Br187=sounds Of 185

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by KoeleKoen, Oct 13, 2021.

Tags:
  1. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2019
    Messages:
    4,369
    Likes Received:
    7,214
    £11.99 for takeaway tomorrow night instead all.

    this is not polluting my purchase list.

    Im going to wait until DTG release something better themselves
     
    • Like Like x 2
  2. Oystein

    Oystein Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2018
    Messages:
    180
    Likes Received:
    274
    Are there any differences between sounds on 185.2 and 185.5? Or could DTG add the new 185.5 sounds to 185.2?
     
  3. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2020
    Messages:
    11,735
    Likes Received:
    17,949
    In real life all the TRAXX 2 F140s have the same engineering plant and sound the same. The 185.5 is just the internationalized version of the 185.2. (However, the TRAXX 3 series (147/187) has different mechanicals and different sounds.)

    In game, however, the new Dresden 185.5 got a complete sound makeover which is infinitely better, and ought to be ported over to the 185.2s as well but hasn't been.
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Helpful Helpful x 2
  4. Oystein

    Oystein Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2018
    Messages:
    180
    Likes Received:
    274
    Thanks for that info.
    I love the sounds in 185.5, so I hope we can get those ported over to 185.2.
     
  5. Oystein

    Oystein Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2018
    Messages:
    180
    Likes Received:
    274
    Does this 187 come with the "last mile" function in TSW?
     
  6. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2016
    Messages:
    2,956
    Likes Received:
    3,934
    No, because DB's don't have it, apparently.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  7. dreampage

    dreampage Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2018
    Messages:
    530
    Likes Received:
    928
    In my opinion, the product should not have been released at all in this state. Sound capture is part of the modeling of a locomotive. It's perfectly understandable that due to the pandemic the developers were unable to travel and capture the sounds necessary. But then, they should've just shelved this project and said they couldn't do it because of this reason. It should've been postponed indefinitely, until the situation gets better. But deliberately taking an incorrect sound set and using that in the released product is not acceptable for a simulator. It would be in a mainstream, arcade-y game or whatever, but not here where authenticity is what the playerbase is interested in. This is a textbook case of financial goals being more important than quality. I blame Skyhook for this attitude, but I think DTG has responsibility as well, they allowed this to happen with their own game, while their own content have their range of issues as well. This just further erodes trust that future content will be held to a high standard of quality.

    Even worse, they knew this was the case and no one communicated this prior to release. There was no preview stream either.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2021
    • Like Like x 15
  8. AhhCaffeine

    AhhCaffeine Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2021
    Messages:
    21
    Likes Received:
    32
    I don't understand their excuse by blaming the pandemic. Either (as you've said) they could've postponed it, but also you can't just use the pandemic as an excuse for everything. I suppose they could've found a solution if they really wanted, both for the travelling part via means of the vaccine or covid tests and the arranging the locomotive for the recording shouldn't be restricted by the pandemic either (couldn't see a reason for this).
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2018
    Messages:
    2,820
    Likes Received:
    3,387
    So DTG announced they're not changing the sounds.

    ...and there goes a quarter of the sales.

    For me, it's gone from a 'must buy' to a 'sale only'. For many it's 'never'. They are making a big mistake here. It's almost like we've been transported back to 2015 with this sort of customer service. Eyes shut, head in the sand, refuse to do anything about it.

    It shouldn't have been released at all. No DLC is better than bad DLC, and it seems the hope we had in 2020 for TSW has vanished. As I said earlier, this is what you'd expect in 2015. The Class 91 had terrible sounds and was completely broken. Never fixed. The Class 321 was a crime against humanity. Never fixed. The MRCE Dispolok pack, a pack of reskins for badly made trains. Never fixed. Full price.

    It's unfortunate that pretty much every release for TSW2 since London-Faversham has been bad. When the best DLCs were released on 2019, you know something has gone wrong with the developers.
     
    • Like Like x 6
  10. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2019
    Messages:
    2,123
    Likes Received:
    3,198
    As soon as they update it, add appropriate safety systems, get the sounds right and add PSN trophies, it'll definitely be on my maybe in a sale list. :)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. bobbobberdd

    bobbobberdd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2020
    Messages:
    1,117
    Likes Received:
    1,568
    Above all, there are now almost no Covid measures in Germany, except for keeping a distance of 1.5 meters and a mask. As long as you are vaccinated, you can theoretically do everything you could do before Covid
     
    • Like Like x 6
  12. JonnE

    JonnE Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2020
    Messages:
    541
    Likes Received:
    964
    Some relatives of mine also had no problems travelling from England to Germany and back multiple times this year. But of course it's easy to blame the pandemic...
     
