Matt And Ps4 Players Eyes Only.

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by Birita, Oct 10, 2021.

?
  1. Yes

    18 vote(s)
    40.0%
  2. No

    27 vote(s)
    60.0%
  1. Birita

    Birita Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2021
    Messages:
    326
    Likes Received:
    392
    How to bring Rush Hour passengers back, ALL layers and still run great for 8th gen consoles:

    No AI.

    50/75 playable services for each core route locos. (More than enought for a game)

    Turn on ALL layers as it is.

    Ditch Hst (No AI).

    Boom! Job done!
    You Welcome.
    TrainSim-Matt
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2021
  2. ZeenozPlays

    ZeenozPlays Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2019
    Messages:
    2,016
    Likes Received:
    3,448
    It's not the services that breaks the route, it's the layers themselves. Matt explained it himself. There is little difference between 1 and 1000 services, but a bit one between even just 1 and 3/4 locos. More optimization needs to be made to the game, removing the services won't do anything.

    Plus, even if it did work this way, this would be a horrible exchange for the layers.
     
    • Like Like x 4
    • Helpful Helpful x 1
  3. Birita

    Birita Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2021
    Messages:
    326
    Likes Received:
    392
    HRR: 6 Locos (runs excelent)
    Koln: 6 Locos (runs excelent)
    Dresden: 7 Locos (runs pretty good for me...i only use the complete timetable... already completed ALL Ice 3 services and a lot off S1 and RE 50 and others)...didnt had any crash.
    Dresden: 6 Locos (runs the same)

    Dresden problems might be BR 101 and subs...
     
    • Like Like x 4
  4. JZJ90

    JZJ90 Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2020
    Messages:
    143
    Likes Received:
    202
    Remember it's not just the trains that count, everything like scenery and track also consumes memory, so while having all layers would probably work fine on one of the tiles in the countryside, a soon as you have them all on one of the tiles in the middle of London, all the memory is gone and the console falls over.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  5. sergio volodstok

    sergio volodstok Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2021
    Messages:
    160
    Likes Received:
    227
    Dovetail should experiment with this route as it's quite unplayable as it stands.. Release a second timetable with around a quarter of the total services, give it a week or two and see what player feedback looks like and go from there.. If feedback is good then add a single layer to the route and give it the same amount of time for feedback, if good leave it if bad remove it.

    Not a perfect solution but I don't think there will be one for this route.. :|
     
    • Like Like x 2
  6. Birita

    Birita Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2021
    Messages:
    326
    Likes Received:
    392
    Dont think so...scenery in TSW 2 is very very basic (not complaining...Just stating facts).
    Not enought hit on memory...
     
  7. JZJ90

    JZJ90 Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2020
    Messages:
    143
    Likes Received:
    202
    I'm just repeating what I've heard the devs themselves say about it, it's up to each end user whether they believe the people who make the game at the end of the day.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. Birita

    Birita Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2021
    Messages:
    326
    Likes Received:
    392
    I heard Matt saying that they tested with layers on 8th gen until last minute possible...sure that if they did this...game would work...
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2021
    • Like Like x 1
  9. xblackwolf90

    xblackwolf90 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2020
    Messages:
    380
    Likes Received:
    496
    Matt did mention on the stream recently that certain assets use a lot of memory; Victoria station using a fair amount.

    I would imagine that the large assets such as this, coupled with the large amount of catenary around Victoria could be the reason for the lack of layers on lower spec consoles.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. Birita

    Birita Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2021
    Messages:
    326
    Likes Received:
    392
    What i get on my PS4 is:
    Around Victoria with lots off trains...bad FPS...
    With fewer trains...good FPS...
    They need to tone down 1200 playable services...
    If they do what is suggested here we would get around 300 and something total services with ALL layers active...
    At the end off the day is a train simulator...not a city simulator...If they have to cap scenery aswell...do it like other routes that we have and works fine...i wouldnt mind missing some buildings that pops in when coming to Victoria anyway...
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2021
    • Like Like x 3
  11. photonmonkey

    photonmonkey Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2021
    Messages:
    247
    Likes Received:
    301
    It’s not scenery around Victoria, if you set up 4 different models of unit in Victoria on scenario planner (would add more but this was a simple test) and run them at the same time the frame rate is smooth in and around the station so I don’t buy this you can have 1000 of the same unit with no problems but the layers will kill it, it doesn’t stack up. Too many services are going to cause frame rate issues when you have the whole platforms packed and the console has to keep track of all the services it’s just bonkers!
     
