Hire An Audio Engineer

Something that is starting to annoy me on many routes is the little amount that is spend on audio quality. The first time I noticed this was on the Boston Sprinter but I thought this would be fixed but after buying some routes I noticed this is something that is never fixed. The Javelin has a very annoying loop cut off on the engine sound. Because the only thing you hear in the game is te loop of the train and the ambience this is very noticeable. Today I noticed the wipers of the electrostar on East Coastway don't sync with the loop of wipers Audio in intermittent mode. You see the wipers stop before the rubber sound come to a stop. Because the one thing you will see and hear the whole time during a rainy service it breaks the immersion entirely.

 

Absolutely agree

 

Things are looking up sound wise recently Ever since the 465 release dovetail has used the well known Armstrong powerhouse for a lot of sounds now like the new 377/387 and 314 and the 465 and hopefully keep using them for future trains as there is nothing to fault with the Armstrong sounds

 

You mean samples? I'm not complaining about the sounds used. I can't tell you which engine sound belongs with which loco. It's how the samples have been edited or manipulated that bother's me. For example the Javelin engine sound loop is a few milliseconds too long. The loop starts with an artefact that should have been cut off but never was and that's why you here every few seconds the sound of the artefact. It's also present in one of the Boston loco's. It all sounds like a rushed job. Because this is a simulator that focuses on all the details it's immediately noticeable. When you open the Class 465 door you will not hear the ambience from outside.

How professionally made the trains look they sound the total opposite. Like made by an amateur. If they paid someone solely for audio engineering they should ask their money back.

 

see someone can easily record a cracking good recording it all comes down to how it's mixed and the makers implement this into the game itself

 

Than the makers (I guess you mean developers) should get a crash course on how to work with audio samples

 

Read what i wrote in the XBox section about this. Maybe you get an idea why it is as it is. Calling the people working on it "incompetent" (what you basically do here) is not really helpful at all.

 

https://www.dovetailgames.com/vacancies

They are hiring...

 

Thank you for the suggestion but I had a look at the application and they are based in the UK. Not wanting to bring politics into this but seems a bit impossible to apply living outside the UK

 

Well it's incompetency. I'm talking about items being sold to consumers. Audio is as important as graphics in simulators. If the window screen would turn black for a millisecond every few seconds it would be called out as incompetency and this is the exact same thing.

I'm giving them slack on new content. Boston Sprinter was the first route I tried and noticed an artefact on the loop of the engine sound and thought it would get fixed. As I'm buying older content in anticipation of having the Rush Hour content fixed I notice on older routes such problems aren't fixed at all.

 

Call it what you want. But comparing a black windscreen with the actual existing audio in TSW is not fair. The audio is as good as it can be. There might be better solutions in general. But this is also not helpful at all. Using the tools and respecting the current limitations that are present and get the best out of it is the actual solution. There is always a "it could be better". Yes, it could be better. But it can't at the moment as i can tell. I know, customers do not have any clue what it means to make audio for a train in a niche simulator game. That is really hard to do. The possibilities are quite limited. I can say that. I do that stuff for over 10 years know. I would love to spread out the 100k€ worth equipment in my office to do better sound. Not even speaking of the expensives to be able to record at the acual trains (what is often not even possible with any money). But no one would pay for it at least. So we/i have to stick with what is really possible. Making good loops is a need, yes. But sometimes you really can't cut the part that sounds annoying, simply because it sounds more wors after it and you don't have any more "flesh" to cut from. My hardest edit yet was a BR185.2 inverter sound for TS1, that needed 11 loops out of a badly captured 2 second long recording that was available. The results, you can imagine, were not that good, but also not that bad that the world would stop to rotate. The alternative was to discard making the loco. What would you decide to do? Would be interesting to me to hear.

 

Sorry to disagree but the audio is totally amateurish. The samples are very good but how it's implemented is pure incompetence. Go sit in the Javelin and tell me the audio is as good as it can be. If you can tell that with a straight face you must be deaf

The only thing they need to do is remove the artefact from that recording. It's not rocket science

 

antwerpcentral you don't even want to understand what the problem with the whole audio-universe is, do you?

