Train Interiors

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by FD1003, Sep 6, 2021.

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  1. I couldn't care less

    4.1%
  2. It's better if they are correct, but it's not that important

    22.4%
  3. They are quite important, but not a deal breaker

    28.6%
  4. Incorrect interiors would be a big immersion breaker

    18.4%
  5. Correct interiors are fundamental for my enjoyment of this game

    26.5%
  1. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    As someone that has grown up playing MSTS and RW it sounded strange to me to hear how much time building out the interior of a passenger coach (or passenger EMU) is. Obviously TSW can't use the same old system (to have a simplified interior to see through the windows and a "well modeled room" loaded if Pax view (5) is used.

    My question is not about about that though, we have seen how very similar trains can take much more resources to develop because every operator has a different interior layout, we can see this with the Talent 2 used by the Leipzig S-Bahn, DB, and VVO, this means that it will be more difficult to do more "variations" of the same train (or coach) and this can limit the diversity of train we can get for each route.

    My suggestion would be to reconsider your approach to train interiors, and possibily either simplify them or use a "generic layout" which can be shared by different operators for the same train. Using just one interior for the whole range of Talent 2s would be too unrealistic, but for example instead of creating "VVO", "DB" and "S-Bahn" you could just do a "Generic Regional" for DB and VVO and "General High Capacity" for the S-Bahn. The same generalisation could be done (for example) for the Flirts, which are used by a myriad of operators for everything from IC to suburban rail.

    The reason I've made this a poll is because I'm confident a lot of people disagree, with many loving the possibily to do more stuff in the passenger cabin (like a guard/conductor mode), and if that's the argument then, I agree. If a guard mode was in the works this is a pretty stupid idea, but unless DTG has concrete plans to have the players have to do something with the passengers, I'd say focus on the train-driving aspect, I think right now the train interiors take a disproportionate amount of resources to build for how much time players will actually spend there and interact with it.

    If you managed to read all of that, thank you and I have two more questions for you all:

    1. Did you know you can operate the passenger lights from the switches inside every DoSto coach?
    2. Would you rather have 2 trains with the correct interior (compared to a generic/non realistic one) or a new loco or different coach for example?
    I personally am very curious about the poll results, I play this game mainly as a pure train driver, but I know many people don't so it will be interesting too see the results.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2021
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  2. trainsimplayer

    trainsimplayer Well-Known Member

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    I'd take Realism/Immersion over shortcuts anyday, I'm sure many agree.

    A generic design would be a massive immersion killer in my opinion.
     
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  3. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    Good point, but I'd prefer if the shortcut was the interior rather tha having to resort to use flat out wrong trains, and have less variety in general.

    Examples are: DoStos on HHL and BR422 on SKA.

    If cutting down on the interiors would streamline a bit the process to create passengers MUs and coaches, I'm all for it.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2021
  4. breblimator

    breblimator Guest

    I think the same. For me, these interiors could be generic. I don't enjoy these luxuries while playing :)
     
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  5. ItsYa165

    ItsYa165 Well-Known Member

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    If the game is to grow in terms of gameplay options in any sort of way, interior modelling needs to be equal in quality to the exterior model. Without that, there was no point in developing Train Sim World in the first place. The game revolves around being intimate with the trains and routes rather than just being the train. That's why you can walk around on foot and do niche things like walk through the train, use the cab door, climb down and uncouple the cars by hand... even CRR has a Caboose model which you can interact with. Those added details set it aside from other train games.

    When I travel on board a train, the environment I spent my time is the passenger interior and it's mostly 387s. If I launched TSW2s Brighton Mainline and find that the quality of the interior was utter trash, I would refund it. The train is supposed to offer me head-to-toe immersion. Even Armstrong Powerhouse went through the effort of modelling the interior for the 387 and it's very convincing even though a lot of things are wrong.

    If the modelling quality stooped below that of the same content in Train Simulator, benchmarking the 387 because I'm familiar with it, the entire game is a fail. It does take a while to develop an interior for a train. But, honestly, if the quality became like how the 166 is from 2015, I don't think I would be buying the content anymore. But there are indications of the modelling improving. The seats on the 465 networker were much better than they were on the 166. It impresses me, and a good impression of the train is why I bought it. It looks right, it feels right, and it sounds right.