    • Like Like x 4
  12. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2019
    Messages:
    6,475
    Likes Received:
    17,337
    How good would the route be with just four trains in it though? The thing is, you have to take everything into account when determining how these things work and what causes the issues and what the solution might be. Four different models of train in one location doesn’t come close to what the route would actually be doing with all the playable layers but fewer of each service overall, so can’t be used to evaluate the memory usage of that one location in the context of the whole route being active. All aspects of the route add to the performance load.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  13. photonmonkey

    photonmonkey Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2021
    Messages:
    247
    Likes Received:
    301
    this was a simple test to prove that 4 different units would run smoothly in Victoria as opposed to nearly every platform being used as in the timetable. Clearly I am not saying we should have just 4 trains but do you really think that 1200 services is not severely impacting the performance? Even out of the station the frame rate isn’t that great on the route, we just have to work around the limitations of the hardware which I don’t think was done when Joe created the services for the route. Obviously there are lots of other factors at play here. I mean the textures on the buildings are already very blurry and low res so it’s not going to help reducing the texture sizes and further. The game has to be playable and at the moment the frame rate in Victoria is just too low to be enjoyable. I am messing around in scenario planner just to get a feel for how the route ‘should’ run.
     
  14. Birita

    Birita Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2021
    Messages:
    326
    Likes Received:
    392
    100% Agreed!
     
    • Like Like x 1
  15. turbostar#4215

    turbostar#4215 Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2021
    Messages:
    55
    Likes Received:
    123
    Slightly off topic to what has been discussed is the PS5 version running any better in and around Victoria? I was considering buying PS5 and transferring across so I get better graphics and the layers that PS4 doesn't have but is it worth it if the game still struggles?
     
  16. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2019
    Messages:
    6,475
    Likes Received:
    17,337
    I think there was definitely some fingers being crossed as to whether they could get the route to run well on the older consoles and them thinking the layers would all work with the numbers of services included in a complex route should have made them think back to HMA which also has a big memory load. Creating a smaller timetable might be the only way they can make it work. The whole one train is as bad as a thousand trains thing that Matt says is an exaggeration to illustrate that introducing one new train layer has a huge impact. It’s only when those trains are all in the loaded tiles that it causes an issue but that is exactly what happens around Victoria and Clapham, which also have the most tracks and signals also using memory and some bigger bespoke scenery items. I was just saying that there are so many factors involved that we can’t really suggest ways to solve the problem because we have no real way of testing them in the context of everything being present across all loaded tiles but of course the total number of services affects it too. Not having the extra layers at all does make the biggest savings but maybe that isn’t enough.

    I made very busy scenarios in GWE and NTP on the PS4 and they ran very smoothly despite exceeding the maximum recommended service and unique vehicle numbers and it did make me wonder about what else is going on that cause issues. On the other hand I made a very long train in SPG and it just could not cope. That was just an increase of the same wagons but using all the physics which any other train in the timetable doesn’t use. London Commuter does have 12 carriage trains so that’s probably another thing that impacts things if you are driving one.

    The only experiment I’ve done on this route is standing on foot outside Victoria doing some trainspotting with the frame rate counter on. This is on PS5 with all the layers active and not having any full physics on any train due to being on foot and that illustrated the extent of the issue. For the main part it hovered around 45 fps (lower than the 60 fps driving parts of the route and most other routes) but got as low as 17 fps at times. It never got that low for long but that would be enough to crash a PS4 and certainly more so if you were driving a train at that time also with the full physics active. From what I could gather these drops were coinciding with a lot of trains entering the active tiles or loading passengers at Victoria. The worst offender seemed to be the 465 as those were the ones that appeared in view shortly after the drops in frame rate but all trains affect it. Lots of trains actually moving in and out of the station at once didn’t seem to affect the frame rate as much as trains entering the game tiles away from view but it did drop then as well. I’ve not seen frame rates that low on any route on the PS5 and only really on SPG on PS4. There is certainly a huge load on the game in that area and many savings would be required to get it to run smoothly.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  17. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2019
    Messages:
    3,176
    Likes Received:
    9,155
    While I have done the same test in scenario planner, what you need to consider is that if you removed all the scenery and just left 1200 trains, you’d probably see a performance improvement too, so there is a balance to be had, as Stujoy said, it’s about striking the balance.