 

Try me, I'm a producer

 

A producer of what?

 

Music.

Here is a suggestion for the crew. Get RX8 and fix it

It could be that because audio is my profession this is so noticeable and annoying to me and sounds to others like the best you can have. Not sure but to me it's as annoying as the lag in BML

 

Music, lol. Sorry. But.... Did you ever made any piece of technical audio that depends on simulation variables and that is limited by certain things like the underlying audio engine, the hardware you produce for and what not else? Making music is a kid game compared to this. RX also can't do all the magic. I use it a lot. Music is a totally different manner that making physical based audio for a simulator.

No, i don't have the Javelin. So i can't speak of the audio that is done for it. Maybe it could be fixed, maybe not. Calling it incompetence because of some audio issues is not ok. You need to get the whole game development in mind, not only audio. Again, it is not a AAA title with 1000 person working on it, nor having the dollars to hire a 50 person audio team.

 

Yup, it's like video. There is not much difference with the mechanics of video gaming as it is based on the same principles hence the name video in video games

So you are trying to give lessons in audio whilst you don't even know what the problem is I'm talking about? The nerves! I love DTG very much but defending every move they make is taking the piss out of your colleague community members. I really thought you had the Javelin and knew what sound I'm talking about. Turns out your don't even own the Javelin.

 

I don't need to own it to get the idea of what you mean. It is not only the Javelin that suffers from such things. It is basically all TS1/TSW audio. But for you, i will have a look into it later. Easy to download it, put the files into Wavelab and look what is really happen there. (i will not do a fix or whatever, that's not up to me ... i just want to understand your disappointments to make it better with my own work for TSW)

 

Well if you know what I'm talking about and you know your way around audio and video you should know it is an easy fix

 

Look audio is obviously an important aspect of simulation, and an area where DTG struggles sometimes. This isn't always purely due to DTG's decisions, I believe that the Xbox looping issues are due to an unexpected incompatibility between different audio systems.

DTG has however shown that they know this area is a good candidate for improvement, and they are taking action. There is a vacancy for a reason, they want more people on audio. They have also cooperated with AP and TSG, both cooperations bringing great improvement in my opinion. There is an upwards trend, and as long as DTG keeps working on it that is fine with me.

I don't think the tone this thread is getting will help with improving audio quality, so unless you are planning on applying for that vacancy it is perhaps not our place as a community to say things are simple and easy fixes. Believe me, DTG wouldn't ignore an easy fix.

We'll just have see what the future of audio in this game holds. Onceagain, DTG is very much aware of the need for improvement on that front, this discussion isn't going to make them suddenly magically create perfect audio.


P.S. I have a friend that produces music, and I'm pretty sure it's very different from the technical audio work a game needs. In a game audio needs to react to the player and his actions dynamically, that makes it completely different from a pre-composed piece of music.

 

As I already said I looked at the application and they are based in the UK so no I will not apply. Well the tone of the topic is that of a paying customer. Paying customers will not not be shushed by telling them they don't know what they are talking about.
I hear this come back in a lot of topics "you don't understand how complex this is". In most topics that is correct but being told this in a topic about audio makes me doubt if the stuff in the other topics that I don't understand really are that complex as mentioned.

 

Yes, you are right. The customer should not care about how things are done. But the customer also should not tell the company how it should work and what's to do and when. Vote with your walle then. It's quite easy. Yelling around in the forums will not fix any issue, for sure. If you don't want to hear what the developers say, don't ask for it (people basically do with their harsh postings here i would say). As one of the guys who is doing audio, i immediately go into a defence mode Criticism is fine, but watch your wording. Developers of train sims are only humans like you (hopefully you are, if you are a robot that makes music, please go back to your own planet ... just kidding .... btw. could we see/hear some of your astonishing work somewhere? ).

 

Gotta agree with you there

 

I choose my words very carefully. From what I've seen on streams the higher ups are to blame so I'm confident when someone at DTG reads this they say to the higher-up "see higher up, I've told you. Customers are complaining and this is all your fault because you don't give us enough resources".

