Train Sim World 2 - Building Brighton Main Line

Discussion in 'Dovetail Live Article Discussion' started by DTG Natster, Jun 4, 2021.

  1. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I don't know how the interaction works between train and platform but I would imagine that needs work from Adam's team to make the platforms compatible in some instances.
    Then again I don't know how it works in real life (ie how does the driver or guard select the first 5 cars or the first 3)
     
  2. smugstarlord#4202

    smugstarlord#4202 Well-Known Member

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    In which case, DTG should drop the "whole summer long" tag
     
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  3. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Haven't seen them use it recently, and don't expect them to go back and change what they did months ago
     
  4. bakedpotatos.jm

    bakedpotatos.jm Well-Known Member

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    And it is still correct we have been waiting "All Summer Long" for them to fix the game so I can even play it on Xbox with out the textures crapping out every 45 seconds.
     
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  5. trainsimgaming1001

    trainsimgaming1001 Well-Known Member

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    DTG really should have been honest that it would go into October, thus, post-summer.

    I knew as soon as the BRD release date was announced that there was no way on earth that RH would be finished before the 21st of September
     
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  6. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    Well im not gonna complain as long this delays keeps the quality up. Nobody is patient these days...,

    If its about the communication, there are people complaining no matter what kind of news.
     
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  7. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Do you mean "whenever DTG change any plans they absolutely must tell us"?
     
  8. LWDAdnane

    LWDAdnane Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't say it's impatience. We were promised a specific release window, and everyone is right to expect delivery within that window, because, well, we were told that's when the product would arrive. People being upset that the product is being delivered beyond that window have every right to be unhappy about their product being delivered late.

    I'm not trainsimgaming, but will answer nonetheless and say yes. When you order a product online for delivery, you expect it to come as the site says, 2-3 days for example. If the delivery is delayed for 2 weeks, would you not expect to be told? Or would you prefer to continue waiting, not having a clue when your delivery will arrive? This doesn't apply to every little update DTG plan, however it does apply to everything Rush Hour related.
     
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  9. trainsimgaming1001

    trainsimgaming1001 Well-Known Member

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    This is the thing with D T G, they cut the branches to Riesa Dresden then expected people to pay more, now they have delayed the last part of rush hour, aka, the summer update, out of summer
     
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  10. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Difference is we haven't been given a definitive date.
    Some people are hung up on "summer" because two months ago (or more) the PR put that on the poster.
    Personally I DON'T get hung up on such things so my answer would be "no, I wouldn't expect to be told that an unnamed date has changed"
    I am happy to patiently wait until they announce the first preview stream (which will hopefully be announced later today when they put out next week's stream listing, but again happy to wait)
     
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  11. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    This is the thing with DTG
    They often say what they want to do before checking whether they're capable of doing it within their own timeframes
    That's a failing in programming and announcement. The additional branches never got past the planning stage.
    Personally I would prefer if they gave the outline in planning *Riesa Dresden", then when it got to maybe one month before publishing they give the additional detail (route length, assets included etc)

    It would avoid the wolfpack jumping on them for saying too much and not delivering on their initial thoughts.
     
  12. LWDAdnane

    LWDAdnane Well-Known Member

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    Summer is the definitive date, so anytime within the summer months/days is acceptable. Anything beyond 21st September is no longer released in "Summer". If you don't get hung up on things such as release dates then that's a completely fine, subjective matter, but irregardless of your standing, people have a right to have certain expectations.
     
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  13. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely. Everyone gets to set their own expectations of THEMSELVES... setting expectations of others is where the issues (disappointment etc) begin
     
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  14. bart2day

    bart2day Well-Known Member

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    But people didn’t set their own expectations, DTG set them themselves by saying ‘coming this summer’. If DTG had just said coming ‘later this year’, nobody would have been complaining. If they hadn’t announced the Meissen and Flughaven branches nobody would have been complaining when they were cut either.