    We can’t see how well the route runs with 400, 600 or 800 services, we can only really see it with about 20.

    Ultimately it’s a combination of everything, but the conclusion is that the textures across everything are the biggest factor, and we know that because playing the PS4 version on the PS5 results in a solid FPS throughout, without any crashing.


    Unfortunately the PS5 build doesn’t improve on stability, you essentially end up with the same issue because now you’re loading more assets in at a larger distance, with more detailed textures, and then there’s also the fact that instead of 1200 services, there’s now 4000, so the load increases massively, and you do see this effect the build.

    The PS4 version on PS5 is very stable, and maintains 60FPS most of the route, but you then have to suffer poor textures and draw distance.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Helpful Helpful x 1
  18. Chas

    Chas Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2020
    Messages:
    143
    Likes Received:
    397
    I was supportive towards DTG during the UE update problems a few months ago and happily they have been fixed. Will the problems with BML be fixed too? (I hope so!)

    I was really looking forward to BML and bought it the moment it became available. I have a PS4 slim and must agee with others that the performance issues at places like Victoria make the game unplayable. I just use the scenario builder to create routes (between Clapham and Brighton) which I drive with a few AI services programmed in. The route is really nice but the lagging on timetable mode has completely stopped me using it.

    Whilst having 1200 services running seems a good idea, what is the point if you need a graphene based quantum processor and a liquid nitrogen cooled graphics card to enjoy it? Whatever is claimed, it is logical that having a huge number of services running is going need processing just to keep track of where everything is and even more processing to display it. That processing power is sorely needed to smoothly run the basic train driving simulation.

    I don't know how TSW2 is coded or how easy it woud be to implement updates but I feel that 3 changes need to be made to keep the player base onboard with BML and TSW2 as a whole.

    1) BML timetable-lite. A smaller number of services in a seperate timetable possibly implemented like the Diesel Legends DLC.

    2) A menu slider control to set the scenery complexity and/or density. This should improve performance in heavily built up areas.

    3) An option to turn off rush hour (or all) passengers for those who don't need the visual thrills of larger crowds of clumsy zombies shuffling around aimlessly after materialising out of thin air next to a fence. I know RH isn't yet in BML but adding it to the Bakerloo line has created performance issues and I imagine it would turn BML into a slideshow.

    Great credit is due to Joe for the logistics masterpiece evident in the huge number of BML services available but for me and MANY others we will have to wait till we go "next-gen" before we can enjoy them and till then we still want to use this beautiful route even if some of the cutting edge features need to be turned off.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2021
    • Like Like x 2
  19. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2019
    Messages:
    2,123
    Likes Received:
    3,198
    I'm sure that DTG will be very grateful of your UE development expertise on this matter because they've got a whole team of developers working on this and you appear to have single-handedly solved it in a few minutes. Matt will no doubt be in touch soon to offer you a contract, or at least some freelance dev work...

    It's quite slow within the trains at Victoria - looking around the cockpit in particular is pretty stuttery, but as soon as you get moving, it's fine and perfectly playable. The graphics overall are a step up, even from a PS4 Pro on which I was already running the game in 4K. If you switch from a 1080p regular PS4 to a PS5 in 4K, you'll be blown away by the difference.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2021
    • Like Like x 5
  20. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2019
    Messages:
    3,176
    Likes Received:
    9,155
    Oh really? Tell me what are the asset sizes then for say, Gatwick Airport & East Croydon?
     
  21. Birita

    Birita Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2021
    Messages:
    326
    Likes Received:
    392
    For me really... It comes down to... the need that DTG has to take a more classic approach regarding Ps4 routes...stick with what works...DTG should know by now...leave the cutting edge features for 9th gen only...
    A timetable with around 300/400 services should work with all layers...as It does on other routes...and i would be more than happy with.
     
  22. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2019
    Messages:
    2,123
    Likes Received:
    3,198
    Like all the extra layers, for example?

    Where's the Facepalm emoji when you need it?
     
    • Like Like x 3
  23. Birita

    Birita Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2021
    Messages:
    326
    Likes Received:
    392
    No this we already have for base Ps4 and Xbox One...
     