 

Audio could use an improvement for sure. The 395 Javelin passenger interior sounds when the train is moving is way too quiet. Not to mention that it rarely makes track noise in parts of the route that isn't grinded rail. The Motor audio of the Class 395 Javelin isn't even fully realistic when it's in motion. For some odd reason when going through a junction on that train only the cars that have the cab will make the clickety clack noise. That's not how it is in real life. The Class 314 although uses sounds from AP is way too quiet. The Class 465 passenger interior when the doors are open has no outside ambience and thus is too quiet. There were some complaints about the sounds from the Class 377 and 387 particularly with the AWS warning being too low. Whilst yes it's good that they are using sounds from ap in some trains, the way they mix the sounds is the issue hence why the audio quality in my opinion isn't great on some trains and why this thread was created. Even when dtg get sounds that sound like the real thing in real life, it still ends up sounding off in the final product. Saying incompetence could make people feel a certain way but I get what the op is saying.

 

I'm sure someone at dtg probably does that already. But at the end of the day dtg are a business and what matters to them is the bottom line which can mean things may or may not change

 

Yes, there are quite some reasons for that, technically sides. But customers don't want to know it. They just want a fix. So they have to wait for the fix, whenever it comes or if it ever comes

 

But we know it. We can hear it!

 

Computer games create an illusion of reality.
Most failures are due to the limitations of the software and hardware platforms.
Audio is just one of many things that annoy people.
Join the queue.

 

The problem is that audio should be well understood in 2021 just as video. Sure there is limitations on file sizes and such. But the problems I hear have nothing to do with limitations. It's just sloppiness. The only limitation that I can think of is time. They just have not enough time to polish the audio?

 

Time is one of the biggest factors for sure. But also source gathering. Often you can't simply get what you want. So you have to use what you already own. Make it sound so it fits the needs. And that consumes even more not available time as you may know. I'm on your side about that this is really bad for the products. But i can't change how the world works, nor DTG can do this. This are the given conditions. The customers are constantly calling for discounts, often buy only on sale at all, but additionally calling for always better quality too. That is not working in such a niche game. The limits are customer amounts, TIME, material/information sources, MONEY to spent into the development. If i could spend 3 years into making one DLC, that would bring out nice quality. But the reality says: you have 3 Months. And often not even that. So, where the quality should come from? People can't work faster and maintain a higher quality level at the same time. Something has to pay for the low prices on the market for the DLCs.

 

I can't blame people for waiting for sales as this topic came to be that I realised I should have waited for sales to buy older DLC for this game. Most people always want the newest and shiniest so if people are holding out for sales it's probably because not worth paying full price?

 

Yeah, but you have to admit, that this will not solve the situation at all. When all waiting for sales, the quality will be lower over time, not higher. Higher quality needs more stable basement in terms of selling numbers. Again, from a developers sight. If i see my customers are waiting for sales, no matter what i do, i stop doing it when the income suffers from it too much. The alternative is to lower production costs by lowering the quality at lest. No idea if that is what people really want. But that happens when no one buy the stuff anymore. I'm a customer too, for lots of games. I know, i i wait for sales only, or don't have the will to pay the amount that is needed for quality, i don't get quality. That's not only for games but for most other stuff you can buy. If you always save as most money as you can you will not have good quality with your owned products. Also customers need to realise, that quality does not come from nothing.

Sorry, when i am sounding weird with my ideas. But that is what i get in mind every day doing that stuff, and also when i buy products where i expect a decent amount of quality. I shop for quality OR for price, not both as this turns often out to not work well.

 

Sure, it's a spiral. But from what I notice in the Playstation forum there are a lot of customers like me. Not very interested in technical details. Not very into the simulator aspect. I would describe the typical Playstation user as a wannabe sim person. No offense to the playstation users that are invested in simulators. But Playstation users are the user base that buys blindly if it's any good. A sale will get us to new products we might have missed or didn't trust but if the product is good, the wallets open.

