Br187=sounds Of 185

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by KoeleKoen, Oct 13, 2021.

Tags:
  1. VolvoB10M

    VolvoB10M Guest

    How do you turn on head/marker lights? I have the switch on the back wall set to lead and the headlight switch set to bright but they are off.
     
  2. mattfr

    mattfr New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2020
    Messages:
    18
    Likes Received:
    10
    I did want to record my screen as well, but for some reason it was not picked up.. Anyway here's how the lok sounds in Zusi:
    music to my ears
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. VolvoB10M

    VolvoB10M Guest

    After running the 187 why does it freeze when I try and go on the main menu?
     
  4. goochdog#5870

    goochdog#5870 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2020
    Messages:
    406
    Likes Received:
    609
    Blimey , it really does sound like it
     
  5. w2sjw

    w2sjw Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2020
    Messages:
    147
    Likes Received:
    192
    Once you turn the switch on the back wall to 'auto', there is a set of steps that have to be completed in the right-side MFD. It's covered in the training scenario.
     
  6. VolvoB10M

    VolvoB10M Guest

    I have that on the panel all the way up to bright as well as the switch on the back of the cab switched on but they will not work, only the tail lights when the back switch is set to tail.
     
  7. victor.malhard

    victor.malhard New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2020
    Messages:
    14
    Likes Received:
    8
    I gave up. Without any comment from the developers, I asked for a refund. I have never felt so disrespected for having bought a game/DLC...
     
    • Like Like x 3
  8. erg73

    erg73 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2020
    Messages:
    872
    Likes Received:
    3,030
    You have done very well. We can't reward the poor job they have done. 83% negative reviews on steam... Pathetic! The message we send them has to be loud and clear, we don't accept this standard of quality or the lack of transparency they have had with customers. The way to make them understand this is to affect their pockets. If they want our hard earned money, they should make an effort to deserve it.
     
    • Like Like x 6
  9. KoeleKoen

    KoeleKoen Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2020
    Messages:
    360
    Likes Received:
    684
    Ouch....is this the first time a TSW product reached VERY negative?
    a06adcf3de6b21977db40aca8782ec5a.png
     
    • Like Like x 8
  10. whitus

    whitus Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2021
    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    48
    I see some people being pure ignorants and saying that the 187 is like any other DB machine already in game. I’d love to see if the sound issue was about some british stock, how big of a riot would invade the forum?

    Just because you don’t care about making things right in stock from other country than yours, doesn’t mean that the work should be done inappropriately and sold for money to public. There’s no discussion that the sounds should be changed and improved. They’re just wrong. Period.

    I’ve felt weird during the stream hearing that „well, thats your opinion which always will be right”. Come on, the guy presenting it works for a studio that makes a train simulator, at the same time having clearly no idea about the stuff and trains he presents. Why is it so hard these days to admit that „yes, we fckd up and sounds are wrong, we’re concious of that”. Instead just mumbling and trying to make the whole thing like nothing happened. Why the priority isn’t in making all DLC’s as best as you can, instead you’re searching for reason to gain an approval in community for poorly made addons?

    Well, you see. I’m from Poland and that doesn’t make me not care about quality of representating the train DLC’s from other countries. If you’re a railfan, you should point out things done badly. Not being an ignorant.

    I’ve been really excited about the release of 187. But after several videos watched, nothing’s gonna make me buy it until the errors will get a correction. You may not care, but thats my right to think so and maybe begin to take your job seriously.
     
    • Like Like x 12
  11. KoeleKoen

    KoeleKoen Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2020
    Messages:
    360
    Likes Received:
    684
    Yeah the downplaying of the issue by someone who's not that into trains ticked me off a bit.. "our reaction was extreme" yeah maybe it gets updated maybe not big deal.... Really?
     
    • Like Like x 3
  12. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2017
    Messages:
    3,312
    Likes Received:
    8,665
    I don't really care about this locomotive personally, as I'm not into german stuff really, but I think the uproar of the community is pretty justified.

    I mean... completely reusing sounds from other trains in like... Trainz standard. And it's a lame move even among Trainz standards, and something you would only expect in freeware content. What's next? Reusing cabs from different trains? That's also pretty widely done in Trainz. If I pay ful price for a locomotive add-on, then I expect it to be unique. Unique not only in looks, but driving characteristics and sounds as well.

    It's understandable if they couldn't actually go there and record the real thing, but I can't believe there was no other option. Like synthesize sounds, use the recording from Train Simulator or at least modify the original 185 recordings to make them sound different, if you really can't get hold of actual new recordings.