    • Like Like x 6
  13. SkidMarkYT

    SkidMarkYT Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2021
    Messages:
    66
    Likes Received:
    60
    Even the headlights are incorrect. Bottom light's for reduced or normal operations, top lights for high beam. C'mon SHG that's just lazy. Look at the many thousands of pictures on google or videos on YouTube. Covid can't be blamed for every thing you messed up on.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2021
    • Like Like x 2
  14. matinakbary

    matinakbary Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2020
    Messages:
    1,701
    Likes Received:
    4,370
    • Like Like x 6
    • Helpful Helpful x 2
  15. Mattty May

    Mattty May Guest

    Definitely taking us for fools. We are train enthusiasts - of course we’ll know.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  16. Tigert1966

    Tigert1966 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2020
    Messages:
    1,599
    Likes Received:
    2,651
    Good for them. Perhaps next time they could give DB a call and go and record some train sounds if it’s that easy.

    There are lots of people here that live in Germany. But we can’t all just rock up and climb over DB 187s whenever we like.

    I’m not buying it either, but it’s not easy getting the recordings without proper access.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  17. Mattty May

    Mattty May Guest

    You cannot defend the indefensible.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  18. zefreak

    zefreak Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2021
    Messages:
    110
    Likes Received:
    196
    Not going to buy it even on sale unless they commit to fixing these issues
     
    • Like Like x 1
  19. wxtr7

    wxtr7 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2019
    Messages:
    210
    Likes Received:
    751
    Some thoughts as I've read this this thread:
    A while ago, DTG finally realized we care about sound, and we got the "we need to do better" and I think generally DTG has done great on that (just look at Rush hour routes). But where they're failing, and it's not just sound, is enforcing a quality standard upon third party developers. I haven't bought anything from Rivet or Skyhook, but it's clear DTG doesn't hold them to any sort of standard other than the bare minimum for release.

    If I wanted the 187, yeah I probably wouldn't have known that the 185 sounds were used because I've never seen or heard one IRL. And in response to the "outside of Germany wouldn't notice" there's still Youtube, and I'm a sucker for a good sounding train, don't think I won't go and "virtual rail fan." But the fact that no one at DTG or on the beta team even raised an eyebrow at the sounds being the old broken sounds that have been a major source of complaint for over a year? WOW, just wow...
    Traveling to get actual recordings may be difficult, but there's other avenues. Did Skyhook even ask DTG which sounds they should pull as a substitute? Did they reach out to third party audio providers? Did they see if DTG could on their behalf?

    This just makes me scared for the Horseshoe curve route Skyhook is doing. The ES44 is my absolute favorite US loco, and I'm already expecting it to be poor quality with the AC4400 sounds (even though its a completely different engine and sounds nothing like that).
     
    • Like Like x 3
  20. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2020
    Messages:
    3,720
    Likes Received:
    6,164
    Don't forget that it'll ride too high on the trucks and the rear truck won't be animated. Hope you're not looking for functional number board lights either.

    On a more serious note, between Cane Creek and the DB Br 187, I have serious doubts concerning Skyhook's ability to craft locos. Using the wrong sounds due to Covid is one thing, but the myriad of other issues the loco suffers from (see here) in addition to that is unacceptable.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  21. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Has left the building Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2020
    Messages:
    1,331
    Likes Received:
    7,877
    You're right to criticise that, my apologies. That was based of an incorrect assumption on my part - and I'd moved from "just show it as it is" to acting defensive given the number of incoming hostile comments, which I shouldn't have done.
     
    • Like Like x 20
  22. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2019
    Messages:
    3,177
    Likes Received:
    9,162
    What is the potential of having skyhook at least update the current sounds to the fixed version of those sounds?

    Honestly the re-use of a sound file isn’t as much the issue at the moment, it’s the fact they’ve used the broken ported version from TSW 2020, which of course we had to make a lot of noise about to get corrected anyway.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  23. Bradley

    Bradley Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2018
    Messages:
    917
    Likes Received:
    1,364
    To be honest I think you did a good job with what you had been given, it’s definitely not your nor DTGs fault and thought you did a great entertaining job on the stream
     
    • Like Like x 7
  24. matinakbary

    matinakbary Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2020
    Messages:
    1,701
    Likes Received:
    4,370
    You did great, Sam. Really appreciated your directness. And yeah, this sentence was maybe not the best. But it's okay, in this quiet heated conversation sometimes people say things that are maybe not completly thought through. You have provided all the information you had and read maaaany questions. Thank for the stream, Colonel!
     
  25. neddyie116

    neddyie116 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2018
    Messages:
    126
    Likes Received:
    71
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2021
  26. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Has left the building Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2020
    Messages:
    1,331
    Likes Received:
    7,877
    From the statement they've given me that will be dependent on being able to secure a proper BR187 sound set. Switching to the newer BR185 set is certainly possible but I have no information one way or another on their intentions with that regard. We'll try to get a more formal update from them to send your way.
     
