London Waterloo To Windsor Plus Hounslow Loop Line

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by GTAGamer245, Oct 6, 2021.

  1. GTAGamer245

    GTAGamer245 Well-Known Member

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    I'd thought I suggest Waterloo to Windsor via Richmond or Hounslow.
    The following stations are London Waterloo, Vauxhall, Queenstown Road, Clapham Junction,
    Wandsworth Town, Putney, Barnes, Mortlake, North Sheen, Richmond, St Margaret's, Twickenham, Whitton, Feltham, Ashford, Staines, Wraysbury, Sunnymeads, Datchet and Windsor & Eton Riverside. An alternative between Barnes and Feltham stopping at Barnes Bridge, Chiswick, Kew Bridge, Brentford, Syon Lane and Hounslow can also be possible.

    If you have any ideas related to my suggestion such as rolling stock, services, and time periods. Let me know.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2021
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  2. elarthur

    elarthur Well-Known Member

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    Would really like to see a South Western route. Many classes to choose from...
    Class 455/7, /8 & /9
    Class 456
    Class 444
    Class 450
    Class 458

    Additionally there are older units like 4SUB (405), 4EPB (415), 4PEP (445) and 2PEP (446). This pretty much covers all EMU types in use since the 1950s and possibly before.
     
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  3. seandouglas

    seandouglas Active Member

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    I'd love to see this with the line all the way to Reading and perhaps a bit of the Kingston Loop (maybe just Strawberry Hill as a terminus). I'd also love to see this with the SWR/SWT 707s!
     
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  4. GTAGamer245

    GTAGamer245 Well-Known Member

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    The reason why I chose as far as Windsor was because I didn't want to cause any constraints with any mileage limit as this idea is for Train Sim World 2 but the Kingston loop would be a good idea to add. Now that it is mentioned. We could call the entire route "South Western Commuter"

    And I like the ideas for rolling stock because if set in 2016 to present day, we could use 455, for Kingston Services.
    450 and 458 for partial AI Reading Services along with Windsor Services and Part AI Weybridge Services. I'm not sure about the 707s though because I'm concerned about licensing.

    For the slam door EMUS, we could give it the same treatment as Great Western Express as extra DLC if possible.

    Also if this dlc ever happened, we could have SWR/SWT AI Traffic for the recently released London Commuter route.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2021
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  5. seandouglas

    seandouglas Active Member

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    In total (Waterloo to Reading, Windsor and Hounslow loop) is about 50 miles, which is about as long as London to Brighton. I added Strawberry Hill as well just to have somewhere for Kingston Loop trains to start/terminate, the entire loop would be a bit too much.

    That said, South Western Commuter would also be a great route as we're still lacking network-like routes rather than point to point ones. I'd split the network in half North and South if Strawberry Hill. So, Waterloo to Reading, Windsor, Strawberry Hill and Hounslow Loop would be one route, and Waterloo to Guilford (with the routes via Woking, Epsom and Cobham), Shepperton branch and the Kingston Loop up to Strawberry Hill. Would be huge but the possibilities would be endless!

    (Nothing wrong with your suggestion, the Waterloo to Windsor line is my local line and I'd love to see it in game!!) :)
     
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  6. GTAGamer245

    GTAGamer245 Well-Known Member

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    And what rolling stock should we use for each service? Due to SWR having so many types.
     
  7. seandouglas

    seandouglas Active Member

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    Depends when it's set.
    SWT - 455s, 458/0s, 450s usually went down that route.
    Late SWT - 455s, 458/5s, 450s and 707s
    SWR - 458/5s, 707s or 701s, 455s and the odd 450.

    Personally, I'd like to see late SWT with 458/5s and 707s as default, with the others either as a dlc or layered from future SWT routes
     
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  8. GTAGamer245

    GTAGamer245 Well-Known Member

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    Let's use 458/5 as a built in vehicle while the class 707 could be dlc because now that the 707s have been going to Southeastern and I don't know how it affects licensing for use in a SWT route.
    And the route can be set in late 2016/early 2017.
     