    Even if you try to understand their side and their challenges, it's still simply something that you wouldn't want to pay money for. Then sounds aside, I've heard it got quite a few other problems as well. No wonder it got such bad reviews.
     
    • Like Like x 10
  13. JBViper

    JBViper Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2020
    Messages:
    330
    Likes Received:
    799
    The sound is only the "visible" part of the iceberg, not to mention the problems of AFB (unusable), LZB (unusable), PZB (buggy display), etc. Quite simply, I don't understand that DTG's QA has agreed to release this DLC. After the first release of ArosaLinie, we were promised a real improvement in quality assurance with third-party developers, we can see the result. Finally, I'm afraid that this DLC devalues the TSW license and demotivates serious developers to join the adventure because players will be reluctant to buy from third parties (not to mention the harsh reviews that do not please when you is a company, even if it does not affect him directly, it will reflect on your work).

    Personally, if nothing is done to fix this DLC, I would not buy anything from Skyhook Games. And I admit that if a new developer arrives, I would be hesitant to buy these first DLCs because DTG will not play the role of barrier guard.
     
    • Like Like x 15
  14. appledates#4945

    appledates#4945 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2021
    Messages:
    410
    Likes Received:
    687
    I do find it odd, yes! Considering they are in the same partnership with DTG making 3rd party content. Your post makes this point even more valid as he obviously is well known in this community as such. If I had business making 3rd party content for TSW2, you wouldn’t see me on forums saying another 3rd party developers “excuses” aren’t valid and how if it was me it could have been accomplished. You wouldn’t see me comment on any other developers dlc at all actually as I wouldn’t want to cause an issue. Although I appreciate the transparency as a customer, I think that’s just bad business practice especially when your talking about another developer working for the same company.
     
  15. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2017
    Messages:
    3,422
    Likes Received:
    18,126
    It’s things like this which is why long term TS1 players are reluctant to move over to TSW.

    What sort of message does it give them when a developer thinks it’s okay to quite literally copy and paste sounds from one train to another, despite it being a completely different train?

    Not one word from Skyhook either. They clearly knew the uproar it would cause so they are unsurprisingly hiding away. Very unprofessional and I recommend a review of what has happened takes place.
     
    • Like Like x 15
  16. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2019
    Messages:
    4,369
    Likes Received:
    7,214
    I think with the floating rocks , incorrect bogies and now the incorrect sounds skyhooks credibility among those outside casual gamers has plummeted
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. VolvoB10M

    VolvoB10M Guest

    I did not realise how bad this actually was. I assumed the fuss was more like how some complained that some of the same class 377 sounds were being used on the new 379 and 387 enhancement by AP when the sound of the inverters on the newer Electrostars are apparently different, although I can't tell by watching videos of them. However after buying the 379/387 I noticed there were noticeable differences in cab equipment sounds as well as a completely new set of passenger interiors to go with each livery among other things, on top of that those who previously purchased the other 375 & 377 pack were given discounts on the latest one. The BR187 has none of what AP offered in the Electrostar enhancement pack.

    I do feel stupid sometimes comparing TSW addons to TSC addons because of the extra features TSW addons typically have from interactable panels in coaches to the engine compartment on the EMD locos and outside engine control panels on the Metro-Cammel 101, I even sometimes find myself in TSW going through an entire train on a fault finding mission to figure out why the brakes won't release. This has very little to offer even with the extra features offered in the TSW system which don't even seem to work. I let the Cane Creek slide for having floating boulders on embankments and in the middle of the track since the rest of the route is nice to look at and I think the route is set in Nevada so floating boulders can simply just be blamed on Aliens trying to prank passing train drivers. I also let Lawn Mowing Simulator being unusable without Xbox or the latest Logitech controllers slide since support for Thrustmaster T150 may be added at a later date (you can't use keyboard as it steers way too sharply and you just cannot practically regulate speed) I am also not going back to using Logitech controllers as I have had two burnt out and one that started to fall apart after the casing cracked. But I don't think this DLC is just worth anywhere near the price I paid for it. Even for someone who has never seen a real BR187 in my entire life, I can tell how far off the real thing this really is. A complete opposite to the first time I ever saw an OMSI preview and though it was a joke because the sounds and Voith D851 behaviour was far too realistic.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 16, 2021
    • Like Like x 1
  18. VolvoB10M

    VolvoB10M Guest

    I originally thought the BR187 was a facelifted design derivative of the BR185 because of the little information about them on English language pages. But I know now they are completely different with a whole different VVVF-IGBT system too than the previous versions. I never once said any DB rolling stock was the same. I would assume there are more unique vehicles in Germany than the UK, especially road vehicles since the UK have been trying to wipe out classics recently and will probably turn on trains by 2030.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  19. whitus

    whitus Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2021
    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    48
    Its not bad not to know. Its bad being proud of not giving single f about doing some research and think more before posting „well no differences to me”.

