Guide Riesa-dresden: Tips On Driving Freight Trains Realistically.

For those that might not know where all the relevant switches are, I thought I'd describe where to find them below.

Locomotive GPR-selector.
If the train you are driving, as described here, has the brakes in "all G", then the locomotive brake has to be changed from the default position of P to G. This selector switch is found at the wall behind the drivers seat, as shown below.


Wagon brake setting selectors
On Nahverkehr Dresden the freight trains are already set up automatically with the wagons in their correct brake setting, but in the future there might be trains that don't have the brakes set correctly. In this case you can find them on the under carriage of the wagon as shown below


Freight wagon Empty/Load switch
Some wagons have manual Empty/Load selectors that change the brake force of the wagon. This selector should be in the correct position depending on the wagons weight but if you need to change this for some reason then you can find them on the under carriage of the wagon (if the wagon has this sort of switch) as seen below


These switches should be in the "Empty" position if the wagon weight is below the lower of the 3 printed numbers and it should be in the "Full Load" position if the wagon weight is above the same number.

The two top numbers are the braked weight in corresponding position.

 

Thanks for the explanation.

 

Let me rephrase my question (sorry for being so nitpicky about this, but I need this for the spreadsheet).
I understand that PZB U is enforced if at least one of the following three conditions is met:
1) BrH < 66
2) Fahrplan is set in "G"
3) train weighs more than 1,600 tons
Is it also enforced, if none of those three conditions is met, but all brakes in the train are (for what reasons whatsoever) set to "G" anyway (or are you required to ask for a Fahrplan set in "G" in this case, before you can run the train)?
Do the same rules apply for whether to use the "G" numbers or the "P/R" numbers in the brake table? Or is this decided according to different rules?

 

If all of the wagons are set to "G", for example on older/special wagons that only have G-brakes, then you need to use PZB U.

EDIT: In this situation I would assume (but don't know for sure) that the locomotive has to be in G-brake as well.

 

Regarding 2), the Fahrplan is irrelevant in this context. It is only relevant what you have your brakes set to on your train. If the timetable says P, but your train is set in G ==> PZB = U (I hope I understood the question correct?!)

And yes, strictly speaking you need a new timetable in this example. Also for the other way around.

Regarding 3), there are exceptions to this, as can be seen in the table, however, they will never have an influence on TSW, hence you can set your spreadsheet up as proposed by you.

I am not sure I understand your last question, but the numbers in the brake table should always stay relevant for the type of train you are driving. Remember, if you drive LL (first five cars in G), your train is still considered P, but you have to calculate your brh accordingly, which means they will be less, as if those cars would be in P (sorry, hope this all makes sense, seems complicated to explain)

 

Wait, now I'm confused Are you saying that in Lange Lok, no matter what the BrH is, the PZB Zugart is forced to U?

 

No, sorry, you we’re to quick reading it I corrected it already LL is still a P timetable

 

Hehe, gotcha

 

Thank you for the answers.
Now I am quite sure that I won't miss a case in that PZB U needs to be enforced. (The exception for the UIC-AK couplers I will not model before it is implemented in the game, that is correct.)
And I guess that you keep running a "G" train (and stay PZB U), even if you make use of the exception that you can have up to 12 axles running in "P" if your train is not longer than 700 meters, no?
I got a prototype version of the sheet running in a Google Sheets version. If anyone is interested in giving it a once-over, let me know, then I will pm a link.

 

Are you quite sure that on the in-game graphical models of the wagons, these selectors reflect the actual brake setting? Or are they simply fixed bitmaps that never change, like the many inoperable switches in the cab?

 

Strictly speaking, no. However, in this case you would have so many cars in G that you will hardly get a brh > 66.

And heck, yes, I would be interested to try it out

 

Yes, it was advertised by DTG as a new feature of this route. Matt mentioned it during a stream, as far as I remember…

 

I'm quite sure. Don't ask me how I know though

EDIT: It's easy to test though. Take the Habbiins-train and perform a brake test with the locomotive in "G" (and hence every vehicle in the train in "G"), then go back to every wagon and set the brakes to "P" and do another brake test and compare the difference in stopping distance. You will also see that the brake cylinder pressure increases/decreases much slower on the locomotive in "G" compared to "P".

To test the empty/load-switch you can take a BR363 with Zacns wagons and perform brake tests with the wagons in either "Empty" or "Full Load" and the locomotive brake released, and compare the results. The differences will be significant.