    You can’t announce things and then be surprised that people are disappointed whenever plans change, but DTG have a knack of doing just that. They can’t even bring themselves to be upfront and admit London-Brighton has been delayed to autumn. If you say summer, people expect summer, not October, even if releasing in October may improve the quality of the product.
     
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  15. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    Im sure a release on the exact announced time of an unfinished product is in nobodys interesst.

    Bugfixing is more complicated and the amount of annoyed customers will spam the forum posts. Ironicly many of the players are gonna write devs should take their time and release a finished product.

    So no, i stick with my opinion to just be patient. In the meantime i can start to make speed charts based on real cab rides.
    Plenty of things to do XD
     
  16. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Yep, that they did. And they've since said that the time between releases will be different for BML. What they haven't specifically explained is "so this will mean we missed our stated aim of in the summer, and obviously we're going to sacrifice a goat"
    It's the expectation of the latter that people seem to be requiring, whereas I don't. I know best laid plans don't always work out and I watch as many streams as I can to keep up with what's actually happening (again, DTG are quite bad at communication) and my expectations of DTG are low (five or six years of following their "progress" will do that to you...)

    Agreed, and this is why DTG should NOT give detail of their plans until they're firm, but then of course the community will have a go at them for not being open etc
    Can't win for losing
     
  17. Tank621

    Tank621 Well-Known Member

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    At the end of the day, any time frame given is an estimation, if they waited until they were 100% certain of when something would be released then we'd have no idea when anything would be coming until it was complete. Waiting until everything is 'firm' is impossible all it takes is one issue in testing to pop up that need imminent resolution prior to release and then your plans are all thrown off course.

    They aren't lying to us because things have changed. They have told us that the situation has changed, there is nothing else they can really do.

    It's all very well saying they should wait until they are absolutely certain but that is impossible to do until you have already done it. Even then, the various platforms will be in control of the exact timing.

    The quote 'no plan survives first contact with the enemy' comes to mind. To put it simply it can only take one problem to crop up before your firm plans suddenly stop being so firm.

    In an ideal world, developers (not just DTG this applies to all developers) would be able to say with absolute certainty.

    We don't live in an ideal world.
     
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  18. trainsimgaming1001

    trainsimgaming1001 Well-Known Member

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    Despite how obvious it is, Dovetail still refuses to admit that rush hour is going over summer, unless their definition of summer is until November or something. Dovetail really should not announce things they are not sure they can deliver until they are 100% sure it will happen. Think of it: The Editor, the expansion of Bakerloo Services, the 313 going down, the BRD branches, and the price of Rush Hour. If they had originally said that they aimed for release in summer but rush hour may go into october people would not be this angry. Had dovetail not said the BRD would have loads of branches, people would be happier that there were no branches to be cut. We better get a good 313 and BML!
     
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  19. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    Cool your jets everyone. It's not late yet.
     
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  20. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Dovetail never really announced the editor. They said they were working on it even to the point of doing a video on how far they'd got, but they never set a date or firm commitment. And then they changed tack from being PC focussed to being "all platform" so that feel by the wayside
    The expansion of Bakerloo services they're still working on, again never seen a date for completion on that
    The 313 "going down"? Again, never seen a date for completion on the 313
    BRD branches were discussed rather than announced. Everyone's jumped on the branches as "being removed" when in fact the line wasn't in production when they were discussed as possibilities
    The price of rush hour deffo was a mistake on DTG's part and again, they shouldn't be giving out detail until they're sure (to avoid posts like this)
     
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  21. Cramnor

    Cramnor Well-Known Member

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    I strongly disagree with this statement! I actually don't like the changes that were made to the roadmap (including things only later when they are almost done) because of comments like this. People are SO impatient and don't understand that this is an outlook, that outlines the plans, but is of course subject to change. The only thing these comments achieve is that DTG closes down more and more again, sharing less information - and I couldn't even blame them, that would be my reaction as well. So calm down, the plan was summer, it will be delayed which was communicated, enjoy the stuff you have at the moment and once BML is ready it will come out.
     