    Yeah, you don’t have to actually see one in real life to experience the difference to previous generation. You can actually open up (warning) YOUTUBE and (second warning) type BR187. Which is enough to get decent example of difference in sound.

    In terms of visual difference. Well it may be more complicated, cause then you have to type two locos in Google and then compare them to each other. Incredible.

    Yes, I’m half joking here, cause I can’t believe that some people writing this sort of ignorant rant believes its the proper way to look at world. Good luck then.


    Its not NASA sience to not have access to this sort of knowledge and resources, still some people seem to show that doing research is unnescessary and all people pointing out errors here are just bored gamers trying to find another reason to complain about.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  20. Lunar_Twisted

    Lunar_Twisted Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2019
    Messages:
    273
    Likes Received:
    426
    If Skyhook Games doesn’t fix the sound for the DB BR 187, then I am unwilling to buy future products from them.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2021
    • Like Like x 2
  21. irFlouz

    irFlouz Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2020
    Messages:
    44
    Likes Received:
    164
    Thanks to a very generous community member I have been able to get the 187 - making it easier for me to mod it.

    - Replaced all sounds from previous version
    - Added new sounds for higher speeds
    - Added new fan sounds
    - Modified files so the tones change at the correct speeds

    The next step would be to adjust the pitches of some sounds.
     
    • Like Like x 30
  22. irFlouz

    irFlouz Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2020
    Messages:
    44
    Likes Received:
    164
    Yup, freshly recorded around 10 hours ago :P
     
    • Like Like x 6
  23. matinakbary

    matinakbary Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2020
    Messages:
    1,701
    Likes Received:
    4,370
    On the one hand i really want to have a good sounding 187. On the other hand i don't want to give Skyhook a Penny for this loco (I'd happily give the money to the mod author(s)).
    Before Skyhook at least hasn't fixed LZB, PZB, Afb, i won't buy it. Maybe after that. On a sale, i guess. But only because the work of the community.
     
    • Like Like x 6
  24. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2020
    Messages:
    6,567
    Likes Received:
    10,793
    The fact that you were able to get decent sounds compared to skyhook says alot really. Maybe they aren't as passionate about this train

    You deserve a round of applause :)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  25. JBViper

    JBViper Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2020
    Messages:
    330
    Likes Received:
    799
    A pleasure to have a beautiful and true sound, we take pleasure in looking at this BR 187. Thank you for your great work.
    It's true, Skyhook will be able to thank you because thanks to you, potential buyers are available to them. Maybe it would interest them to work with you on this project and that you also derive some benefit from it.
    Personally, I had given up on the BR 187, but now I am thinking of going back to it.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  26. Richard CZE

    Richard CZE Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2020
    Messages:
    544
    Likes Received:
    584
    Great job. The sound of the locomotive is very nice.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  27. DB628

    DB628 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2019
    Messages:
    1,711
    Likes Received:
    2,421

    Are you send this to skyhook please
     
    • Like Like x 1
  28. VolvoB10M

    VolvoB10M Guest

    I did not saying I don't give a damn about them, I did look for recordings but I did not get any results other than TP 185s. I was asking just what the differences are and said I thought they were similar then I just get called out because I don't speak German and couldn't read the information about them.
     
  29. whitus

    whitus Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2021
    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    48
    But my words aren’t directly to you man. Its all good on my side.
     
  30. VolvoB10M

    VolvoB10M Guest

    I thought the 187 was a derivative of the 185 and similar as far as the information I had found considering the 185 186 and 187 was on the same Wikipedia page and had no details on the VVVF-IGBT equipment. Quick searches on YouTube revealed nothing of relevance due to the recent changes in algorithm that only suggest content from favoured channels. I asked what the differences are and get this, now I just got a YT notification this was commented on one of my videos with no other context but sounds like it relates to my last post here:

    Capturets.JPG

    Who is Cameron Grant? I did French in years 7 to 10 and Spanish in year 11 which was over 10 years ago. The only German words I know are whatever is written on the dashboard or blinds in OMSI. Bremse = Brake, Tur = Door, Ein/Aus = On/Off, Betriebsfahrt = Depot, Fahrschule = Driver Training, Schulbus = Prison Bus.