You can even pull the distributor release valves in the wagons and try to brake an "unfitted" train, good luck stopping that in time

For the BR185, BR143 and BR146 you can also set the locomotives to "R" and notice the difference in brake cylinder pressure at full service compared to in "P" or "G". For the BR143 you'll notice that in "R" the brake cylinder pressure is 5.5 bar above 50 km/h or 70 km/h depending on whether you reached above 70 km/h since then you'll be in "Hohe Abbremsung" (high brake). When the locomotive decelerates below 50 km/h the brake cylinder pressure drops to 3.8 bar since you're now in "Niedrige Abbremsung" (low brake).

 

I wanted to reemphasise a little bit what we have learned on this (very interesting) thread and put this into perspective to the real world performance of a train. What does it actually mean, performance wise, setting a train from G to P, or driving with high number of BrH, or a very low number of BrH.

I will show a few examples, based on the real life performance of cargo trains between Riesa and Dresden. I am using an official DBNetz tool, publicly available, called Trassenfinder. This tool uses the real life data of all German routes, giving you all sorts of details. It calculates driving times, however, stops short of giving you an actual time table, as this is then a service you would need to pay for. But the data it uses is the same. You can play around with it on www.trassenfinder.de. Unfortunately, this is only in German, so far. DBNetz is constantly translating more and more of their tools into English (the register of infrastructure being one example), trassenfinder will follow, eventually.

In my first example, I have calculated the time it takes to drive from Riesa to Dresden (forcing the programme to use the same tracks we are using on BRD), using a Train, hauled by a BR185, 1.200t heavy, 600m long, BrH 75, max speed is 100.

Setting it to G will result in a travel time of 44 minutes
https://trassenfinder.de/#/route/eb22d4e4fa923ffc

Setting it to P will result in 41 minutes.
https://trassenfinder.de/#/route/2d93a5fc1f0e004

I would assume that the reasons are mainly lower braking curves at PZB relevant speed changes, due to PZB mode U used and longer brake release times (at starting point).


The second example takes the same train, however, this time always set to G, with different BrH.

The first one we have seen above, BrH set to 75 resulted in 44 minutes travel time.

Setting the BrH to only 55 results in 47 minutes journey time
https://trassenfinder.de/#/route/aeec5a0fbd2b16ff

Again, another 3 minutes slower. It must have to do with local speed restrictions, due to the topography of the route, making it impossible to run 100kmh at certain points along the route (otherwise stopping in time would be impossible). Basically, the driver will have three speeds given to him, track speed, signal speed and time table speed. Ideally they are all the same, however, if they differ, the lowest one is to be used.


In the third example I have set the weight of the train to 2.500t, left it in G and 55BrH. Now the journey takes 49 minutes
https://trassenfinder.de/#/route/9bce1e87d8f22935

I am associating this additional 2 minutes purely to slower acceleration, as you stopping time should be the same, based on the same BrH. If you add another BR185 in a double traction, journey time would be reduced to 46 minutes.


Anyway, hope that was interesting, thought that would fit quite nicely into this thread. I hope the links stay valid, never tried them before. When using Trassenfinder, there are a few things to look out for, making it probably quite difficult fo

 

Can anyone explain what exact conditions need to be met that a loaded car with an inscription as shown below in the picture can run 120 km/h in a train on tracks in Germany?

 

If it contains "SS" at the end of the name it can run at 120 km/h in a loaded configuration (not necessarily at max gross weight though). Only one S means it is limited to 100 km/h loaded. The empty max speed will be printed below the "S".

For DRA it is as follows:

Habbiins 344: 120 km/h when empty, 100 km/h when loaded (any load).
Zacns: 120 km/h when empty, 100 km/h when loaded (any load).
Laaers 560: 120 km/h when empty, 100 km/h when loaded (any load).
Sggmrss: 120 km/h when empty *and* loaded up to 119.5 tonnes gross weight.

 

in the form of a reminder - in such a noble thread it may be worth it:
freight_wagon_catalog_v2011-data.pdf (dbcargo.com)

I only doubt which exact versions of these wagons are in the game. This has an impact, for example, brake weight.

source

 

Thank you for the answers.

My question was specificially because of the three stars (***) on the right side of the Lastgrenzenraster. The description in Appendix 11 of the GCU seems to say that those cars (Laaers 560) can run 120 km/h, even when loaded, if the train meets certain conditions, no?