  9. bradders059

    bradders059 New Member

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    Would love to see a late swt route they don’t need a license for swt as it’s no longer a running company and on top of that swr is still using the old livery with “south western railway” stuck on the side it would be nice to see a full running swt network from Waterloo to Windsor or reading
     
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  10. 43050

    43050 Well-Known Member

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    I believe even though the company no longer exists there is still an ownership issue
     
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  11. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    707s would have the same licensing issues as the 700s (They're not owned by one of the standard train owner companies but by a shell company that seems to be weird about licensing)
    Better to wait until the Aventras are on stream and use them (subject to licensing)
     
  12. GTAGamer245

    GTAGamer245 Well-Known Member

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    You all do a have point with this.
     
  13. bradders059

    bradders059 New Member

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    Oh really interesting... I will have to look for answers but I thought they would be able to do a swt with no problems as they already have it in ts classic so I didn’t think licensing would be a issue
     
  14. bradders059

    bradders059 New Member

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    Another thing to consider is if they make it a SWR route they most probably won’t be able to use the class 455 as it’s still in ex SWT livery, if a SWR route was made I think they would make DTG use there new SWR OFFICAL livery this means the 707 and 455 couldn’t be used at all and the 458’s until they get refrebed
     
  15. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    This with 4SUB definitely.
     
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  16. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Just because they had a license in TS1 doesn't mean they have a license for TSW, or for any train they like within that brand. Depends on the wording of the previous contract
     
  17. seandouglas

    seandouglas Active Member

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    To be honest, I'm not as big a fan of the Aventras as I am the 707s... hopefully the licensing issue could be resolved to at least get the 707 as a dlc (it could run on SHS or any other southeastern route as well if both liveries were included). Perhaps initially the 458/5s running to Windsor and the 450s running to Reading would be a more viable option, with a potential 455 and/or 707 dlcs or layered from other potential SWT routes
     
  18. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    The 700 series has not been made (officially) in any train sim game I am aware of. That probably means the licensing is going to be an issue that won't be resolved soon
     
  19. seandouglas

    seandouglas Active Member

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    They're still relatively new trains, hopefully they'll be able to find a way to license them.

    The route would still work without 707s, using 458/5, 450s and 455s instead. Another potential route/network would be Waterloo to Guildford, with the Hampton Court branch, Kingston Loop from New Malden to Twickenham and the Shepperton branch. Trains from this route could easily be layered onto Waterloo-Reading/Windsor/Hounslow loop as they share a lot of rolling stock.

    Waterloo-Rdg, Wnr with the Hounslow loop has a lot of potential and I think it'll be a great commuter route to add to tsw's portfolio :)
     
  20. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    It would... leave the 700s out as they were basically a fail anyway
     
  21. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    You mean Class 701
     
  22. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    701s are what they're getting, 707s are what they had (and have transferred to SouthEastern)
     
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  23. bradders059

    bradders059 New Member

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    I know they don’t have the license for all trains on that network but I would of thought they would have the class 444,450,455,158 as they all appeared in ts classic and as dovetail as a Company have the swt licence or can use swt branding and the licences for these trains I’m almost certain they can be used in tsw
     
  24. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I repeat... Just because they had a license in TS1 doesn't mean they have a license for TSW
     
  25. seandouglas

    seandouglas Active Member

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    Yes and no... As far as I understand it they'll need a new license to use the branding in a different game, however given that they already have had SWT branding in a different game and already have a relationship with the company, it should be easier. I don't know what the technicalities are for the 707s and I also know nought about law... So...
     