    • Like Like x 5
    • Helpful Helpful x 2
  27. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2019
    Messages:
    4,369
    Likes Received:
    7,214
    • Like Like x 1
  28. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2019
    Messages:
    3,177
    Likes Received:
    9,162
    This is the kind of the point, it’s clear that we aren’t to be expecting the actual 187 sounds any time soon, but I really think that we should at least have the most up to date version of the current 185 sounds, seems silly to use the old, broken version.

    Thanks for your reply anyhow.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  29. neddyie116

    neddyie116 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2018
    Messages:
    126
    Likes Received:
    71
    Yeah I totally agree!!
     
  30. Sheldon1000

    Sheldon1000 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2020
    Messages:
    221
    Likes Received:
    430
    It's a poor show for a SIMULATOR. Shouldn't have been released in this state and if sounds were going to remain as they are, a statement should have went out BEFORE it went on sale. A preview should have been done before release too. I feel DTG should be more involved with the individual developers to ensure the quality of DLC being sold under their name, is of good quality and won't harm the company (DTG) in any way.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  31. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2020
    Messages:
    11,735
    Likes Received:
    17,949
    I didn't hear that. What I heard Sam say is that Skyhook are hoping to get to record a real 187 and redo the sounds... at some unknown future time.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  32. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2021
    Messages:
    3,502
    Likes Received:
    7,692
    What ever your views on the sound and other issues, the fact that SHG failed to provide someone to do a preview and then agains didnt have anyone available tonight for the release stream looks bad.

    You cant dress it up any other, it looks like they are hiding away rather than face up and answer the feedback regardless if it is just a combination of coincidental events.

    Whatever your views are of the 1938 stock and rivet in general (and I arent their biggest fan) atleast they showed up and defended their product and in the case of Jasper held his hands up and said things needed looking at (namely the volume) and atleast said some of the other minor issues would be discussed internally. SHG on the other hands left it to DTG to defend their product and offer explanations.
     
    • Like Like x 5
  33. dubsox

    dubsox Member

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2021
    Messages:
    17
    Likes Received:
    51
    Honestly, what I found insulting is Sam saying "any railfan outside of Germany wouldn't even notice". Yes, yes they do. I'm from the UK and have no idea what a 187 sounds like in real life, but the fact is the sounds they used are broken sounds copied from another train. I mean, they could have at least used the updated sounds from the 185 if they were going to copy any sounds.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2021
  34. Ben132465798

    Ben132465798 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2021
    Messages:
    172
    Likes Received:
    289
    If skyhood woul've openly communicated this with like
    "We aren't able to get sounds for now but we will patch them later on" it'd be something else, but with NO COMMUNICATION AT ALL it feels just not like they'd want anything
     
  35. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2020
    Messages:
    11,735
    Likes Received:
    17,949
    There I would disagree. Clinchfield is very good. Cathcart is very good. The 465 is excellent, as is the 101. And Brighton Mainline, though it has some small issues, is on the whole a really great route (certainly better than SEHS). Dresden also is very good, especially with the Meißen branch (although my potato PC struggles with the asset-heavy Dresden Hbf area).

    Boston is the only one which has really fallen down; just like with NEC New York and LIRR, DTG can't seem to get American in-cab signaling sorted.
     
    • Like Like x 8
  36. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2016
    Messages:
    2,956
    Likes Received:
    3,934
    I feel like a broken record whenever this comes up - they most likely DID pick it up, Skyhook just didn't do anything. If an error or bug exists, it likely got picked up by DTG's internal beta team (if 3rd party stuff goes through them), but that means absolutely nothing if the devs don't/can't fix it.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  37. goochdog#5870

    goochdog#5870 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2020
    Messages:
    406
    Likes Received:
    609
    Heh , I was thinking the same when it started sans skyhook
     
    • Like Like x 2
  38. SLBM

    SLBM Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2021
    Messages:
    76
    Likes Received:
    170
    I took a bit of offence at that as well, however he did come here later and apologised for this comment (here in this thread), which I found very decent.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  39. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2020
    Messages:
    11,735
    Likes Received:
    17,949
    Having listened through the stream now, I think some folks here are spot on with their criticisms, but others are rather too round.

    Covid seems to be dismissed right off the bat as a "cheap excuse;" but one has to keep in mind that doing a sound survey of a locomotive is not simply a matter of standing at a level crossing and switching on your mic when a train goes by, or even hanging about in a switchyard (assuming one isn't trespassing). A sound survey is like a photo survey for the 3D modelers, who climb all over a loco inside and out and take jillions of photos and videos from every conceivable angle. Even more complicated, because a photo survey can be done with the engine shut down; not so a sound survey, which has to be done in conjunction with a driver (with the full cooperation of the TOC) to record, from multiple points inside and outside, every machinery and audio state from idle to full-power acceleration to all variants of braking. And while ultimately visual modelers are copying an original, building a new thing out of pixels which replicates the real thing, and so can work from photos new and old, for sound you actually have to record the real thing.