 

Yes, you're correct. I didn't catch that.

"***: Maximum load in t (tonnes) for wagons authorised to run in trains up to 120 km/h with a brake that does not meet all the requirements for SS conditions. The wagons must be fitted with an automatic load-proportional braking system."

The wagon can run at up to 120 km/h with a load limit of 34.0 tonnes. I'll update the OP. Thanks for the correction!

 

But only under certain conditions, right? From what I could find online, it seems that the stars are only important for traffic outside of Germany (where different rules for vmax are enforced) and when travelling under LZB supervision since you‘re not dependent on track-side signals.

My understanding is that an S** or S*** car has vmax of 100km/h when loaded while in Germany and travelling under PZB supervision. Is that correct?

 

p.14

but ***?

 

Are you referring to the quote
"For wagons carrying the * * and * * * signs, RUs shall define the necessary rules for the correct formation of the train (achieving the right brake percentage, timetable changes where appropriate, etc.)."?

You have to remember that even if the S*** regulation raised the loaded wagon Vmax to 120 km/h, that does not mean that the train can travel at that speed. Perhaps there are extra DB/German regulations that I'm not aware of but it seems to me that
"RUs shall define the necessary rules for the correct formation of the train (achieving the right brake percentage, timetable changes where appropriate" is already taken care of by the Mbr/PZB Zugart Vmax.

 

What I meant is that the the vmax of S** cars is not magically raised because of the stars since the BrH, as you say, will not be enough to travel at those speeds.

One thing that got me curious during my research though is freight trains and LZB. This is taking the thread a bit off-topic, but would you happen to know how vmax is decided for LZB sections? For example, would a train made up of a Br 185 and a number of loaded S** cars be allowed to travel at 120km/h (seeing how track-side signals are irrelevant) or would vmax still be calculated based on BrH and gradients?

 

Okay, that sounds good! So the Laars 560 can run 120 km/h up to a max load of 34 t, as long as there are sufficient regulations by the railway undertaking (RU, in German EVU = Eisenbahnverkehrsunternehmen, for our trains in DRA most probably DB Cargo AG). And those would be the regulations for brake settings, brake tables and PZB, mostly from Ril 915?

According to § 35 Abs. 4 Satz 3 EBO (the German railway construction and service statute) a train running under LZB can have longer brake distances than the usual 1,000 meters distant signal distance. So the usual brake tables for a 1,000 meter braking distance don't apply, what usually allows a higher speed. The Vmax for the cars should still be the same.

 

Based on my earlier post that I quoted above the BR185 + Laaers train should probably be able to achieve 120 km/h on the main line and 110 km/h on the avoiding line. This assumes that R/P Fahrplan is close enough to the P Fahrplan for freight trains (which are most likely going to be way longer). I don't have detailed knowledge in that area though.

Regarding LZB Vmax, these are completely different due to the much longer warning distance. I'm not sure of the exact details regarding LZB but I presume it has access to stored braking curves for different BrH *or* it uses average deceleration values for each BrH. This BrH is then input into the computer together with mass, length and lowest Vmax which then calculates a Vmax for the train that probably changes during the journey. Usually the required deceleration value is quite conservative in LZB but you can input 12 different deceleration values afaik, with the lowest one as low as ~ 0.11 m/s^2. All this is to say that there are plenty of situations where a freight train can run at 120 km/h even if the BrH is not sufficient to run at that speed under PZB.

Seeing as it is possible for ICE3 trains to have a stopping distance up to 15 km (heavy descending grade and service brake) from 300 km/h, it seems likely that whatever limits the Vmax of freight trains is not due to the safety requirement of the stopping distance but rather something like congestion (since no freight train *in service* will need 15 km to stop from 120 km/h).

 

As much as I understand it, under LZB the train (unlike the driver under PZB) does not only "know" the status of the next signal block, but the status of a couple of signaling blocks up to about 10 km ahead. Combined with all the track data (esp gradients), the LZB computer can "use" the track in front of the train that it knows as "free" as braking distance and calculate the highest speed that the train can go and still be able to stop within this "free" distance. In principle, there should be no difference between a freight train or an ICE. The freight train will be limited by the Vmax of its cars though (that those can't exceed without running the risk of derailment, regardles of any braking distance).
And of course there is the general speed limit of 120 km/h for freight trains in § 40 Abs. 2 Nr. 2 EBO, that applies to freight trains running under LZB as well (unlike the corresponding speed limit for passenger trains, that is raised from 160 km/h under PZB to 250 km/h under LZB, § 40 Abs. 2 Nr. 1 EBO) .