  24. Birita

    Birita Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2021
    Messages:
    326
    Likes Received:
    392
    Thanks...It means a lot to me...hahshahaha
     
    • Like Like x 1
  25. antwerpcentral

    antwerpcentral Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2021
    Messages:
    2,044
    Likes Received:
    2,589
    After playing SEHS and ECW I don't really get what exactly is the problem with all these layers. I have three different trains on SEHS and it runs fine. I'm not gonna say Dresden runs perfect but I played it with the old timetable and my PS4 Pro did not explode of all the layers. So what is so special about BML that it can't play nice with two loco's that to me looks like 1 loco with a different paint job?

    I don't really get why you need 2 different models of the electrostar anyway. I'm only driving one of them so it's only important that the one I'm driving is the correct one. Why can't all the other electrostars be the same train as mine but with other paint job? I won't notice when I'm driving one.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  26. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2019
    Messages:
    3,176
    Likes Received:
    9,155
    The other 2 lines you listed both aren’t running an insanely high number of services, nor do they have the same large scenery assets that the BML has, everyone is so focused on the trains that they forget how big this route really is, all the signals, multiple platform stations, large scenery clusters, number of tracks etc it all has a price, combine that with at least 1200 services and the price is astronomical, it’s really a simple (but yet not simple) case of there is just so much within the route, and I think even DTG know that they have maybe overstepped with it.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Helpful Helpful x 1
  27. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2019
    Messages:
    2,123
    Likes Received:
    3,198
    Meanwhile, the other half of the community is getting all uppity because DTG haven't modelled the little step lights on the 387! :D
     
    • Like Like x 4
  28. antwerpcentral

    antwerpcentral Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2021
    Messages:
    2,044
    Likes Received:
    2,589
    Well if you want the perfect modelled version you need the next gen console. :D
     
  29. eire007

    eire007 Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2020
    Messages:
    155
    Likes Received:
    183
    Upgrade, boom. Job done even quicker
     
  30. Birita

    Birita Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2021
    Messages:
    326
    Likes Received:
    392
    Ps5 cant even run the game as It should right now...this cap issue is going to take a long time to be sorted...wouldnt want It crashing...wouldnt want playing below 30 FPS aswell...

    Waiting for Ps5 Pro...meanwhile i am more than happy with Ps4 Pro...where i play other games and where my friends are...
    There isnt a single game that i want that is Ps5 exclusive yet...

    Xbox series sound issues would make me stop playing this game for good...and textures problems too...is going to get fix but yet they arent...dont know how they keep playing tbh...

    Gutted for next gen users...right now most off them are very sour...hence why some have sooo much issues with 8th gen consoles players enjoying this game and wanting a better experience that Surely DTG failed to delivery regarding BML...

    Edit: i can bet that most off votes that are "no" in this thread comes from next gen users... hahahaha ... they cant just do them at the moment....
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2021
    • Like Like x 1
    • Helpful Helpful x 1
  31. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2019
    Messages:
    2,123
    Likes Received:
    3,198
    It's nice to know you care.

    I have a PS5 sat on my desk right next to a PS4 Pro and I can tell you that the Pro has only been switched on once since the PS5 arrived, and that was or a quick blast on The Crew 2 because I haven't bothered moving any of my old games over. I think the PS5 is an awesome piece of kit and TSW2 looks and plays beautifully. Yeah, there are bugs that need fixing, but I certainly wouldn't go back to playing it on the 4 or wish for the routes to be any less adventurous in scope than they are now.

    But you can imagine I'm sour and be gutted for me all you like; what ever helps you through the day. :)
     
    • Like Like x 2
  32. Birita

    Birita Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2021
    Messages:
    326
    Likes Received:
    392
    Well If you are so happy about your Ps5...i dont know why you are even wasting energy in a thread that was intended only for Ps4 players...stating things like...layers should be only for 9th gen...and i bet you voted "no"...sooo...yes
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2021
    • Like Like x 2
  33. borg#1850

    borg#1850 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2021
    Messages:
    453
    Likes Received:
    499
    One has to ask what they are testing on?

    Do they test on a basic PS4 and the variants. XBox etc.

    Do they test on a basic spec PC "OR" do they test on something with huge amounts of memory, the fastest CPU and the worlds best video card on the market.

    When you see TSW at a show in person, have you ever creeped around the back to see what they are running on? I have and it is a huge box of tricks.