    Edit: Two notifications of a similar nature now, nothing appears on the video though. Whoever Cameron is is either deleting his own comments or getting bopped by YT bots. Just thought I have seen him before now as well.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 17, 2021
  31. KoeleKoen

    KoeleKoen Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2020
    Messages:
    360
    Likes Received:
    684
    Thanks for your work, again it's left up to the community to fix it.. But skyhook is not.. Off the hook.. (sorry) they still need to fix pzb, lzb, afb
     
    • Like Like x 2
  32. matinakbary

    matinakbary Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2020
    Messages:
    1,701
    Likes Received:
    4,370
    Also interesting: There is a german train driver, who also drives the 147 (the sister of the 187). And he does Youtube as well.

    In this video, he tells us, that actually he had contact with Skyhook and sent them reference material AND sound recordings. So Skyhook saying "We didn't get any sound recordings due Covid" is just a lie. Pretty sad.



    If you turn the subtitles on, you can make youtube automatically translate it to english (or any other language). I really recommend you to watch it (this is no advertisment or something). He has the expertise of a real train driver as well as helping game development. It's pretty damning for Skyhook and even if there is a mod, i will not give them a Penny for the 187, before they improved the sounds (and PZB, LZB, Afb) themselves.
     
    • Like Like x 9
  33. matinakbary

    matinakbary Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2020
    Messages:
    1,701
    Likes Received:
    4,370
    He is. He also has instagram and stuff and also did some freeware projects in the german TS community. I'm watching his videos for years and even chatted with him. I don't see any reason why he should NOT be trusted.

    And yes, i really start to appreciate Rivet as well. At least we all can see now, that the rivet devs really love their work. Sure, still many problems but you see their dedication. It's not easy for a small studio, but i see a good future for Rivet. But Skyhook? That's just a shame.
     
    • Like Like x 5
    • Helpful Helpful x 1
  34. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2020
    Messages:
    3,718
    Likes Received:
    6,162
    I saw that video as well thanks to li150special. I do find it baffling that they were in contact with him and still managed to make so many mistakes (not even counting sound). He said that he was never contacted for a beta, why not, Skyhook? How difficult could it have been to show him the completed work and get his input on any crucial mistakes? Besides, while it doesn't affect us players, I do think it was somewhat impolite to not even gift him a key for the loco. He spent a considerable amount of time and effort to get Skyhook research material and doesn't even get a Thank you in return.
     
    • Like Like x 6
  35. erg73

    erg73 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2020
    Messages:
    872
    Likes Received:
    3,030
    I really didn't know this company, I went to their website (https://skyhookgames.com/about-us/) Here are some excerpts:
    -"Welcome to Skyhook Games, we're here to lift you out of tricky situations"
    -"Your game art will be carefully looked after by our experienced team"
    -"If you're looking for the creation of realistic environments, props and vehicles, then you've landed in the right place."
    -"We continually demonstrate that our outputs match our promises."
    -"We bring experienced hands and a thoughtful approach to everything we do. We're always striving to do better and have open conversations to reach the best possible outcome."
    -"We are an organisation filled with passionate staff. We genuinely enjoy what we do, we are always keen to learn more and we put real care into each project."

    I thought it was funny about "We're here to lift you out of tricky situations" because with 187 it seems to be just the opposite with DTG. :D
     
    • Like Like x 2
  36. dbrunner#4864

    dbrunner#4864 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2021
    Messages:
    392
    Likes Received:
    533
    Fantastic work, the sounds are top notch. And that in just 2-3 days of work!
     
  37. mclitke

    mclitke Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2020
    Messages:
    1,227
    Likes Received:
    2,758
    Interesting,so according to him he did some sound recordings in the exact way he was told to by skyhook, yet somehow they said they didnt have sound files... The shroud around this dlc gets shadier every day.
     
    • Like Like x 6
  38. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2017
    Messages:
    3,312
    Likes Received:
    8,665
    If this really is true, then maybe they didn't contact him for a beta in purpose so he doesn't have any inputs. I mean if he finds problems before release, then assumably they have to fix them. But this way they can simply say the problems just slipped through testing and they might fix it at a later date.

    I mean it's not uncommon to find people who do their work with this mindset. "It may not work so let's not test it", "Only fix it if they complain about it", I've heard quite a few statements like this during my work. So I wouldn't be suprised if they simply couldn't be bothered to make it better, so didn't even try to get input from testers.