 

I think it is the same for S*** as for S**. S*** just adds the additional requirement for an automatic load-proportional braking system.
DB Cargo AG writing (only) "on certain lines", points to the conclusion that the "normal" regulations for brake percentages and PZB (that apply to all relevant lines) are not sufficent for the car to be allowed to travel 120 km/h. So this might be (at least at the time being) limited to LZB lines, if there are no other special regulations by DB Cargo AG covering this topic.

 

That's what I assume since the stars specifically denote that the brakes are the only parts not allowing the cars above 100 km/h. The presence of LZB supervision obviously makes the strength of the brakes irrelevant.

 

That doesn't make sense to me since the BrH is literally the quantity used to measure brake performance. If only the brakes are what limits the wagons from running at 120 km/h then if they are coupled to wagons with high braked weights so that the BrH of the train achieves the requirement for Vmax = 120 km/h, then you'd assume that the train would be allowed to run at 120 km/h. The only thing that (in my mind) would reduce the Vmax below 120 km/h if the BrH is enough for 120 km/h would be if the wagons cannot handle such a high speed, i.e. the structural Vmax is below 120 km/h.

It's worth pointing out that the BrH of a single Laaers wagon at the S-load limit is only 87, which is unlikely to allow 120 km/h running at most (or all) routes without LZB.

For example, using the Fahrplan I posted earlier, for DRA (a misuse because I'd presume that the Güterzug Fahrplan P is different from the Reisezug Fahrplan R/P) only allows 110 km/h (or 115 if linearly interpolated) on the route.

In Sweden there are wagons with S** which run at 110 km/h below a certain gross weight (but above empty), but the signalling systems are quite different here.

 

I think you are both prefectly right with those statements. The description in Appendix 11 of the GCU seems to allow for the cars to run at 120 km/h, not necessarily under LZB (under LZB anyway, though), but only if there are regulations issued by the railway untertaking (that runs the train) that ensure that the brake requirements for the train as a whole are met (because for the car on its own they are not). If the "normal" BrH/PZB rules are sufficient to ensure this, I couldn't find out so far. I can't see no reason why they shouldn't. The quote from the DB Cargo AG flyer seems to point into a different direction, though.
Does anyone know where the "requirements for SS conditions" (that are mentioned in the Appendix 11 GCU quote) are specified?

 

In a document on their online catalogue (only available in German, as far as I can see) DB Cargo AG specifies that *** means:
"Can run 120 km/h construction-wise ("Lauftechnische Eignung"), if the track in question is "equipped accordingly."
Okay, now we know it..

 

So the wagon can run at 120km/h but the track, and train performance are the limiting factors?

 

Yeah, but we still don't know what "equipped accordingly" means. Equipped with LZB? Equipped with PZB and GPA magnets?
What seems to be sure is that the loaded car can safely run 120 km/h without derailing, but I don't know what the track must be equipped with to compensate for the lack in braking capacity of the car.

 

I've cross checked with another source, and this is what I got: "On some intermodal wagons used for international exchange this drawing (***) is used to mark a wagon which is able to go at a max speed of 120km/h, even if its brake doesn't meet all of the SS' regime requirement, and they can go at 120km/h at the rail operator's discretion."

This is from an Italian manual, the *** are not very much used here apart from international exchange.

So what I'm guessing is that if the brakes are "good enough" to allow the train to stop withing the required restraints, the wagon can safely run at 120km/h, but the braking performance won't be up to SS standards.

P.S. Check this out

https://www.era.europa.eu/activities/technical-specifications-interoperability_en

I know it's probabily useless but I'll ping Matt in case that documentation can come in handy.

It has all the information in the world in almost every EU language, I'll see if I can find something there.

EDIT 2:
2 stars

3 stars


Overall I'm happy with this information.

Document 1
Document 2

 

Very good data.

My experience: only intermodal trains are allowed to travel above 100 kph.
Perhaps the 'autorack' hi-priority trains, under certain circumstances, as well?
In TSW, if the wagons are loaded and are not 'intermodal' - the maximum permitted speed for me is 100.

So, PZB is just about the braking curve and the brakes settings are the question, every time (weight and length dependent).