    Quality across the board is what TSW2 should aim for. As a game, it's still growing and people get annoyed when things they believe should be included aren't included. The fences on HS1 for instance. Those were missing and the community threw a huge fit. DTG can't turn around and say "you're demanding too much, it'll take too long"... they already knew SEH suffered a catastrophe. And when they did add the fences, they were completely wrong and were fixed through a mod for PC players. Modding here, alone, is an indicator of how important it is to some people to be accurate.
     
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  6. trainsimplayer

    trainsimplayer Well-Known Member

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    I agree with ItsYa165.

    It's better we have the right interior as well as the right train.

    The game is called Train Sim World for a reason, because it's for you to explore. Or enjoy as a passenger, and obviously drive.

    If the interior was generic it would kill the immersion inside the passenger cars, and would ruin the passenger side of things for me.

    Per a recent stream, new rolling stock will be a focus of things in the next round or two of routes, so for Germany this could include things like the other Dostos.

    So, per my first point. It's a solid 'no' on my end. If they removed the interiors we may as well rename it to "Train Simulator: Better Graphics + Walking Edition" and leave it there.
     
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  7. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    I understand and I can agree with you up to a certain degree, yes it would be nice to have realistic interiors for every train, but I still believe focus need to be into driving the train first (unless some game-mode centred around being a passenger/guard/conductor,etc was being developed), and offering good value for money second.

    The point is not to have crappy interior; but to have a compromise so that you wouldn't have to almost re-make from scratch the same train every time it's used in a different configuration. A high quality interior but that doesn't have to be the exact same used IRL (generic one)

    Sadly a big part of TSW is figuring out where to cut corners, it's such a big and comprehensive simulation that if any DLC was to be done at it's best it would take an immense amount of resource to create.

    The point of my post is, if TSW is still mainly a train-driving game with "other stuff on top" then making sure a train behaves realistically, has realistic controls and sounds good should be put before having the exact interior.

    Rush Hour is a prime example, the Class 387 and 377 are going to be almost the same driving experience, yet the Class 387 has taken almost the same resource it would have taken for them to craft a completely new train, and we have seen nothing yet, much of the new EMUs are going to be much more standardised than they were before (with many countries buying the same train for different purposes, it's going to be pretty wasteful to create a bespoke model for each and every one of them).

    I believe this is one of the reasons we don't have a 5-car VVO Talent 2. Probabily one of the reasons we didn't get the correct DoStos for HHL. What if the BR423 could sub in SKA with just a reskin instead of doing a complete remodelling of the entire train?

    AP might as well do it, if I have to pay a £20/25 Enhancment pack on top of a £10/15 train DLC it better be perfect, but this is not the quality TSW trains are going for, and if something has to be cut, I prefer to have a generic interior rather than using the wrong trains, having missing trains, or take away resources from modelling new trains. Paying for the same experience again and again because "it's not just copy/pasting" gets annoying pretty quickly.

    I could say the same thing for the loco interiors being blocked off.

    I know I am not the best english writer (or writer in general), but could you point to where I ever wrote to go back to the TS system? My suggestion is to use a generic interior model instead of having to create a new one for every operator and configuration of the train.

    I'm talking about the VVO Talent having the same interior as the DB talent, and the Köln S-Bahn 423 having the same interior as the Munich one.

    Right now in order to have a BR423 for SKA to the BRD standards it would require to almost completely rebuild a new train, which in my opinion, given the limited use of the interior in the first place, it's pretty wasteful in my opinion
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2021
  8. trainsimplayer

    trainsimplayer Well-Known Member

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    It was a bit of sarcasm.
    My point here was;
    The main point of TSW is to enable the immersion of being able to ride as a passenger, explore the station, etc.

    If we ended up with generic interiors, that immersion is down the drain. Then it would be somewhat comparable to TS.
     
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  9. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    The interior is always going to be the correct one for one variation of the train, otherwise DTG would need to design the internal layout. It’s easier to copy a real one than to do that. What you are really suggesting is just using the first one built for every variation thereafter. That wouldn’t work for the Dostos issue as the doors were in a different place, so a redesign would have to be done anyway. The feedback and fallout from that shows that people want authentic trains and that extends to the interior layout. Making an incorrect high door Dosto layout would be as much work as making the correct one. It was an all or nothing decision. Different configurations of Talent 2’s have differences to the whole model of the train not just the interiors.