    According to the email from SHG which Sam read, they originally conceived the idea of doing the 187 (in late 2019, almost two years ago), because they had contacts in Germany who could arrange a BR 187 sound survey. But then COVID hit. This was not just a general "well, people could have managed to get to Germany anyway" situation; COVID led DB to impose a ban, which is still in place to this day, on any outsiders being granted access to their nonpublic facilities. Additionally, SHG's contacts, due to the service and labour-force disruptions occasioned by the pandemic, were moved off of 187s to other locos and so that avenue has dried up.

    So I don't think it's fair to lambast SHG for not getting original 187 recordings. Act of God.

    However, I do think that they can be faulted for using the sounds they did. It's no secret that the post-TSW2 TRAXX sounds were the most hated in the whole franchise, and users have been on DTG for well over a year to fix them. Only just lately has there been a marginal improvement to the old MSB locos, and the completely revised and improved sound set for the Dresden 185.5. But then there's the rub- how could Skyhook not be aware of the issue, and why could they not use the new Dresden files rather than the bolloxed old MSB 4.23 port sounds? And it can't be said that they hadn't the time or fair warning, since the virus mess began over a year and a half ago.

    (They also can be faulted for not getting the technical markings right, just slovenly copy-pasting them from a 147)
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2021
    • Like Like x 6
  40. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2020
    Messages:
    3,720
    Likes Received:
    6,164
    solicitr, you‘re talking about Skyhook, not TSG. There was no TSG involvement in the Br 187. Just want to clarify this point before misunderstandings happen.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  41. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2020
    Messages:
    11,735
    Likes Received:
    17,949
    OUCH! Complete brain-fart. Will edit.

    (Sorry, Maik!)
     
    • Like Like x 3
  42. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2020
    Messages:
    6,567
    Likes Received:
    10,793
    • Like Like x 3
  43. Ben132465798

    Ben132465798 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2021
    Messages:
    172
    Likes Received:
    289
    Only a few hours after release. And skyhook had so much time...
     
    • Like Like x 1
  44. goochdog#5870

    goochdog#5870 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2020
    Messages:
    406
    Likes Received:
    609
    If there was no Covid, Skyhook would have blame Brexit , if there was no Brexit they would have blamed the dog for eating the blueprints.
    :mad:
     
    • Like Like x 7
  45. Maik Goltz

    Maik Goltz Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2016
    Messages:
    952
    Likes Received:
    4,345
    No problem at all.

    But i would have been able to deliver 187 sound in any sort while the pandemic. That's really not an excuse (we all know that the pandemic is an excuse for so much right now). It would maybe not the perfect sound, but more to the original then. But no one was asking, what is not a blame. They might not know about the possibility. I always can try to manage some stuff to get Sound. I managed it to get fresh IC coaches sound while the pandemic. And also some other bits. It is possible. For sure there is no chance to do a recording session as usual at the moment at all. I doubt that this will ever be possible again at all. Only with some vitamin B.
     
    • Like Like x 15
    • Helpful Helpful x 2
  46. Ben132465798

    Ben132465798 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2021
    Messages:
    172
    Likes Received:
    289
    I'd donate as well, so maybe, just maybe, give it a thought
     
    • Like Like x 1
  47. bobbobberdd

    bobbobberdd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2020
    Messages:
    1,117
    Likes Received:
    1,568
    Not necessarily, if the modder were ready to work with Skyhook or DTG, then maybe the same thing could happen as with the Skymod that is currently on the roadmap
     
    • Like Like x 1
  48. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2020
    Messages:
    6,567
    Likes Received:
    10,793
    You have a point
     
  49. bobbobberdd

    bobbobberdd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2020
    Messages:
    1,117
    Likes Received:
    1,568
    If the 187 has been in planning since the end of 2019, I would be interested to know whether it was planned for Cologne-Aachen the whole time.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  50. 7orenz

    7orenz Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2018
    Messages:
    814
    Likes Received:
    1,062
    Couldn't someone (DTG?) get in touch with the creator of the sound changes and Skyhook to purchase the audio files of the BR 187? Among other things, in the link above (and below) it says that the author of the audio files is using the BR 185 because he does not yet own the new BR 187. They could give him the BR 187 for free in exchange for the audio files and we would all be happier . I also speak for those who play on consoles and will not be able to benefit from the mod.

    Link: irFlouz's TSW 2 Enhancement Packs - Page 2 - Projekte - Rail-Sim.de - Die deutsche Train Simulator Community
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2021
    • Like Like x 6

Share This Page