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  22. LWDAdnane

    LWDAdnane Well-Known Member

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    The branches were announced, they were even on the steam page at one point. A lot of things that DTG had discussed and never came into fruition haven't received such a reaction, because people understood that they were never promised. But those lines were literally announced as coming with the route, before being subsequently removed.
     
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  23. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    I just hope DTG do a good job of BML. I really don’t want to be watching a livestream to find out within 5 minutes of watching it there are bugs or incomplete fixes. Furthermore, I hope we don’t get the ‘release now, maybe fix later in 6-12 months time’ fiasco.
     
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  24. LWDAdnane

    LWDAdnane Well-Known Member

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    You'd think by now DTG would've changed their approach to upcoming DLC, and showcase them in streams at least a month prior to release, so that we can help them identify bugs and inaccuracies, and they in turn will have plenty of time to fix it all and release the product on time. It's a shame that we're still going through the same old cycle of showcasing DLC just a few weeks before release, to be told the plethora of issues we identify will be fixed in an upcoming update.
     
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  25. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I see a lot of things touted as "promised" and even more complained about (presumably because people like to complain and are very expectant)
     
  26. LWDAdnane

    LWDAdnane Well-Known Member

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    People most certainly like to complain on here, I agree. Even the term "promised", without a release date, will have people complaining. That I think is unnecessary.
     
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  27. trainsimgaming1001

    trainsimgaming1001 Well-Known Member

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    Intresting Note from todays article: Additional layers are also added for a variety of units and locomotives, making this an incredibly busy route at certain times of the day. What layers could be added? Sure, probably railtours, but it said both 'Units' and 'Locomotives'. I would expect maybe they have secretly been working on a 455 or 442? I did notice in the image this: A class 465 in Southeastern Livery
     
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  28. Tank621

    Tank621 Well-Known Member

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    I'm guessing for the moment this is referring to Railtours / Freight services and GWR / Southeastern elements on the route. I suspect any brand new locos they have lined up for this will be DLC and so it'll be a while before we hear anything about them.
     
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  29. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    The core update and Boston were released in August. "Coming this summer" box ticked. End of.
     
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  30. bart2day

    bart2day Well-Known Member

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    What about the ‘All summer long’ box then? More like ‘All summer and Autumn long’.
     
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  31. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    "All summer long" was blown when nothing released on June 21..... :cool:
     
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  32. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    I find it a bit odd that DTG let vital staff go on holiday when they are in a busy period. My experience from employment was that when it got busy with contracts or orders everyone mucks in with overtime as well.

    Staff not needed can go on holiday but important staff? Can't get my head around that. And I thought the whole point of these Roadmaps was for DTG being more open. People have been looking forward to the Brighton route and are disappointed with the delays, these things happen fair enough although they do happen a lot with DTG, no?

    And if I was a betting man I would say the BML is not coming in Summer but is a few more weeks off yet, my point is DTG know it is going to be delayed and know for how long so why not come clean a few weeks ago and say it looks like the Brighton route may take longer instead of giving the impression that it still might come in the summer.

    I find people on the whole will forgive the delays but not being lied to. If it does come before the 21st/22nd Sept then kudos to DTG but I would guess nearer to 21st October. I find it funny how some people jump on others and say they are impatient when we are still waiting for fixes after months and how long has it been since the 313 was announced?
     
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  33. trainsimgaming1001

    trainsimgaming1001 Well-Known Member

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    If anyone is curious, the 313 was announced on August 18.


    2020. Yes, a WHOLE YEAR. They were probably working on it for ages before as well
     
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  34. KoeleKoen

    KoeleKoen Well-Known Member

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    I don't mind a delay if it helps the quality..
    But that being said i love the irony that the route with the theme "summer" didn't make it for release in summer.
     
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  35. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    All staff are vital and important, and all staff are entitled to their time off. Of course there are some people in power who would gladly put children back up chimneys and erode any rights workers have but luckily there are also some companies that care about their workers and treat them like humans and not pieces of machinery. Customers making staff feel bad for taking their holidays is something I’ve never seen before. I hope everyone enjoys their time off. Making a DLC isn’t like putting handles on buckets, it’s skilled work and everyone has a different skill set, so there’s no mucking in with overtime to get an order over the line.
     