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  26. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    The 700 series are owned by a company part owned by the manufacturer and part owned by some other (non-train) companies. It seems to be (ie we haven't had it confirmed by anyone anywhere publicly that I've seen (and I've looked a bit)) that it's at that point where the issue lays. We've had Thameslink, Govia and First in TS1 but never the 70x and I've not seen any 70x made in any train game other than by an unauthorised source (there's a 700 undrivable in TS1)
     
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  27. bradders059

    bradders059 New Member

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    It’s confusing with swt as that Company was owned by stagecoach but swt isn’t running anymore so would dovetail still even get a “ licence” for swt? Thinking about it swr is way more likely as that’s owned buy FIRST GROUP like gwr. So they already have a relationship with them and would hopefully be easier getting a license Off them
     
  28. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Licensing is a minefield anyway, and even saying things like "They have a relationship with them" is muddling it a bit. There's no reason to believe that the people they got the contract with for TS1 are with the company or companies any more so they may have a contract with said company without necessarily a "continuing relationship" with them
     
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  29. GTAGamer245

    GTAGamer245 Well-Known Member

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    Another part of the idea is that with Waterloo to Reading/Windsor via Richmond with the Hounslow loop line also being already the main part of the show we could also add the part of the South Western Mainline to Surbiton too if TSW2 could handle it so that we could see E.C.S scenarios where trains divert on the District line between Wimbledon and East Putney. Underground layers would be compatible if they add either the District, Circle or Hammersmith $ City lines to TSW2. But even though Underground layers would not exist yet if this would end up releasing first. We could use scenario planner to create an Underground service with the Bakerloo's 1972 Stock as a special District line service between Wimbledon and East Putney stopping all intermediate stops.
     
  30. guardupfront

    guardupfront Active Member

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    Great idea, and I’d be happy to supply traction and route reference data if they need as that route is my neck of the woods
     
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  31. guardupfront

    guardupfront Active Member

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    I’ve heard this before and I’m honestly not sure if the same extends to the 707 - they’re maintained by SWR rather than by Siemens and owned by Angel, whereas the 700/717 are Siemens maintained and owned by Eversholt (I think) - I imagine the nature of the ownership/lease could easily be different as 707s are the second generation of the Desiro City stock.

    I’ll do some digging though
     
  32. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Just checked
    707s are owned by Angel and maintained by SEHS (overhauls by or in association with Angel) https://angeltrains.co.uk/fleet/class-707/
    700s are owned by "Cross London trains" (which I think are the sticking point in this endeavour) which is part owned by Siemens but the rest owned by investment bankers (maybe with a w). Eversholt are the management and maintenance company in that instance https://www.3i-infrastructure.com/portfolio/past-portfolio/cross-london-trains-xlt/

    PS : Unfortunately none of this tells us who owns the IP to the shape of the 70x series of trains, which could be an entirely different company
     
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  33. guardupfront

    guardupfront Active Member

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    Ah yeah I forget there’s already a bunch of 707s with SE.

    Yeah I think I’m imagining that the arrangement with SW/SE directly being a lot simpler to get access than going via XLT/Eversholt, but the IP of the unit if retained by the manufacturer would be with Siemens who - if necessary - would have been involved/communicated with for the Class 450/444 in TS Classic, demonstrating a willingness to open their door to these kinds of requests.
    It’s a heavy assumption, however I will have a look through the DTG manual for the Portsmouth Direct and see how the traction came together.
     
  34. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Very
    My assumptions are based on there not being an officially licensed 70x in any train game, anywhere that I am aware of
     
  35. guardupfront

    guardupfront Active Member

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    Quite right, although it’s unknown how many have been attempted - I’ve only ever known of two in production and they became vapourware before the issue of licensing was ever raised
     
  36. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I know of one amateur (as in it wasn't a company) attempt, but they got so hounded by the community they gave up and did something else instead, like basket weaving
     
  37. seandouglas

    seandouglas Active Member

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    I think adding the SWML to Surbiton (I'm guessing including the Kingston Loop?) Would make the route too big for initial release. I'd very much welcome a SWML route with the branches that can be connected in some way to Waterloo-RDG/WNR so that you can do the scenarios and services you're thinking of!
     
