicker and Unit Test better. Testers can only find what Developers create.

    This all assumes you think their current releases are unacceptable. Personally I'm happy with bugs on release so long as 1) I can play the game and 2) they are fixed quickly. Currently in my opinion the wait is too long and it seems even if Adam fixes something, it takes far too long to reach us.

    Totally agree with you on the lighting though. This is pretty fundamental and the way they talk about it on Stream, by acknowledging it and then saying it's difficult, doesn't give me much confidence it will ever be fixed.
     
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  43. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I have just seen a pig fly past my window!
     
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  44. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Whilst I can't say that the testers aren't doing their job (because I don't know what job they were given to do), we can definitely say the testing system isn't implemented correctly given they're showing errors 7 days before a major release and development work is still happening after their preview that is not focussed on issues raised in that preview...

    I haven't said that. What I've said is that there are issues... I am sure those issues are not game breaking, and that some (hopefully many) will be fixed. Maybe even released by the end of next year! (again, irony)

    Agreed, and this is likely out of the hands of Adam, Matt... who knows. We don't know the WHY of it and until we do I can only reiterate that there is obviously some systemic issue with how it works, and that's likely within the procedures of DTG itself.

    I believe they're overthinking it...
     
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  45. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

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    Fairly sure the beta team are playtesters and are consulted on various things (including in planning stage - Matt said they're the ones who said to do a 314 for Cathcart, as it was originally going to be a 318), the QA team are beta testers (this bit is fairly certain as Sam said on stream many times their job is to check it physically works and you can move the train - a 50 mile straight line with no scenery would pass QA, although I think some people would question why there's no scenery, it's out of their remit).

    The problem appears to be the team get a list of these errors that 'people pick up on in 5 seconds' and simply don't have the time to fix them (not without upsetting someone in a suit looking at a graph), and therefore are in the release, causing people to complain and think the testing system is simply not there.
     
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  46. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    I agreed with complaining about BRD... that was a big cut to the overall route and a big part of RH, but starting to tear apart streams looking for bugs and crafting conspiracy theories is taking it a bit too far. NEC seems a decent route, it has its problems, fingers crossed those will be fixed post-release but it's not a rushed dumpster fire bugfest.

    You are paying less than a loco DLC for a route, almost brand new, complex safety systems, and somewhat different trains (which is more than can be said for BRD or BML).

    I think we should leave NEC alone, hope that they fix the most glaring bugs post release, and move on... there are bigger issues with RH and TSW in general IMO.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2021
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  47. AGoodJudge2

    AGoodJudge2 Active Member

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    Agreed - as long as what they say is both positive and true.
     
  48. SHINO BAZ

    SHINO BAZ Well-Known Member

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    Hmmm so paying less now means getting less,such as any imperfection with the final product.(Why are we only now hearing about this fact?)This whole thread wouldn't even have been needed.
     
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  49. Mephrite

    Mephrite Active Member

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    If you fork up Dresden, i'm totally finished with you guys!
    It better be like that!
     
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  50. JGRudnick

    JGRudnick Well-Known Member

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    I have my doubts about getting updated catenery. We are still waiting for the RS3L Matt said was coming post release on the CRR SD40
     
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