Any other cases are super special (super special freight corridors). BR o7

 

Sooooo complicated. The game should work this out for us lol.

 

1. It's great fun (if someone likes it - me?).
2. You are right!
In my opinion, it should be in the freight service description in the menu (PZB mode, brakes settings, max permitted speed).

PS And the fun could be then to switch some levers

 

I mean, IRL the load master does this calculation, the train drivers then needs to know the resulting data (BrH, mass, max speed) to drive the train.

 

I am a big fan of these calculations, but I would like to see this data in the description of every freight service.
More detailed descriptions, even insignificant (what kind of cargo we haul) would be a great addition. Heavy RolePlay

The information in this thread is phenomenal!

 

"Good enough" will ultimately depend on the Fahrplan/Bremstafel. As a rule of thumb, wagons that can run loaded at 120 km/h will have a load proportional brake force that is calibrated so that at some maximum gross weight (108t for the Sggmrss) the BrH is equal to 100. Still, not all routes will allow the train to travel at 120 km/h with a BrH of 100 and if the train is very long the BrH might get "deducted" so that it no longer is equal to 100.

Interestingly there are (rare) instances of freight wagons, with load proportional braking, with a maximum braked weight that yields a BrH way above 100. For example there are variants of the Sngss with a maximum BrH of 140. These wagons have a Vmax of 160 km/h.

 

I think all relevant items have already been mentioned. Maybe a couple of items are important to note, though.

This is an international standard. However, the way it is handled in different countries may vary. This is also why the regulations mostly publicly available are so vague and keep shifting the responsibility to the EVUs (RUs)

I only have a certain insight in how this is handled in Germany (and most of it has been mentioned here already). As we know, here, basically everything is coming down to brh, infrastructure and geography of a certain route. Hence, you may ask, why do we need extra stars next to the Lastengrenzregister? Why does it not just tell me „you are allowed 120kmh and this is your brh, now go and calculate how fast you can go on this route“. And you are absolutely right, it seems like an unnecessary double info and in Germany it is!

In Germany a Cargo train operator has its own rules for building a train for a certain route, the so called Güterzugbildungsvorschrift (GZV). They can look like this:
https://docplayer.org/90223686-Gueterzugbildungsvorschriften-gzv.html

The rule in Germany basically means that, as long as the operator has not ruled out the higher speed in a loaded configuration, he is allowed to use it, as long as brh is obviously high enough for this specific route, or the train does not drive signal based (ie LZB).

EDIT: Maybe one more comment on this. I don’t know any operator limiting these Waggons to 100kmh, when loaded. I have been told once (and bare in mind, you ask three different people and get 6 different answers) that it may have costing benefits when doing so, as you may enlarge the time frame you Waggons have to go into inspection.

 

Yes that's what I understood as well. "Consider this wagon capable of running at 120km/h, keep in mind its braking performance is not up to SS standard, if you can stop in time, go at 120km/h"

 

I have found a similar statement in another forum where some Railion worker discussed it. Apparently, SS cars need an inspection every 2 years, but S** or S*** only every 6 years. All secondhand knowledge coming from me, but at least we‘ve got 2 different sources hinting at the same thing.

 

While we‘re at it, there could at least be a description of what you‘re pulling so that one can look for a specific type of train in the selection screen.

 

I am done with my spreadsheet (to the best of the information I was able to obtain).
Excel versions can be downloaded from the TSW2 section of my discord server:

Spoiler: Join my discord to download

https://discord.gg/qSpfpvjW

There is a unicar version and a mixedcar version (for trains with up to six different types of cars).
The link will be valid for seven days.

 

Very nice piece of work! Thanks for that

 

Sorry to come back to this again, but I found some more information on S** cars.

Source


This screenshot stems from a discussion between actual railway workers. The blue emphasis was added by me.

It would seem that whether S** cars have a vmax of 100 or 120 km/h depends on the Zugbildungsplan. To me - as an amateur - this sounds like it is decided on a case by case basis depending on the exact make up of the train. Perhaps some of the more knowledgeable people on this thread know more about this Zugbildungsplan?

 

It should also apply to where the Habbiins wagon Riesa-Dresden prototype is from which is Main Spessart Bahn also the other freight wagon prototype routes Rhein-Ruhr Osten Ruhr-Sieg Nord Hamburg-Lübeck.

 

To my knowledge the Zugbildungsplan is the same to what I have already described in my last post (GZV). Also the regulations around it are as described.