 

That is a load of twaddle. I’d try and pick it apart but it’s not worth my time. Buying blindly if it’s good but not really what it’s supposed to be, how does that even work? Is that what Playstation users are like? They sound like idiots, is that the club I’ve joined? It’s been quite a journey from the original topic of hiring professional people who know what they are doing to having any old rubbish released for PS users because they don’t care about realism. It would be quite easy to put a constantly playing generic train sound effect with no audio artefacts in it to make those players happy, like what a bedroom music producer might do. And they would still only buy it in a sale. It’s a wonder anybody bothers.

 

Oh here we go. The sim fanatic is there and the name calling starts. So predictable. How would you call people that obsess over every detail in a video game? Nope I'm not gonna start with name calling. I just buy stuff that is fun. I can drive a train the easy way? Here is my money. That's who I am. Am I therefore an idiot?

I respect everyone on here. The ones that imagine themselves to be real train drivers, those that want every detail to be correct as in real life "because it's realism". We all want the same thing: a better game and we all have one thing in common, we all think we know what is best for the game

 

I never called you an idiot. It’s just that not all Playstation users, or users on any platform, are ‘wannabes’ as you called them or will accept less. I was taking your example of what a typical PS user is further to show how absurd the notion of releasing for the lowest common denominator is. It was sarcasm. There are players who care greatly about realism and they do need catering for as much as those who don’t care. TSW2 is developed for the highest realism that can be achieved within the constraints of the dev process and cost. You are blinkered to what it is that you want and show no capacity to think that others may want more.

I’d like there to be no audio artefacts and I am an audio engineer but I know that I don’t have the skills or knowledge for TSW development because as far as I know, there are no plans for TSW2 The Musical in a provincial theatre, my area of expertise. You started the thread claiming that you know more than those who do game audio because you are a music producer. An easy fix you said. Then it turns out you want it all dumbed down to your level of basic video sound and forget about what others want out of a sim. I’m not some authenticity fanatic either. I want the final sound to make it feel like you are in a train, preferably the exact train you are in and sometimes the exact real sounds don’t do that so some artistic license is required, and sometimes the correct sounds do but aren’t achievable, but I’d never try and make out that I know more than those who do it on the technical side.

 

You clearly need a mirror. Talking about players who want realism but if someone who can't tell the engine sound from each other get's already an immersion breaking experience than they should just shut up because only those that spot that the screw used in the interior of loco x is not the screw use in real life should be listened to?
If you are an audio engineer you should be able to recognise the sloppiness on the audio part of the game.

It's called a sim. if the audio does not work you don't have a good simulation even if the visuals are striking. It's that simple

 

Let‘s not make this a shouting match.

antwerpcentral, you got your answers from Maik Goltz, who actually works on the game. You can believe him or not - your choice - but continuously claiming to know what is and isn‘t an easy fix won‘t solve anything.

Also, you can only speak for yourself, not for all Playstation users as you claim:

 

I don't speak for all the playstation users. I just say what I notice. I see on the playstation forum much more users like me.

Again on the sounds in the game. They are not acceptable at sometimes. I'm not talking about engines having different sounds. Again I'm talking about pure sloppiness. And the answers that Mark gave only justify my critique. The amount of work put in audio just dwarves the amount of work put in the visual stuff.

Again this is a simulator. Simulators should give you the sense of a real experience. There are 2 of our sensors that are being targeted to give us this illusion. Our eyes and our ears. When one is off the illusion is gone.

It's not my fault you don't comprehend what I'm saying. I'm not talking about audio only a few will detect as wrong, I'm talking about audio that everyone can detect is wrong. As I stated before the first time I noticed this on Boston I was under impression this was something the crew would have noticed but did not have time to fix in time. But after buying older routes it's now my impression the crew had noticed and never cared about to look at again.

I'm sorry that this topic comes at the wrong moment for the developer of the DB 187. But this topic is not about that loco. This topic is not about having accurately correct engines sounds. The topic is about audio being neglected for such a long time on multiple routes.

 

This yap yap is starting to get annoying