    Of course, that's just an assumption and let's take this whole situation with a grain of salt, but still... if it's true, that's pretty lame. Even if it's not true, it's still a bad add-on anyway. It's a lame situation either way, when you work on something for more than a year and the community fixes it in a week.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  39. matinakbary

    matinakbary Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2020
    Messages:
    1,701
    Likes Received:
    4,370
    Well, that's actually the best conculsion i've read, yet. 100% true and i really really hope that DTG sees how this DLC is worse than anything that has been published for TSW before. Rivet's Arosa is a masterpiece in comparison to the 187. Not even sarcastic here :D
     
    • Like Like x 3
  40. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2020
    Messages:
    3,718
    Likes Received:
    6,162
    True enough. No matter what the explanation for it is, the 187 is probably the worst DLC released for TSW quality-wise. And the fact that Skyhook have still not initiated communication with the community in any way (even just a standard response along the lines of we‘re aware of the issues but can‘t promise anything) doesn‘t do them any favours. All we‘ve heard is their statement for Sam which was not even meant for publication.
     
    • Like Like x 5
  41. VolvoB10M

    VolvoB10M Guest

    I am starting to notice SHG are following a trend a lot of companies are now following where they will aim to gain profit by aiming for new customers rather than retaining old ones. It is just like those I have seen videos of who bought Tesla cars when they started to trend about five years ago who are now getting charging system errors or other electrical problems. All of a sudden Tesla are unable to fix them, no independent mechanic will touch them and they are looking to spend £10K for repairs or end up with a rather expensive driveway ornament. Hoovie's Garage, Scotty Kilmer and multiple other YouTube channels will even back this up. When SHG have enough out of TSW they move to LMS to target customers from Giants Software. I think more companies should follow the Japanese standard of putting pride in to their work! I have never heard anyone who has owned a Toyota, Mazda or Honda vehicle say they would be reluctant to buy another one.

    Although I did not catch the live streams as they were on at the same time as Kitboga and I tend to like a bit of surprise when I buy new DLCs (although not like this) so I don't want the streams to spoil it too much but it sounds like they have thrown DTG under the metaphorical BR187 by what I have read. I don't even watch any previews or trailers from Armstrong Powerhouse before buying any enhancement or rolling stock packs as soon as they go on sale and I will continue to do so because I know his stuff is of top quality, but now I don't think I can buy any TSW content from now on without watching a 3rd party review on it even if it ends my "full house" collection of TSW 2 DLCs.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  42. dbrunner#4864

    dbrunner#4864 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2021
    Messages:
    392
    Likes Received:
    533
    Comparing someone of suck reputation and quality like AP to Skyhook is like comparing a Lamborghini to a trash compactor. There is a 3d party developer for TSW2 that does have the same reputation like you would expect from AP or JT etc,namely TSG (powered by Virtual Railroads)
     
    • Like Like x 3
  43. mclitke

    mclitke Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2020
    Messages:
    1,227
    Likes Received:
    2,758
    Good luck getting new customers with content that is flagged with "very negative" on steam...
     
    • Like Like x 5
  44. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2020
    Messages:
    11,729
    Likes Received:
    17,941
    That isn't a fair comment, because it ignores the legal realities. Skyhook and DTG have to get licenses for sounds, which modders don't (technically they do, but nobody sends lawyers after modders)
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2021
  45. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2021
    Messages:
    2,242
    Likes Received:
    3,735
    Which route of the 2 announced US freight will be made by skyhook?

    I hope dtg is making a hard point about quality control to them.
     
  46. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2020
    Messages:
    3,718
    Likes Received:
    6,162
    Skyhook is developing the Horseshoe Curve.
     
  47. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2020
    Messages:
    11,729
    Likes Received:
    17,941
    Did he do so with DB's consent?
     
  48. dbrunner#4864

    dbrunner#4864 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2021
    Messages:
    392
    Likes Received:
    533
    You don't have to get anything. Who records the sound, is the owner of the sound, the same as you are the owner of a picture / video of a train that you made. Also the license to create the BR 187 would include everything to it , as its not a license to only do the paint or wheels
     
  49. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2020
    Messages:
    11,729
    Likes Received:
    17,941
    That isn't necessarily true. For example, the ICE3 has been trademarked by DB; even if you make your own picture or video of one it can't be used commercially. The same applies to the Class 800 series (trademarked by Hitachi). And even in the case of things which are in the public domain, as I assume the sounds of the 187 are, one still has to be able to prove that they weren't obtained illegally, such as by trespassing on railway property.
     
  50. Maik Goltz

    Maik Goltz Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2016
    Messages:
    952
    Likes Received:
    4,345
    Just to clarify this. TSG has nothing to do with virtualRailroads nor is powered by it. It was more the opposite a long time :D
     
    • Like Like x 1

Share This Page