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  36. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

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    Which is impressive given it was under In Planning on the first roadmap.
     
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  37. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    Its really not up to us to judge dtgs employee planning.
    What if those employee got cutted their summer holiday 1 year ago? We dont know whats behind, so pointless to discuss that.

    Now they have 2 routes to inplement the 313, so i guess they were working on the class 313 same time as rush hour.
     
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  38. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    We don't know what's been done with the 313 (if anything) but people do like to continue posting about it. I guess DTG will have to rethink at what stage they put these things on the roadmap in future because 12 months is a long time for some people
     
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  39. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

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    I'm glad I'm not the only one that read this quote as shockingly neoliberal. The developers are real people and have lives outside of this forum unlike what feels like some of us here.
    Cheers
     
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  40. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    In the UK holidays are a right protected by law. Each person is required to be given 28 days annual leave, most of which is discretionary (the person's choice). The only time this can be less is when a contract is part time or works "pro rata" but even then the operative must be given a percentage of their 28 day allowance subject to their times worked. The only time when holidays are not enshrined in law are self employed, company directors or those on flexible contracts where they can choose (in theory) when to work or not.
    In other words, DTG don't really have a choice whether people take holidays or not, although they could ask their staff not to take certain dates due to commercial reasons
    (note the above may not apply in the case of certain first responders or military personnel, but that's not the case here anyway)

    The latter part of this sentence is the most salient. DTG almost always do things cack-handed, back to front or get it not quite right. If you deal with things on that basis then none of this is surprising...

    They did, when Matt said that the gap between Dresden and Brighton would be longer than that between Boston and Dresden.


    People jump on DTG for the fixes releases
    People jump on DTG for the 313 not ever having had a release date
    People jump on DTG for what's on or off the roadmap, the issues in releases, the mess up of the UE4.26 update, floating rocks, angled cranes, incorrect station buildings, brakes which won't release (I mean honestly I could be here all day...)
    The point is that if we KNOW that DTG are likely to say one thing, change this some time down the road and then get it 85% accurate at the end people would get a lot less upset. I do sometimes wonder if they are as fastidious in their own lives as they expect from DTG...
     
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  41. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    I must say I'm frankly embarrassed that any forum member would criticize employees of DTG for taking vacations or time away from work for personal reasons. .And that criticism, if only by implication, is aimed at a particular employee. Let me speak plainly:

    It's none of your business

    How that company runs its affairs is it's business.

    Please, choose to be a consumer of its products or not. Making personal comments about its staff is cringeworthy.

    Now I've got that off my chest, let's get back to discussing London-Brighton.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2021
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  42. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    That's rather amazing. Not so much the quantity (although here in the US 14 days is typical, and not mandated by law), but the fact that employees can choose to bugger off whenever they please. Here you have to request dates, which are granted or not depending on how busy your employer is and whether they can spare you.
     
  43. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    I hate to prolong this discussion but I'm sure DTG's employees request time off just like people in the US and everywhere else.
    Can we stop worrying about this irrelevant matter?
     
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  44. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Last comment on this from me. Yes you would have to "book time off", but the employer has to have a very good reason why not...
     
  45. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    Wow! I can't believe suggesting a bit of hard work at a time which is crucial to DTG has got so many people throwing their toys out their prams.

    The games industry relies on sales so it makes perfect economic sense to get your work force to pull together to get the job done. No-one is suggesting denying anyone any holidays but to take them after the work is done.
    Taking time off for 'personal reasons' you what? I never mentioned that all, are you on medication? Obviously if they have 'personal reasons' of course.

    Maybe DTG would get more sales if they concentrated key workforce personnel on their product rather than let holidays disrupt the release, this maybe why there are so many bugs and delays. Other companies do not follow this practice and seem to do well.