    The player can go inside the trains and having the correct interior is the right thing to do if it is practical. It usually comes down to a choice for DTG of using an existing train or making a new one and if they make a new one they should make it properly. It’s what they do. Not making a correct interior isn’t going to lead to other improvements elsewhere. It wouldn’t lead to a bigger focus on the driving of the train as the artists making the interiors don’t do the driving part of the simulation. The train cabs are already the most detailed part of the train interiors so the focus is already on the driving experience.

    And hold on to your hats for new play modes coming that will probably include something more for the passenger coaches. There’s already a ticket verification machine on the platforms in the new route. If that’s not a hint that something is coming then I’m reading things wrong.
     
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  10. Maik Goltz

    Maik Goltz Well-Known Member

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    As a developer of trains for TS1 and now TSW i can totally understand what FD1003 want to say. Its quite simple to understand at least. The more precision you call from the trains, the shorter the list of possible and doable trains for TSW gets. Simple "game" that we play there.

    Example? My upcoming Vossloh G6 should have the Vossloh branding on it. We asked Vossloh and they denied. No idea why. Maybe they had a bad day because the allowed it in 2013 for the TS1 version. With your requirements and demands to the game, the G6 would not come as a DLC then at all. But i decided to simply scrap the logos out and bring it without them. The only way to get a G6 into the game yet. If this will be a deal-breaker for the players (customers) then this might be the first and last DLC from me, because this happens more often than you think that a company don't wont to see their logos in a game. And same could happen with a passenger interior if there is something that needs a licence or any approval.
     
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  11. breblimator

    breblimator Guest

    For PC this will be 'moded' fast, I think. Let's hope, console players will be understanding. This is not a problem for me - the quality of the model as a whole is what counts.
     
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  12. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    That’s an instance where it is not possible to have something accurately depicted but the premise here was to not do interiors to save on development time, thinking that it may lead to a better simulation or more useable controls in the cab where they player might spend more time. I doubt you would throw some random generic seating into a train model you were doing if it were possible to do it correctly. Licensing would be a legitimate reason to make a more generic version of something.
     
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  13. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    It wouldn't be a huge game changer, but let's say they find a good potential for a new DLC with a Regional Express Talent 2, should they build another Talent from scratch? Not build the route because the Talent is already in-game? What about the BR422 and 423 which can have different interiors based on where they operate?

    Let's say they found a way to sub the Munich BR423 on SKA where the BR422 has never run IRL - can it be acceptable if it's just a re-skin instead of a big re-modeling job - that's the point.

    Let's say a new Stuttgart DLC comes out, would you rather see a BR423 model built from scratch if that means getting the same MSB BR146, and the same Dostos? What if those resources could lead to creating a new loco, or a new coach? If what DTG tells us is true, the difference in amount of work needed is not that much. I'd rather have a reskinned Munich 423 and a BR440 for example, rather than a re-modeled 100% correct Stuttgart BR423.

    On one hand they have no problem layering and subbing unrealistic trains everywhere, but when it comes to the VVO Talent 2 that's when they have to rebuild it from scratch. Why? Is it actually that important?

    Again, I don't believe that just not focusing as much on the interior would mean going back to getting two brand new trains every route or something like that, but it could help streamline the development of some DLCs, especially since we are only going to get more repetition as more and more trains are built.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2021
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  14. Maik Goltz

    Maik Goltz Well-Known Member

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    Not random, that's true. But if the interior is to complex or basically not doable in a respective amount of time, i would decide to not make the train at all. A lot of such decision were made by me already over the years. If the audience would not be that harsh and demanding, there would be way more created than actually is available. The licencing was just one example how this can prevent a DLC from appearing at all.
     
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  15. ItsYa165

    ItsYa165 Well-Known Member

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    For example, the corner cut for Glasgow Cathcart Circle was not having the franchisee TOC labelled onto the publicly available Scotrail livery. That degree of corner cutting is absolutely fine because it doesn't ruin the game. If it was just a blue 313 however, serious problems would arise.
     
  16. trainsimplayer

    trainsimplayer Well-Known Member

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    It's probably also worth noting that this also happened on Train Simulator's Fife Circle Line & Suburban Glasgow NW routes.

    It's mostly because the door stickers are the only part not under Transport Scotland's ownership, who make the brand near enough freely available.

    - Just to fill people in.
     
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