    So like anything when peoples say we "Tested" it, we (The Community) think tested it on something like my console or PC, when it might be way short of the reality.

    Just saying, I work in the industry, where the salesman shows you something and the company buys it. Then it comes "oh that's an extra add on you have to pay for. What you were shown is the all singing and dancing version, not what you bought!
     
    • Like Like x 1
  34. Chas

    Chas Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2020
    Messages:
    143
    Likes Received:
    397
    What clinched the deal for me was the YouTube the night before release where a senior DTG staff member (Matt?) claimed that alot more work and testing was done on old gen consoles than for the new gen machines. I cannot understand how these problems were missed as all you needed to do was load a timetable service from Victoria and try and run it.. The dreadful state of this release is obvious from the moment you find yourself in the cab.

    Look, I'm not stomping around in a rage demanding heads on sticks and a refund but I do feel badly let down by DTG staff claiming that the product was ready to ship when in reality it is not fit for purpose on an older console. If they had been honest and said that this was really best on a gaming PC or next gen console I would have been disappointed and probably spent that money on SEHS or the New Cornwall route. As it stands I am extremely reticent to buy anything else until I read the community feed back after it is released.

    Reputation and trust are the two greatest assets any company can have and sadly DTG is rapidly running low on both.
     
    • Like Like x 9
    • Helpful Helpful x 1
  35. borg#1850

    borg#1850 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2021
    Messages:
    453
    Likes Received:
    499
    Agree
     
    • Like Like x 1
  36. TheCadManFan

    TheCadManFan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2018
    Messages:
    303
    Likes Received:
    293
    Is this a private club for those of us still on PS4? Pull up a chair, pour yourself some whiskey and help yourself to a cigar.

    Underpowered compared to that uppity lot with their PS5's we might be, we don't have to uninstall dlc in order to add new dlc.

    [​IMG]
     
    • Like Like x 3
  37. barryr21

    barryr21 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2021
    Messages:
    116
    Likes Received:
    135
    I managed to get a couple of GXs in this evening with no major issues. One out of Victoria was late at night and while slow seemed playable. One at midday headed to Victoria and I may have come across the red light queue however as I ploughed straight through it I couldn't say 100%

    Come across a weird graphics glitch at night where I managed to get the external camera under the train which inverted the sky and earth and made it look like I was driving through Space. Was pretty cool to be honest. I did take a pic but can't seem to get my uploads??

    Hope they manage to get a compromise on the lagging. It is a really good route at its core.
     
  38. cmadonna1998

    cmadonna1998 Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2021
    Messages:
    122
    Likes Received:
    162
    I could not agree more with everything you said. If anyone had played on a PS4 at London-Victoria they would have known how unacceptably poor the performance on PS4 was. To build on what you said, DTG needs to make a decision whether to abandon gen 8 consoles in the name of progress. Even as a PS4 user, I would support DTG if they decided that new routes will not be optimized for the gen 8 consoles anymore and stopped releasing the content for them. I would certainly be disappointed, but it will have to happen, and it seems like it will be sooner rather than later.
    But as it stands, DTG assures us that they will continue to support gen 8 consoles, while releasing such an ambitious route that they can't even put all the content on gen 8 consoles. Moving forward, DTG needs to be honest and straightforward with performance on gen 8 consoles and advise people to look at other methods of playing. But I guess that honesty would cost them sales.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  39. photonmonkey

    photonmonkey Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2021
    Messages:
    247
    Likes Received:
    301
    It’s not the fact that they need to drop support for a console that a game was released on, they just need to be realistic with the content, they know they still have a large player base on PS4 XBO so I think stopping support would be foolish at this point.
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Helpful Helpful x 1
  40. borg#1850

    borg#1850 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2021
    Messages:
    453
    Likes Received:
    499
    I think at the rate they are going, they are already going to cost themselves sales, with all the bugs issues!
     
    • Like Like x 2
  41. ukpetey

    ukpetey Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2016
    Messages:
    206
    Likes Received:
    447
    At the top of this thread is a poll, with a choice of voting ‘yes’ or ‘no’. I must admit that I wonder what the question is?
     
  42. ady.hewitt

    ady.hewitt Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2021
    Messages:
    53
    Likes Received:
    42
    indeed , the route selection on my PS4 stutters and is jerky , and you cannot see what weather you are selecting , how did this not get logged and fixed ?
     

Share This Page