    You are trying to make it sound like DTG are working hard all the time and need holiday to stave of exhaustion, FFS. DTG is a business like any other and can only thrive through sales, delays and bugs caused missed sales I'm sure even you can get that one. There are plenty of quiet periods in the yearly cycle so all I'm saying perhaps key staff should take their holidays then so when it comes to releasing stuff key personnel are there. Is that so wrong in this day and age? Wow!
     
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  46. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

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    Someone from PR not taking time off would solve bugs and issues how?

    EDIT: I'm assuming we're talking about one of the CMs? Also how did we get onto this?
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2021
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  47. Tank621

    Tank621 Well-Known Member

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    One thing, when is 'the work' done?

    I mean, is it once a route is released? Surely post-release support is as important or even more so. Even then, they are still working on other aspects of the game all the time, which is often no less important than the latest shiny new release. The work doesn't just stop every time someone goes "right well that's done" so then everyone can go on holiday.

    People take time off work all the time and yes, sometimes it is at slightly inconvenient times but it is your right to take time off work and often these circumstances can be outside of our control.

    Do any of us know why anyone took time off? No

    Do any of us need to know why anyone took time off work? No

    It has nothing to do with us and I think it is sad that you seem to believe that have a right to dictate when people are allowed to have time off. I hate to say it, but from where I'm sitting it seems selfish I'm afraid. You have no idea why anyone took time off and nor should you, it has nothing to do with you whatsoever.
     
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  48. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    What has happened to common sense? No-one is criticising or denying people taking time off. In the real world if your firm has a busy period then those people who are vital see the job until it is done that is how business works. If it wasn't then businesses would go under. Do you think that giving people holidays at their busiest time would make them more successful.

    This practice in the games industry is known as the 'crunch' and it is a very important time for games developers. I will be the first to admit there is a right way and wrong way of implementing the 'crunch', I think Activision takes it too far and didn't they get into trouble?

    This has nothing to do with dictating to anyone why they take time off and as I have repeated myself saying taking time off for personal reasons is not affected at all. But is vital staff are allowed to take holiday when they are needed most just for the sake of taking holiday, you actually think that is good working practice?

    When the 'work is done' means (as you seem to be struggling with this) is when the game is released and as for support that is usually done by a different team. But you seem to be suggesting that they have no right to take Holiday after getting the game released? Who are you to dictate when people can take time off, you monster, LOL

    No-one is saying the job is completed once it is released as then the bugs need fixing which as I said is a different team usually and DTG can follow any practice they want to, in the end it is how much they sell that will govern how successful that company is not at how much 'holiday' is given.

    It has nothing to do to me why someone took time off? WTF are you going on about? I don't want to know, I was merely suggesting it would be wiser to not let vital staff take holidays in a vital time before release. How do you know the reason was just for a 'holiday' or staying at home for a week or two? How do you think these smaller developers survive? By working hard or taking holidays? I don't know why they take holidays either but I bet it is by working hard.
     
  49. Tank621

    Tank621 Well-Known Member

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    Of course, there is the other practical side of things, which is that if staff are all working during 'vital time' then they're all going to take their holiday at the same time. Especially in a company with so many concurrent projects of which any number could be in a 'vital' phase of development at any given time.

    Then there is of course this idea of 'crunch' culture in the games industry which is widely recognised as one of the most toxic aspects of modern games development impacting people's sleep schedules, pulling people away from families and having a significant impact on employees mental health all of which has an impact on the eventual product. You acknowledge that companies take it 'too far' but it isn't an isolated problem that affects some companies that implement 'crunch' badly, it is a massive cultural problem within the industry of employees being exploited, even when they aren't forced into it.

    'Hard work' should never come at the cost of employee wellbeing, no matter what. A healthy, (both physically and mentally) well-rested workforce is always going to be far more effective than an overworked, stressed and exhausted one, that is why holidays are important, especially in a high intensity 'vital' period in development.

    Anyway, shall we talk about trains now?
     
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  50. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

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    I think it would be best to just leave it at that or risk opening up this thread to a political debate about unions and workers' rights. I have a lot to say on this matter but this is not the place for it.

    Cheers
     
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