  38. GTAGamer245

    GTAGamer245 Well-Known Member

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    The Kingston Loop would not be added, my idea will have the following services playable: Waterloo to Weybridge via Hounslow (Far as Virginia Water),
    Waterloo - Reading via Richmond (Hounslow in one of the scenarios), Waterloo - Windsor via Richmond, and peak hour Hounslow Loop indirect returns to Waterloo clockwise and anticlockwise. The services far as Surbiton will allow the Woking stopping services and Basingstoke services that stop at Clapham Junction, Wimbledon (sometimes) and then Surbiton. Another scenario will also need the District line built between Wimbledon and East Putney to allow a parliamentary service in the early morning that travels via this part presumably for route knowledge.
     
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  39. GTAGamer245

    GTAGamer245 Well-Known Member

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    Another thing I forgot to mention is possible AI services such as Southeastern on diversion to Waterloo along with the Southern and Gatwick Express services at Clapham Junction too which can be layered from Southeastern High Speed and London Commuter respectively.
     
  40. seandouglas

    seandouglas Active Member

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    I'd also add the Kingston Loop services from Waterloo to Strawberry Hill, but only that far.

    The scenarios look cool, but I don't know whether dtg would bother building more track for a scenario/a train a day especially as it goes quite far out the way... I can see the scenario starting at a red signal before joining the mainline again.

    Another scenario could be a match day at Twickenham and you're driving an extra train with lots of people on board stuck behind several other services.
     
  41. GTAGamer245

    GTAGamer245 Well-Known Member

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    That's a good idea, now we need to discuss route collectables with route maps as standard.
     
  42. GTAGamer245

    GTAGamer245 Well-Known Member

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    Guys, I'm proposing a final revision of South Western Commuter and it will work out this way: We can do a season ticket similar to Rush Hour and introduce the following routes: London Waterloo - Reading and Windor with the players choice to travel via Richmond or Hounslow as the first addon with the class 458/0 or 5 included along with owners of GWE having drivable layers between Wokingham and Reading with London Commuter owners having AI layers at Clapham Junction. London Waterloo to Basingstoke via Woking also including the diversion route via the District line between Wimbledon and Wandsworth Town for a scenario with the class 450 and 455 included as the second part of the bundle with owners of London Commuter also having AI layers at Clapham Junction and additionally Wimbledon. The third one will have the Portsmouth Direct Line between Woking and Portsmouth Harbour along with the branch from Portsmouth to Southampton also including the class 450 with East Coastway, GWE and London Commuter owners having drivable layers of class 313, 166 and 377 layers. Final part will be to feature Southampton Central to Basingstoke with the line between Basingstoke and Reading also included so that the Crosscountry class 221 can be added either as a addon or work with the class 444 as a default locomotive with GWE having layers from Reading to Basingstoke and at Southampton Central along with class 66 Container trains going to Southampton Docks and 377/313 layers from London Commuter and East Coastway.

    Sorry if it sounds completely ridiculous.
     
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  43. seandouglas

    seandouglas Active Member

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    I like the idea of bundling separate routes with the same theme together, as long as they can join up and make a mega-network rather than be completely separate. I can see them releasing these routes with large gaps between them, as you don't want to only work for one small portion of your market at one time. Though, once a few of the routes have been released, a SWT bundle would be very good.
     
  44. GTAGamer245

    GTAGamer245 Well-Known Member

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    Well TSW2 has yet to merge separate routes like for example, East Coastway and London Commuter together.
     
  45. GTAGamer245

    GTAGamer245 Well-Known Member

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    And don't mind me asking. But how did Rivet and Skyhook Games get permission as a third party dev for TSW2, because I want to do the same thing that they did.
     
  46. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Start with "general enquiries" on this page https://dovetailgames.com/contact
     
  47. seandouglas

    seandouglas Active Member

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    As far as I've heard, they've managed to physically link two routes together, however the issues come with the timetable, as I don't think they've managed to link timetables together. I'm sure they're thinking about it though, it seems to be something the community really wants.
     

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